"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

bsoko2 -- IMHO, that is correct. However, you have to know that, whatever source you use for doing the manual setup, it is flat from at least 20Hz to 20KHz and that you are using a correct response curve (or correction table) for the SPL meter that you are using. It is my recollection that the AVIA test tones are not that accurate in the low frequencies, but the SD-DVD version of DVE is more accurate (I cannot prove this).

For the Radio Shack SPL meter correction tables, see this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=505236.

The low frequency end is given here: http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs-rscomp.cfm.

Here is the general AVS thread on manual speaker system calibration: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554.

Here is a link to Clint DeBoer's article on sub-woofer calibration: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...udio-test-cd-2. I have the tools that Clint talks about, and I have found that the results that the MCACC, on my VSX-1014, gives me are very close to what the manual testing provides. I haven't gotten my newer VSX-92TXH set up yet, so I have no data on the newer MCACC version results.

BTW, I have a 20 year old Velodyne UDL-15 sub (flat to 18Hz), a pair of 30+ year old JBL L96 semi-pro mains (re-coned woofers), a new Klipsch RC-62 center, and some inexpensive Radio Shack Optimus LX-5 (Lineaum) surrounds (they were real sleepers when they came out - thanks to an AVS member). It's a real mix (and not ideal), but they work quite well together when set up correctly.

GunDom -- For most speaker systems, setting the LFE crossover to 80Hz is recommended and setting all the speakers to small. The exceptions are when the main L/R speakers can't reproduce audio signals that are flat to below 80Hz (like most that have "woofers" that are 5" or smaller), or when the main speakers are flat to well below 45Hz. In the first case, the LFE will have to be set higher (like 100Hz or even 120Hz). In the latter case, going to 60Hz may sound better.

All you have to do is to run the Automatic version of MCACC. It will do your setup for you. The only thing you need to do, after MCACC completes its calibration, is to reset all of your speakers to "Small" (see below). Be sure to read your Pioneer manual (in section 02 - "5 Minute Guide") on how to run the MCACC before you start, so that you are doing it correctly (like turning off all noise sources, and positioning the, included, microphone correctly).

In some Pioneer AVR's (most, AFIK) the MCACC will automatically set the mains to large (for its calibration run), and will not reset them after it's done. Therefore, that will have to be done manually (per the manual).

MCACC is much more adjustable now than when the 1014 was produced. After MCACC is run (including the custom setting for the three EQ's) you will need to choose what EQ setting you want for your speakers (symmetry, front align, and all ch adjust). I prefer the audio output of All Channel Adjust as it sounds better in my large room (6000 cu feet).

Bill
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post #272 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 08:07 AM
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I read a couple of posts in this thread that suggest running the auto MCACC calibration, then setting the fronts to small, then running a custom MCACC calibration.

If I run the auto MCACC and it sets the fronts to large, then I go in and change the fronts to small, have I now somehow altered the calibration, and is it necessary to run the custom MCACC to achieve a correct calibration?
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post #273 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

I use Pure Direct for my 2 channel music listening needs. Stereo modes are less than appealing for some reason, but Pure Direct sounds amazing!

Is there an equivalent on older flagships? I have a 59 and all I can see is stream direct.

thx

bob
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post #274 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOG9 View Post

I read a couple of posts in this thread that suggest running the auto MCACC calibration, then setting the fronts to small, then running a custom MCACC calibration.

If I run the auto MCACC and it sets the fronts to large, then I go in and change the fronts to small, have I now somehow altered the calibration, and is it necessary to run the custom MCACC to achieve a correct calibration?

You could do a THX run or just re-do the EQ, prefereably the Pro eq w/ reverb measurements.


bob
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post #275 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 06:13 PM
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I just put together a new system with Paradigm Studio 100 fronts, CC-690 center, Studio 20 surrounds and the new Sub 15 subwoofer (all v.5) and am driving it with a Pioneer SC-05. I have run the MCACC calibration and am OK with the balance -- for the most part, but the system has way too much reverb. My room is average sized at about 12x11 (part of a larger room at 12 x 18).

I can't find how to do manual EQ adjustments for frequency response and the reverb is way WAY too much.

So, ...

1. How do I make manual adjustment to the EQ? The SC-05 has a 9 band graphic EQ that I'd like to tweak but I can't figure out how to do so.

2. How do I reduce the reverb?


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post #276 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

[u]GunDom -- For most speaker systems, setting the LFE crossover to 80Hz is recommended and setting all the speakers to small. The exceptions are when the main L/R speakers can't reproduce audio signals that are flat to below 80Hz (like most that have "woofers" that are 5" or smaller), or when the main speakers are flat to well below 45Hz. In the first case, the LFE will have to be set higher (like 100Hz or even 120Hz). In the latter case, going to 60Hz may sound better.

All you have to do is to run the Automatic version of MCACC. It will do your setup for you. The only thing you need to do, after MCACC completes its calibration, is to reset all of your speakers to "Small" (see below). Be sure to read your Pioneer manual (in section 02 - "5 Minute Guide") on how to run the MCACC before you start, so that you are doing it correctly (like turning off all noise sources, and positioning the, included, microphone correctly).

In some Pioneer AVR's (most, AFIK) the MCACC will automatically set the mains to large (for its calibration run), and will not reset them after it's done. Therefore, that will have to be done manually (per the manual).

Sorry I wasn't clear on my question. That was for my sub - Energy with 8" front firing with 1 port in the back. The diagram stated 80Hz at volume level 7. So should I keep it at the recommended 80hz for the sub as well, or go down to 50Hz before I set the MCACC?
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post #277 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOG9 View Post

I read a couple of posts in this thread that suggest running the auto MCACC calibration, then setting the fronts to small, then running a custom MCACC calibration.

If I run the auto MCACC and it sets the fronts to large, then I go in and change the fronts to small, have I now somehow altered the calibration, and is it necessary to run the custom MCACC to achieve a correct calibration?

I think speaker setting affects crossover. If you set to LARGE I think your eq will be applied to lower frequencies. Seems like I remember seeing a lower eq setting when I had mine set to LARGE. Not at home or I would check.

I don't think you need to re-run unless you are unhappy with the eq and want to run different delays for acquisition of the sound for processing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptorsys View Post

I just put together a new system with Paradigm Studio 100 fronts, CC-690 center, Studio 20 surrounds and the new Sub 15 subwoofer (all v.5) and am driving it with a Pioneer SC-05. I have run the MCACC calibration and am OK with the balance -- for the most part, but the system has way too much reverb. My room is average sized at about 12x11 (part of a larger room at 12 x 18).

I can't find how to do manual EQ adjustments for frequency response and the reverb is way WAY too much.

So, ...

1. How do I make manual adjustment to the EQ? The SC-05 has a 9 band graphic EQ that I'd like to tweak but I can't figure out how to do so.

2. How do I reduce the reverb?


Brian

1. Manual MCCAC/Manual EQ adjust/ Select speaker and Frequency to adjust.

2. Since your room is so small try shorter delay(ms) in Manual MCCAC/ EQ Pro/

If you have serious reverb, EQ is just a band-aid, and might not cure the problem. Try to soften the space with acoustic treatment if you can.
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post #278 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 10:35 PM
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I found some tips I thought I would pass along.....

First, a tripod makes a big difference. I used a step ladder on the couch until I got a tripod for a camera and used it.
1. distances were accurate within an inch or two.
2. EQ anomalies were gone.
3. speaker level was dead on with spl

Second use thick blankets or other absorbent material to drape over the couch (especially if its leather or other hard surface) during auto calibration.

1. This improved my calibration because normally we're sitting on the couch and are less reflective than the leather couch itself.

Hope this helps someone......
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post #279 of 5669 Old 02-15-2009, 11:43 PM
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GunDom -- Yes, leave the sub at 80Hz.

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post #280 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post

Does MCACC check speaker phase? I had a Sony that would tell me if any of my speakers were wired incorrectly. I have never received this message with MCACC. Perhaps they are wired correctly and I just don't get the message. I would like to know for sure however.

Stupid question? Not sure. Yes it does. No it doesn't. It does on the 94 but not on the 91.
Would anyone be willing to choose one of the above answers?

Perhaps I misremembered.

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post #281 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 11:09 AM
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I've run the auto MCACC through my VSX01 (by itself) and now after with my new NAD M25 amp and both times the system set the eq to such a bright sound it is intolerable. I go into the eq settings and pretty much all speakers have 500hz and lower set in the moderate to deep negative numbers, yet 4kHz and up are at least +4db and in the case of my front 3 speakers 8 and 16Khz we at +8.

Sure the sound is open and wide, but the midrange and bass seems completely sucked out.

I can say, without a doubt, that the MCACC does not sound nice. Again, my sound stage widened, but it is overtly bright and gives audio fatigue.

I have re-adjusted the eq to better suit my ears temporarily, until I can do a better job with an spl meter.

Any thoughts on this?

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post #282 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

I've run the auto MCACC through my VSX01 (by itself) and now after with my new NAD M25 amp and both times the system set the eq to such a bright sound it is intolerable. I go into the eq settings and pretty much all speakers have 500hz and lower set in the moderate to deep negative numbers, yet 4kHz and up are at least +4db and in the case of my front 3 speakers 8 and 16Khz we at +8.

Sure the sound is open and wide, but the midrange and bass seems completely sucked out.

I can say, without a doubt, that the MCACC does not sound nice. Again, my sound stage widened, but it is overtly bright and gives audio fatigue.

I have re-adjusted the eq to better suit my ears temporarily, until I can do a better job with an spl meter.

Any thoughts on this?


You need to run EQ pro, and use an earlier capture time say 30-50ms. MCACC thinks you have an overly reflective reverby room.




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post #283 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDom View Post

Sorry I wasn't clear on my question. That was for my sub - Energy with 8" front firing with 1 port in the back. The diagram stated 80Hz at volume level 7. So should I keep it at the recommended 80hz for the sub as well, or go down to 50Hz before I set the MCACC?

The best thing is to let the AVR do all of the bass management. That means bypassing the sub's built-in crossover network if possible, or moving it to it's highest setting. Having two crossover networks at or near the same frequency can lead to undesirable sonic effects and should be avoided.
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post #284 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

You need to run EQ pro, and use an earlier capture time say 30-50ms. MCACC thinks you have an overly reflective reverby room.

Or even 20-40


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post #285 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Or even 20-40


bob

30-50 was what it was set on out of the box. I will try 20-40, or even 10-30.

The room is a typical room, 20' long by 12' wide, 7.5' ceiling, carpet floor, open concept to kitchen with some leather furniture.

But the brightness of the sound is quite sharp to my ears.

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post #286 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Or even 20-40


bob


So if you reduce the capture delay will you increase the amount of reverb the receiver produces? That is, if you have more reverb than you want should you increase the delay or decrease it?

If MACCA "thinks" the room has too much reverb then it should tend to compensate by producing less reverb and conversly, if MACCA thinks the room is too flat and has too little reverb then it should tend to produce more. So, if his room is dead and MACCA "sees" this it should increase the amount of reverb -- correct?


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post #287 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptorsys View Post

So if you reduce the capture delay will you increase the amount of reverb the receiver produces? That is, if you have more reverb than you want should you increase the delay or decrease it?

If MACCA "thinks" the room has too much reverb then it should tend to compensate by producing less reverb and conversly, if MACCA thinks the room is too flat and has too little reverb then it should tend to produce more. So, if his room is dead and MACCA "sees" this it should increase the amount of reverb -- correct?


Brian

MCACC doesn't "produce" or "decrease" reverb. It just measures the reverb in the room and you can use that measurement to decide when to measure the frequency response -- early (more speaker) or late (more room) -- to get something that sounds decent.

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post #288 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 06:37 PM
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What content is he listening to? Is the reverb subwoofer related?

Bill
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post #289 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

GunDom -- Yes, leave the sub at 80Hz.

Hmmm... too late. I ended up setting it before someone responded. I had it at 55Hz. It seems okay, but I do need to get a better Sub that can handle lows. That's next years' target. I guess I'll redo MCACC once I get the Def Tech Fronts and Center in 2-3 months.
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post #290 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

I've run the auto MCACC through my VSX01 (by itself) and now after with my new NAD M25 amp and both times the system set the eq to such a bright sound it is intolerable. I go into the eq settings and pretty much all speakers have 500hz and lower set in the moderate to deep negative numbers, yet 4kHz and up are at least +4db and in the case of my front 3 speakers 8 and 16Khz we at +8.

Sure the sound is open and wide, but the midrange and bass seems completely sucked out.

I can say, without a doubt, that the MCACC does not sound nice. Again, my sound stage widened, but it is overtly bright and gives audio fatigue.

I have re-adjusted the eq to better suit my ears temporarily, until I can do a better job with an spl meter.

Any thoughts on this?

1. Are you using a tripod or mic stand? This can make a huge difference in the sound the mic picks up. Set at ear level?
2. Try later settings on MCCAC. The manual says earlier settings are normally to correct boomy rooms, or the opposite of what you are describing.
3. Cover those leather couches with blankets when you run MCCAC.
4. Check X-curve make sure its not turned up abnormally high.
5. If it works fine without the amp, run it without the amp to get the eq right, then install the amp, and spl to level match. This should work if the amp's color is not too much different from that of the Pio.

BTW those numbers don't seem normal at all compared to what I am used to seeing. Normally I see either a boost or trim of +/- 3db at each band, if its done more I "normalize" it closer to the +/-3db range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

MCACC doesn't "produce" or "decrease" reverb. It just measures the reverb in the room and you can use that measurement to decide when to measure the frequency response -- early (more speaker) or late (more room) -- to get something that sounds decent.

Reverbrant frequencies can boost or cancel each other out. While reverb is a room characteristic, its affect on perceived sound can be reduced by boosting/trimming frequencies that are experiencing reinforcement or cancellation.
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post #291 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 07:25 PM
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If you dont have a tripod like myself, you can use a yard stick. I use a piece of double sided tape and attach the mic to the top of the yard stick. Then I wedge it between the couch cushions Works well!




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post #292 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

30-50 was what it was set on out of the box. I will try 20-40, or even 10-30.

The room is a typical room, 20' long by 12' wide, 7.5' ceiling, carpet floor, open concept to kitchen with some leather furniture.

But the brightness of the sound is quite sharp to my ears.

Where and how is your mic placement?


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post #293 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

MCACC doesn't "produce" or "decrease" reverb. It just measures the reverb in the room and you can use that measurement to decide when to measure the frequency response -- early (more speaker) or late (more room) -- to get something that sounds decent.

Unless he's using one of those crazy "sci-fi" listening modes


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post #294 of 5669 Old 02-16-2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

If you dont have a tripod like myself, you can use a yard stick. I use a piece of double sided tape and attach the mic to the top of the yard stick. Then I wedge it between the couch cushions Works well!

I place it on top of one of my kids toy castles which is almost exactly "ear" height.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #295 of 5669 Old 02-17-2009, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

bsoko2 -- IMHO, that is correct. However, you have to know that, whatever source you use for doing the manual setup, it is flat from at least 20Hz to 20KHz and that you are using a correct response curve (or correction table) for the SPL meter that you are using. It is my recollection that the AVIA test tones are not that accurate in the low frequencies, but the SD-DVD version of DVE is more accurate (I cannot prove this).

For the Radio Shack SPL meter correction tables, see this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=505236.

The low frequency end is given here: http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs-rscomp.cfm.

Here is the general AVS thread on manual speaker system calibration: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554.

Here is a link to Clint DeBoer's article on sub-woofer calibration: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...udio-test-cd-2. I have the tools that Clint talks about, and I have found that the results that the MCACC, on my VSX-1014, gives me are very close to what the manual testing provides. I haven't gotten my newer VSX-92TXH set up yet, so I have no data on the newer MCACC version results.

BTW, I have a 20 year old Velodyne UDL-15 sub (flat to 18Hz), a pair of 30+ year old JBL L96 semi-pro mains (re-coned woofers), a new Klipsch RC-62 center, and some inexpensive Radio Shack Optimus LX-5 (Lineaum) surrounds (they were real sleepers when they came out - thanks to an AVS member). It's a real mix (and not ideal), but they work quite well together when set up correctly.

GunDom -- For most speaker systems, setting the LFE crossover to 80Hz is recommended and setting all the speakers to small. The exceptions are when the main L/R speakers can't reproduce audio signals that are flat to below 80Hz (like most that have "woofers" that are 5" or smaller), or when the main speakers are flat to well below 45Hz. In the first case, the LFE will have to be set higher (like 100Hz or even 120Hz). In the latter case, going to 60Hz may sound better.

All you have to do is to run the Automatic version of MCACC. It will do your setup for you. The only thing you need to do, after MCACC completes its calibration, is to reset all of your speakers to "Small" (see below). Be sure to read your Pioneer manual (in section 02 - "5 Minute Guide") on how to run the MCACC before you start, so that you are doing it correctly (like turning off all noise sources, and positioning the, included, microphone correctly).

In some Pioneer AVR's (most, AFIK) the MCACC will automatically set the mains to large (for its calibration run), and will not reset them after it's done. Therefore, that will have to be done manually (per the manual).

I posted a few pages back, but in my case, I also own a Velodyne ULD-15 subwoofer, When playing in Stereo mode, the system sounds abysmal . It could be that the crossover setting needs to be changed on the sub, but, one way or another, more work needs to be done as auto calibration is not working for me.
How many of you have listened to music in stereo mode ?
I would be interested to hear if most of you are getting great sound when listening to music.
For movies, the sound is what appears to be "good", but, without a reference point, its really difficult to tell its good or not as a movie changes sound frequently between center and side speakers.
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post #296 of 5669 Old 02-17-2009, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by lexicon1 View Post

I posted a few pages back, but in my case, I also own a Velodyne ULD-15 subwoofer, When playing in Stereo mode, the system sounds abysmal . It could be that the crossover setting needs to be changed on the sub, but, one way or another, more work needs to be done as auto calibration is not working for me.
How many of you have listened to music in stereo mode ?
I would be interested to hear if most of you are getting great sound when listening to music.
For movies, the sound is what appears to be "good", but, without a reference point, its really difficult to tell its good or not as a movie changes sound frequently between center and side speakers.

I only listen in Stereo, large, sub "+". This is with B&W 805's, 2 way 6" 1" tweet. I have found that night mode adds a fullness at lower volumes even better than loudness. Discoverd that by mistake whrn night was left on!


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post #297 of 5669 Old 02-17-2009, 01:04 AM
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lexicon1 -- For stereo, you have 2 choices, plain "Stereo" and "Stereo Direct" (push the "Stereo" button twice). The latter bypasses the MCACC calibration entirely (sometimes that can sound better, depending on how good your L/R speakers are and room conditions).

As spongebob said, if you use SW (sub-woofer) set to "Plus", then it will add the sub to the L/R speakers for more low bass sounds (see the SW setup in your manual).

Ryan Peddle -- You definitely have to cover the leather furniture with a blanket (as NicksHitachi said). Leather is very sonically reflective and will give you a bad MCACC calibration.

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post #298 of 5669 Old 02-17-2009, 06:42 AM
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I will take all the advice I found here and try to apply it over the next few days. As it stands right now, the MCACC is turned off and the sound is quite pleasant. The NAD M25 amp made a big difference over the Pio.

I'll keep on tweekin'!

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post #299 of 5669 Old 02-17-2009, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Ryan Peddle -- You definitely have to cover the leather furniture with a blanket (as NicksHitachi said). Leather is very sonically reflective and will give you a bad MCACC calibration.

I can understand this, but if this is the case, shouldn't the couch be covered all the time, even when listening?

If it's so reflective and you have to calibrate with it covered, you are throwing off the calibration when you remove the blanket, so what's the point?

Just thinking out loud here...
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post #300 of 5669 Old 02-17-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Ryan Peddle -- You definitely have to cover the leather furniture with a blanket (as NicksHitachi said). Leather is very sonically reflective and will give you a bad MCACC calibration.

If you do a temporary "cheat" on your ambient condition what purpose does that serve unless you keep it there. Why not let MCACC show you where you're having difficulties. It does a great job at that.

I have an opposite problem, an overstuffed suede couch somewhat in the line of fire from my right surround. I had earlier posted pics showing a very weak low frequency response from that speaker. MCACC did compensate by bringing up the EQ to compensate in the low Hz band(s) but nonetheless, I had placement issues.

I repositioned the speaker a tad and re-ran, it still had to juice up the low end (that's what its there for) but not as much. The attached pics show before and after:

Since I can see where I may have a problem (it could have also been a weak or stiff driver) MCACC once again gives us the tools to make many adjustments, level, room acoustics, etc.

Apologies zboomer, you were posting as I was typing
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