"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 101 - AVS Forum
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post #3001 of 5544 Old 02-14-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksubrama View Post

+2.

Dev,
The immediate thing to try is the "All Ch Adj" setting. Ultimately it depends on too many factors in your listening environment, but I first ran MCACC with "symmetry" and was underwhelmed with the AQ. After reading this thread and the SC-37 thread (my receiver), I gave "All Ch Adj" a shot and the difference was night and day in my setup.

Hope this works out for you.

KS

The other thing is that that the greater the difference in your speakers, the worse IMO that 'symmetry' is going to do. I have Mythos ST fronts, Mythos 9 center and Gem XL surrounds (before that, StudioMonitor 350s), and I always felt that the reduced capability to reproduce 'full range' on the surrounds - both in terms of the size of the woofers and the range of the tweeters - was limiting what MCACC could do in one pass with symmetry. Independent adjustment of the channels would seem more logical with that setup, and the better range of the fronts came out comparatively more balanced - and with a very wide soundstage up front once dialed in - with "All Ch Adj".

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post #3002 of 5544 Old 02-14-2012, 10:14 AM
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[quote=devgcl;21640582]Hi,
Hope some experts pitch in for my post ... I am trying to get the most of MCACC.
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by devgcl View Post

Please Help me!
I have read all the posts. Tried first page and several variations as suggested by many good postings (this thread rocks!!!.)
I used to calibrate without a tripod and got a good SQ in Memory4 (Symmetry, default time). It sounds excellent except slight overpowering on
QUOTE}

Dave,

Sadly there's no easy answer. It's a very time consuming process if you want to tweak as you seem to do.

My advice would be to first run MCACC to properly setup your listening position. This will correctly set the speaker distances, room correction etc.

You've done this using a stand and have the data. Copy that data onto Memory's 1 thru 4. Now using the same stand, run the EQ setup for Memory1.

If you like the EQ settings for a particular Memory you have now, write them down and compare to the new one derived in the new test. If it's better, ear wise, than what was accomplished for the EQ run, over ride it with the data from the EQ settings you wrote down.

Go to Memory 2 and tweak to fine tune it and go back and forth between 1 and 2 while listening to see if the tweaks made a positive difference. If, after much work, you like 2 better than 1, copy 2 to 1 and start the process over again.

After all this work you will end up with a few Memory settings for different inputs such as movies, music and TV. I've also found for the subwoofer speaker settings, it's better to reduce the subwoofer volume in MCACC while turning up the actual volume knob on the subwoofer to achieve a more detailed presentation. My subwoofer volume in MCACC for movies is set to -9 and for music -5 while keeping the volume knob on the subwoofer a little over half output. My theory is to allow for the amp in the subwoofer to achieve a broader amplification band rather than having 0 in MCACC and the sub set to a 1/4 turn in amplification.

I can't stress this enough, use GOOD source material like a movie with balanced not bloated bass or highs. Do it over a few days too, take a break. After a few hours your ears are not good anymore. Save where you are and give it a day. Also, get use the fact that some source material won't sound like what YOU want it to, it just is what it is. If you set it up properly, with a good source or a range of sources, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I hope this helps and kiss your next few weeks goodbye...
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post #3003 of 5544 Old 02-14-2012, 05:32 PM
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Dan (Info_dan) Agree I got carried away by looking for a quick reply... shows how passionate I got despite being a newbie.
I will try posting on SC35/37 official page.
Very helpful on explaining why I can't select THX Select 2 everytime...
Much appreciated.

DonH50 I will try changing the speakers as suggested. Good pointers...

KS (Ksubrama), sdrucker, I will definitely give more focus to "All Ch Adj" in my new tweak series. I am looking for that wide sounstage in front as I got from Memory 4 hence thanks for sharing your experience.

brianlsu I actually tried the Eq override from Memory 4 to another memory. I even tried copying the channel levels and standing waves separately but nothing came as "open stage" as memory 4. But I don't use Memory 4 as I can hear more sound in Memory 5 (memory 5 misses the "open stage" in front). I will definitely try the subwoofer setting. Great suggestion mate!!!

I am off to more hard work.... BTW love the Pio - day and night difference compared to my onkyo.

Thanks again
Dave
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post #3004 of 5544 Old 02-15-2012, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

The other thing is that that the greater the difference in your speakers, the worse IMO that 'symmetry' is going to do. I have Mythos ST fronts, Mythos 9 center and Gem XL surrounds (before that, StudioMonitor 350s), and I always felt that the reduced capability to reproduce 'full range' on the surrounds - both in terms of the size of the woofers and the range of the tweeters - was limiting what MCACC could do in one pass with symmetry. Independent adjustment of the channels would seem more logical with that setup, and the better range of the fronts came out comparatively more balanced - and with a very wide soundstage up front once dialed in - with "All Ch Adj".

Interesting comments sdrucker; my surrounds are nothing like the front speakers so giving "All Ch Adj" may well give me better results than Symmetry currently has.
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post #3005 of 5544 Old 02-15-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devgcl View Post

Please Help me!
I have read all the posts. Tried first page and several variations as suggested by many good postings (this thread rocks!!!.)
I used to calibrate without a tripod and got a good SQ in Memory4 (Symmetry, default time). It sounds excellent except slight overpowering on left.
I bought a tripod and the best calibrated one is saved in Memory 5 (symmetry, 30-50 ms). This gives some more detailed sound (esp on higher freq). However, I find the overall music less 'opened', voice slightly muffled than Memory 4. Memory 5 (tripod one) is tighter, voice tighter and overall too 'firm'. Music sounds better in Memory 4 (non-tripod measured) sometimes. Still there is something is better in Memory 5 (tripod measured).
Questions
1. What can I tweak in Memory 5 to take the more 'open' soundstage of Memory 4?
2. Below are my readings... is there anything else I can change based on my results?


BTW, my room has carpets. Pio is SC-35 or LX73. I have Primus speakers (C25 centre, C360 main, C250 others, sub). Sub XOver is max, level dialled halfway. I like PLIIX for music and PLIIX+THX for movies (THX Select 2 rarely appears - don't know why??).
Reverb Before
Attachment 236978

Reverb After
Attachment 236977

Setting, Level, Distance
Attachment 236980

Standing Wave
Attachment 236981

Eq Cal
Attachment 236979

How do you post your MCACC data on the forum? Could never figure out how.

Your reverb graphs look really flat by the way. Mine are never that flat. The center and surrounds get close, but the fronts are always off.

Is your room treated?

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post #3006 of 5544 Old 02-15-2012, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devgcl View Post

Also, get use the fact that some source material won't sound like what YOU want it to, it just is what it is. If you set it up properly, with a good source or a range of sources, you'll see what I'm talking about.

It took me awhile to realise this.

With some movies i use to think my speakers weren't setup right. It sounded bad. I use to run MCACC over and over just from hearing those bad sources.

Then with other movies my speakers sound fantastic. Dialog, front soundstage, and surrounds. I then told myself it's not the speakers that sound bad, but the movie thats making my speakers sound bad. I guess i should be happy my speakers are playing exactly whats being fed to it.

Garbage in, garbage out.

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post #3007 of 5544 Old 02-15-2012, 02:54 PM
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Hi Saprano,
SO it's good the reverb are flat - right?
Posting pics is easy... use attachment in the reply icon
My room has carpets hence not that reverbing... I wonder I should use 60-80 ms or leave the default Full Auto MCAA (80-160 I think)
Regards
Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

How do you post your MCACC data on the forum? Could never figure out how.

Your reverb graphs look really flat by the way. Mine are never that flat. The center and surrounds get close, but the fronts are always off.

Is your room treated?

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post #3008 of 5544 Old 02-15-2012, 05:18 PM
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Question for the forum, just got a Pioneer Elite VSX-53 after my Onkyo 807 shot craps. I have Def Tech 8060 towers for my fronts with 10" powered subs along with a supercube subwoofer. Would you guys recommend setting the fronts to "large" given the powered subs? MCACC setup put them to small. Not sure if I should leave them on small with 80hz xo. I haven't had the time to experiment with multiple MCACC settings. Thx
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post #3009 of 5544 Old 02-15-2012, 06:27 PM
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Hi,
Here are my updates...
Tried some minor speaker position change. Tried subwoofer level change (to use more subwoofer amplication as suggested). Tried "All Ch Adj". Also tried a different microphone position (more centered).

Overall, the sound has improved but not significantly. Feel a bit more front stage, more dynamics. "All Ch Adj" slightly better than symmetry (but minimal).

Below are my readings:
Memory 2 & 6 based on "All Ch Adj"
Memory 4 based on symmetry to get reverb view before and after
Remaining questions I have:
1. I used 60-80 ms for manual calibration based on the graph. Is this the right choice or should I go for 30-50 ms?
2. I see the centre not flat even after calibration. Is there anything else I should do?
3. Is it OK if I put my surround back speakers at the same volume level as we have a long sofa parallel to back speakers?
Thanks again


Before Reverb
Attachment 237385

After Reverb - Memory 4 Symmetry
Attachment 237387

After Reverb Frequency Memory 4
Attachment 237386

Settings
Attachment 237389

Eq Cal
Attachment 237388
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #3010 of 5544 Old 02-16-2012, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlsu View Post

I've also found for the subwoofer speaker settings, it's better to reduce the subwoofer volume in MCACC while turning up the actual volume knob on the subwoofer to achieve a more detailed presentation. My subwoofer volume in MCACC for movies is set to -9 and for music -5 while keeping the volume knob on the subwoofer a little over half output. My theory is to allow for the amp in the subwoofer to achieve a broader amplification band rather than having 0 in MCACC and the sub set to a 1/4 turn in amplification.

I am glad you have managed to make your system sound the way you want it to but this is not good advice to be giving to someone else.
Your posts in the subwoofer thread indicate that you do not understand the relationship of the subs volume control and the AVR channel level.
The way you are adjusting the sub will almost certainly result in it being over driven, perhaps to the point of failure.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #3011 of 5544 Old 02-16-2012, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devgcl View Post

Hi Saprano,
SO it's good the reverb are flat - right?
Posting pics is easy... use attachment in the reply icon
My room has carpets hence not that reverbing... I wonder I should use 60-80 ms or leave the default Full Auto MCAA (80-160 I think)
Regards
Dave

Flat reverb is good, yes. I only have a large area rug in front of my system but that alone helped ALOT with the major slap echo i had. I have no more echo and the sound is more controlled. It's amazing how that one area of absorption affects the rest of the sound.

I know how to post images on the forum, but how do you capture the MCACC images?

home theater addict
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post #3012 of 5544 Old 02-16-2012, 04:54 PM
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1. In Pio, go to Data Management menu -> Choose option to copy data
Make sure USB is plugged to Receiver before the Copy.
The above depends on the Pio model you have (my LX73/SC35 supports USB)

2. Download MCACC software from US Pioneer site (for your model) then open file copied in USB

3. Voila, you will see all the data on screen which you can copy or save as you want

Hope this helps
Dave



Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Flat reverb is good, yes. I only have a large area rug in front of my system but that alone helped ALOT with the major slap echo i had. I have no more echo and the sound is more controlled. It's amazing how that one area of absorption affects the rest of the sound.

I know how to post images on the forum, but how do you capture the MCACC images?

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post #3013 of 5544 Old 02-17-2012, 12:18 PM
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I don't think I've seen this mentioned in the ~100 pages of the thread, but on the newer receivers at least, you can download the MCACC data directly from the receiver via your web browser.

This works on my VSX-53, haven't tried on any other setup of course.

A lot easier than fiddling with USB drives, to be sure.


(I swear MCACC wasn't designed to make audio sound better so much as give us something to do. "Man, that sounds good. I wonder if I could tweak it to sound a *little* bit better..." xRepeat for several hours a week)
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post #3014 of 5544 Old 02-17-2012, 04:01 PM
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On my SC-27 you have to get a null serial cable and USB adapter (if your PC does not have an RS232 port). Having to use a USB stick would be fine with me. I don't have a network connection in the meda room anyway.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #3015 of 5544 Old 02-17-2012, 05:04 PM
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When using the MCACC 5, most likely MCACC did no corrections to the channel. No filters are used and the sound is louder. This may work ok for music and not so much for HT. The reference level will not be at 0. It may be at -5 or -10.

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post #3016 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 04:19 AM
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Hi DerrickDJ1,
How do I ensure channels are corrected and reference level set to zero.?
Thank you
Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

When using the MCACC 5, most likely MCACC did no corrections to the channel. No filters are used and the sound is louder. This may work ok for music and not so much for HT. The reference level will not be at 0. It may be at -5 or -10.

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post #3017 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

On my SC-27 you have to get a null serial cable and USB adapter (if your PC does not have an RS232 port). Having to use a USB stick would be fine with me. I don't have a network connection in the meda room anyway.

Sorry where does one plug the USD stick? I have the RS232 to USB cable, but could not get the devices to sync. Well it did, but then flashed a message that the file was too big to transfer. So can this be done direct to a USB stick? If so, please share.

I ran another full calibration tonight and also decided to measure the levels with a digital SPL meter (which displays in 0.1dB increments and is calibrate-able) to see how close to +75dB the channels actually were.

On average, they were at least 2dB too low with the Centre channel about 1.5dB too loud. No wonder the program I had been watching sounded very 'mono'. Listened again after calibration with the meter and a completely different story.

Question: When using 3 point measuring with the MCACC mic, where does one then place the SLP meter? I used a tripod for both the mic and meter if that matters any.

Should I measure at the same three points with both the mic and meter, and average the results?

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post #3018 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devgcl View Post

1. In Pio, go to Data Management menu -> Choose option to copy data
Make sure USB is plugged to Receiver before the Copy.
The above depends on the Pio model you have (my LX73/SC35 supports USB)

2. Download MCACC software from US Pioneer site (for your model) then open file copied in USB

3. Voila, you will see all the data on screen which you can copy or save as you want

Hope this helps
Dave

I just remembered i already asked how to do this a few pages back. But it doesn't work when open it as an attachment. I get a but a bunch of letters.

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post #3019 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 02:10 PM
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Do you have the Pioneer Advanced MCACC software installed on your computer when you are trying to open the file?

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post #3020 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 02:27 PM
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Anyone else have this problem with MCACC keeps setting sub to 25' and it is only 12' away but when I run ARC it sets it perfect.
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post #3021 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 03:06 PM
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^ The distance is not a physical distance, especially for the sub. It depends upon the processing and phase at the crossover/measurement point. Different algorithms treat it differently. MCACC may not be wrong in this case for the way it measures. There may also be room interactions affecting the phase reading. The only way to know is to measure.

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post #3022 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tooley View Post

Anyone else have this problem with MCACC keeps setting sub to 25' and it is only 12' away but when I run ARC it sets it perfect.

Sounds like it compensating for a phase difference. What happens when you reverse the sub phase on the actual SW?

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post #3023 of 5544 Old 02-19-2012, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tooley View Post

Anyone else have this problem with MCACC keeps setting sub to 25' and it is only 12' away but when I run ARC it sets it perfect.

My sub also get set much further than actual distance and after listening is indeed correct.

If I set sub to actual distance I loose bass!!! If using what measured distance was with mcacc the bass is perfect.

I can confirm that mcacc is correct with it's logic. As I used to own the audyssey sub EQ and it set values to same distance as mcacc and not actual.

Not sure what ARC is that you used. If it's the anthem version it does not do distance. You have to do that manually , as ARC only does levels, and EQ.

Hope this helps anyway.
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post #3024 of 5544 Old 02-20-2012, 11:37 PM
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I'm looking for suggestions on the best scenes to use as a reference when comparing different audio configurations and settings after running MCACC.

Ideally, I'm looking for scenes that have a good representation of the full audio spectrum produced in the highest quality possible so I can listen to and compare the bass, mids, and highs between the possible audio configurations.

Any suggestions?
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post #3025 of 5544 Old 02-21-2012, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpaccio View Post

I'm looking for suggestions on the best scenes to use as a reference when comparing different audio configurations and settings after running MCACC.

Ideally, I'm looking for scenes that have a good representation of the full audio spectrum produced in the highest quality possible so I can listen to and compare the bass, mids, and highs between the possible audio configurations.

Any suggestions?

Got any DVD-A/SACD discs? Linkin Park - Reanimation [DVD-A], Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon [SACD, BD] Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms [DVD-A, SACD].

As for films CH3 of TERMINATOR 3 RISE OF THE MACHINES, CH28 of STAR WARS ATTACK OF THE CLONES. beach sequence from SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.

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post #3026 of 5544 Old 02-21-2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Got any DVD-A/SACD discs? Linkin Park - Reanimation [DVD-A], Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon [SACD, BD] Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms [DVD-A, SACD].

As for films CH3 of TERMINATOR 3 RISE OF THE MACHINES, CH28 of STAR WARS ATTACK OF THE CLONES. beach sequence from SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.

Thanks for the suggestion! I don't have any DVD-A/SACDs. Maybe I should look into the Dark Side of the Moon disc you mentioned (since Pink Floyd is my favorite group).

I listened to chapter 28 of Attack of the Clones tonight and it sounds good. I may use that as a benchmark.

As a side note, if I own the same movie on DVD as well as on Blu-ray, will the audio sound the same on both versions on the movie?
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post #3027 of 5544 Old 02-21-2012, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRussell View Post

Do you have the Pioneer Advanced MCACC software installed on your computer when you are trying to open the file?

Everything works fine on my computer. It's when i try to upload them to the forum it doesn't work.

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post #3028 of 5544 Old 02-21-2012, 11:06 PM
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Few questions.. i've fun the mcacc test a few times but i'm still trying to tweak my audio settings... I'll start by saying i'm not using a subwoofer. I have 5 speaker setup. Typically I listen to music with just the front 2 channels which are jbl 180's. I like some bass I have setting for large speaker, but i can't seem to get the highs and treble i want. It also doesn't allow me to adjust bass and treble specifically in audio paramaters.

I also have the iphone app to adjust the equalizer but i'm not sure which levels adjust what!

any opinions for optimal settings for loud volume house/techno music would be appreciated! Stream Direct? Auto Surround? etc etc....Thanks!
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post #3029 of 5544 Old 02-21-2012, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpaccio View Post

Thanks for the suggestion! I don't have any DVD-A/SACDs. Maybe I should look into the Dark Side of the Moon disc you mentioned (since Pink Floyd is my favorite group).

I listened to chapter 28 of Attack of the Clones tonight and it sounds good. I may use that as a benchmark.

Just to clarify, chapter 28 is the asteroid chase? It was so on the R4 DVD.

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Originally Posted by Carpaccio View Post

As a side note, if I own the same movie on DVD as well as on Blu-ray, will the audio sound the same on both versions on the movie?

It should sound better on BD if you can hear the lossless audio verses the lossy audio of DVD. The mix should be the same for both.

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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Everything works fine on my computer. It's when i try to upload them to the forum it doesn't work.

Can you do a screen cap, save as a JPEG and upload that?

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
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post #3030 of 5544 Old 02-21-2012, 11:33 PM
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Just to clarify, chapter 28 is the asteroid chase? It was so on the R4 DVD.

Yep! I also thought of the opening battle scene in Transformers 1 and the school courtyard battle scene in The Incredible Hulk.

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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

It should sound better on BD if you can hear the lossless audio verses the lossy audio of DVD. The mix should be the same for both.

So, if I have a Pioneer VSX-1021 and I have the audio set to "AUTO", am I experiencing lossless audio?
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