"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 105 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 10Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #3121 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 09:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

This makes the most sense to me. But, Rob from Velodyne just posted on the Velodyne thread his recommendation would be to run the SMS-1 first then MCACC Doh!

+1

that's not what I remember their main tech support man at the time (Curt?) told me when I got the DD18, maybe 6 yrs ago or so.

maybe Rob is not considering that standing wave/phase control is turned on by default in MCACC. I do know that those changed the response curve, so I ended up either turning them off or tweaking the curve some more. or maybe he's thinking it's like Audyssey. Interestingly, the SVS folks wrote the EQ1 manual recommending that if using a room correction system other than audyssey, run it 1st just like we've been saying Only D-Nice said do it the opposite (what Rob is now saying) & gave his reasons why but that system has much more complex level matching procedures, etc, which make it unique and really different than Velodyne's simple-by-comparison parametric EQ.

Unless I read & understand his reasoning, I stand by my own experiences which make more logical sense to me

I say potato, you say potahto

Steve
ss9001 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3122 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 09:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Legairre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Running the SMS-1 after MCACC can change the sub level up or down since we are EQing the sub we are effecting the level after we already ran MCACC. I always run MCACC, then SMS-1 calibration and then I rerun the MCACC but only the channel levels.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

Legairre is online now  
post #3123 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 09:29 AM
Member
 
Carpaccio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksubrama View Post

Depending on your room and Subwoofer, a safe starting point is between 9 - 12 O' clock. MCACC will let you know if LFE is too strong and then you can slowly start dialing down. On the other hand if MCACC comes back with + db compensation, you can increase the gain on the Sub. The goal for LFE is to get MCACC to leave CH level at 0. ( you can always make it hotter by a few db after calibration based on your preference).

Hth,
KS

Thank you for your reply. That makes sense.

Anybody else have any thoughts on this? Is this the general consensus?
Carpaccio is offline  
post #3124 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 09:32 AM
Member
 
Carpaccio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Almost anything (box, books, whatever) will be good enough to provide a 6" boost. Since it's directly below the mic, sonic influence is minimal. I would personally use phone books or something less likely to vibrate during the cal than an empty box.

Thank you for your advice. I'll look for something small and dense. I didn't think about that until you mentioned it.
Carpaccio is offline  
post #3125 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 09:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

I always run MCACC, then SMS-1 calibration and then I rerun the MCACC but only the channel levels.

that sounds like it could be optimal

can't argue with your reasoning on the channel levels...by doing it your way, you take all the factors into account. thanks for sharing that tip

Steve
ss9001 is offline  
post #3126 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 10:00 AM
Member
 
Carpaccio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The OP says Pioneer recommends data capture time period at 30 - 50ms, however, the Advanced MCACC Manual I just downloaded from here recommends 20 - 40ms.

Thoughts?
Carpaccio is offline  
post #3127 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 11:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 5,908
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 230
If the SMS handles phase then so long as levels are within the trim range of both units it should not matter since MCACC does not EQ the sub anyway. EXCEPT that it may "waste" one of the MCACC's PEQ filters on the bass, and force the SMS to "un-do" that...

I set mine up differently so did not really have this issue. Maybe I'll just go get a Denon.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
post #3128 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 12:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,443
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Maybe I'll just go get a Denon.

you wouldn't be alone in doing that

I'm not in as comfortable a position on gear swapping as most of you are, sitting on an AVR that costs me $5700! But eventually, I'll also be in the D camp unless Pio does something really unexpected. I'm in no hurry, tho

Steve
ss9001 is offline  
post #3129 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Member
 
ksubrama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mckinney TX
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post


This makes the most sense to me. But, Rob from Velodyne just posted on the Velodyne thread his recommendation would be to run the SMS-1 first then MCACC Doh!

Sorry Gov,
I read Rob's post and unless I'm reading between the lines, it's more convoluted than "SMS-1 >> MCACC".

I think Rob is suggesting the following:

1) SMS - AUTO eq
2) MCACC
3) SMS - Manual eq adjustments

I'm no expert but just don't see the logic behind this approach. The other suggestion to start with "MCACC >> SMS >> MCACC level adj ONLY" makes more sense from a flow perspective.

I guess there is no right answer after all.

KS
ksubrama is offline  
post #3130 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 01:13 PM
Gov
AVS Special Member
 
Gov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NW Burbs of Chgo, IL
Posts: 3,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Running the SMS-1 after MCACC can change the sub level up or down since we are EQing the sub we are effecting the level after we already ran MCACC. I always run MCACC, then SMS-1 calibration and then I rerun the MCACC but only the channel levels.

Sounds like a winner to me!! Thanks for the tip, I will try this one!

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
Gov is offline  
post #3131 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 01:15 PM
Gov
AVS Special Member
 
Gov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NW Burbs of Chgo, IL
Posts: 3,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksubrama View Post

I guess there is no right answer after all.

Either way will probably work, but you know how "anal" us geeks can be

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
Gov is offline  
post #3132 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 01:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Legairre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

that sounds like it could be optimal

can't argue with your reasoning on the channel levels...by doing it your way, you take all the factors into account. thanks for sharing that tip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Sounds like a winner to me!! Thanks for the tip, I will try this one!

Thanks guys I found that after EQing my level seemed bit low so I ran MCACC(just channel level part) and found that my sub was down a decibal or so. The trick is to run MCACC, run SMS-1, run MCACC channel levels only and make sure you didn't move the MCACC mic from the first time you ran it.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

Legairre is online now  
post #3133 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 05:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 5,908
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 230
This all makes me wish I had SMS to try out and do before, during, and after measurements. Why don't one of you "anal" guys dump the MCACC settings at each point? I am curious to see what changes... I cannot shake the feeling MCACC will try to tweak what it can in the 60 - 120 Hz octave, only to have SMS come along and tweak again...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
post #3134 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 05:42 PM
Newbie
 
f0zz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can this system do spatial averaging (tune from more than one seat)? I was under the impression that it could not, but was told by a dealer that it could.
f0zz is offline  
post #3135 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 07:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Legairre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 56
MCACC can tune for 3 seating positions

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

Legairre is online now  
post #3136 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 08:06 PM
Member
 
DanGraney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

MCACC can tune for 3 seating positions

What would the benefit of that be? Downfalls?
DanGraney is offline  
post #3137 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 08:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 5,908
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Pro: Provides a better average reading for more listeners and potentially smooths the impact of comb effects and such.

Con: The average may not be optimal if it's just you in the optimal listening spot.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
post #3138 of 5544 Old 03-01-2012, 11:57 PM
Newbie
 
Z750R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i ran auto MCACC on my vsx-1021 (5.0 speakers) and all my channels are pulled down.

MCACC channel level M1:
L -3,5db
C -5,0db
R -5,5db
SR -3,0db
SL -3,5db

MCACC speaker distance M1:
L 3,56m
C 3,40m
R 3,63m
SR 2,20m
SL 1,73m

i don't know why should all channel be pulled down, because the master volume of all channels is decreased compared to M2 memory with all channels set to 0,0db. how can i correctly pulled up my channels? i know that the gain is not linear therefore i'm not sure how to do it right. i thought one of the channel could be set to 0,0db as a reference and another channels should be set + or - db to the reference channel.
Z750R is offline  
post #3139 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 04:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
info_dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal south shore, QC
Posts: 850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpaccio View Post

The OP says Pioneer recommends data capture time period at 30 - 50ms, however, the Advanced MCACC Manual I just downloaded from here recommends 20 - 40ms.

Thoughts?

What post are you referring to? Would it be mine by any chance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC-05/07 manual, p.19 View Post

In cases like this, setting the time period for Advanced EQ Setup to 30 to 50 msec (the blue area in Figure 2)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VSA-AX10Ai manual (the one you referenced), p. 14 View Post

In cases like this, setting the time period for Advanced EQ Setup to 20 to 40 msec (the blue area in Figure 2)...

As we see, different manuals for different receivers say different things. Two things to keep in mind:

1) Different receivers may not have the same options for the MCACC time periods. The gospel would have to come from the MCACC manual for your receiver.

2) These are not "recommendations" for always using 20-40 or 30-50. The manual is trying to give you enough information so you can understand and choose the proper time period for your situation. The key part is "In cases like this".

Dan.
info_dan is offline  
post #3140 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 07:42 AM
Senior Member
 
darkdune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 495
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpaccio View Post

The OP says Pioneer recommends data capture time period at 30 - 50ms, however, the Advanced MCACC Manual I just downloaded from here recommends 20 - 40ms.

Thoughts?

Someone else can verify my thinking here:

My understanding is that if your room has more reflections -- in terms of sound -- you would do better to choose a lower ms setting. I used 10-30 ms in our setup.

Kindest Regards,

DarkDune

NEW Sony KDL-40XBR4 Optimized Settings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5245
darkdune is offline  
post #3141 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 09:08 AM
Member
 
c-mouth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm new to MCAAC and just got a 1121k. Is the procedure on the first page still valid? I don't think I want to skim 105 pages to find out....
c-mouth is offline  
post #3142 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 09:13 AM
Senior Member
 
millerrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by c-mouth View Post

I'm new to MCAAC and just got a 1121k. Is the procedure on the first page still valid? I don't think I want to skim 105 pages to find out....

Yes, I also have a 1121k and was dissappointed with my sound after running the full auto MCACC procedure. Doing the procedure on page 1 drastically helped. Although taking the time to read through this thread also helped with my understanding of MCACC. Try the stuff on page 1, but I also recommend reading through this as you have time.
millerrh is offline  
post #3143 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 10:10 AM
Senior Member
 
darkdune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 495
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerrh View Post

Yes, I also have a 1121k and was dissappointed with my sound after running the full auto MCACC procedure. Doing the procedure on page 1 drastically helped. Although taking the time to read through this thread also helped with my understanding of MCACC. Try the stuff on page 1, but I also recommend reading through this as you have time.

I concur. I found the Full Auto MCACC dB for each channel was too low for our taste. I ended up using a Sound Pressure Level meter and the receiver's own test tones to generate loud enough dB, and then did the Distance Calibration. Finally did the MCACC setup with those Channel Levels, and Distance locked.

Happy. Very Happy.

Kindest Regards,

DarkDune

NEW Sony KDL-40XBR4 Optimized Settings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=5245
darkdune is offline  
post #3144 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 01:25 PM
Member
 
DanGraney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's pretty much me and sometimes my wife next to me, so I think I'll leave as is.

Thanks!

(whoops, in regards to DonH50's reply:
"Pro: Provides a better average reading for more listeners and potentially smooths the impact of comb effects and such.

Con: The average may not be optimal if it's just you in the optimal listening spot.")
DanGraney is offline  
post #3145 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 02:15 PM
Member
 
ksubrama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mckinney TX
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post


I concur. I found the Full Auto MCACC dB for each channel was too low for our taste. I ended up using a Sound Pressure Level meter and the receiver's own test tones to generate loud enough dB, and then did the Distance Calibration. Finally did the MCACC setup with those Channel Levels, and Distance locked.

Happy. Very Happy.

DD,
Trying to understand: Did MCACC set your levels lower than 75 db, or did you just prefer hotter levels and hence the need for SPL calibration?

Reason I ask is because I just used an SPL to measure channel levels for an MCACC calibration run from yesterday, and each measured dead on at 75 db (except for Subwoofer which was at 80 db with 0.0 level adj after MCACC).

Thanks,
KS
ksubrama is offline  
post #3146 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 11:00 PM
Member
 
Carpaccio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
How do you turn off Advanced Surround effects?

I want to turn these off before I run MCACC.
Carpaccio is offline  
post #3147 of 5544 Old 03-02-2012, 11:38 PM
Senior Member
 
tima94930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Has anyone used REW to analyze your MCACC results? What sort of frequency response did you get?

I did mine from 20Hz - 8 KHz using a decent microphone and my Line 6 UX2 interface, and between 125-8000, it was +/- 4 dB with 1/3 octave smoothing applied. Below that it got a little wild, with a massive peak at 50 Hz. Comparing before to after, MCACC flattened the variations over the range and made a big audible improvement.

The REW subwoofer measurements closely matched what I got a couple of years ago when I measured manually with an AVIA test disc and my Radio Shack SPL meter. Back then I had a Denon AVR-789 with Audyssey MultiEQ, and MultiEQ did nothing for the 50 Hz peak. Audyssey made a minor difference by raising a valley between 50-100 Hz by about 3 dB, which was pretty inconsequential considering the depth of the valley.

Anyway, MCACC greatly improved the sound in my media room, which is not a great environment for audio. Without it, a lot of material would be unlistenable due to thin bass and exaggerated highs. Audyssey was also very effective as I recall. The biggest difference was not in the basic room calibration but between my 9040TXH's THX Loudness Plus and Audyssey's DynamicEQ, the latter being much more aggressive at raising the volume of the rears and adding bass, which was not always a good thing. I've been very pleased with the Pioneer, which sounds great and doesn't exhibit any background noise to speak of when nothing's playing. The Denon AVR-789 was bad about that, and so was the next year's model that I briefly tried.
tima94930 is offline  
post #3148 of 5544 Old 03-03-2012, 11:16 AM
Senior Member
 
millerrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
How does one go about doing the 3 mic position averaging? I for the life of me can't find it on my receiver (1211k). Possible it is not available on mine or am I just missing it somehow? I'd like to try this in all positions on my couch since any number of people can sit anywhere. Could help with comb filtering in my untreated room as well.
millerrh is offline  
post #3149 of 5544 Old 03-03-2012, 12:12 PM
Member
 
ksubrama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mckinney TX
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerrh View Post

How does one go about doing the 3 mic position averaging? I for the life of me can't find it on my receiver (1211k). Possible it is not available on mine or am I just missing it somehow? I'd like to try this in all positions on my couch since any number of people can sit anywhere. Could help with comb filtering in my untreated room as well.

I have an SC-37, and it's available under;
Manual MCACC >> Advanced EQ.

It should be the last option after time delay setting ( 20-40 ms, 30-50 ms, etc) and will be called "Standing Wave Multi point..." or something similar.

If you're looking top down at the couch facing the TV, the diagram in the SC manual lists the EQ order as follows:

1) 2nd position (left seating) - this should be starting point for mic before engaging multi point EQ.

2) 3rd position (right seating)

3) Main listening position (center)

Hope the 1121k has it!

KS
ksubrama is offline  
post #3150 of 5544 Old 03-03-2012, 12:14 PM
Senior Member
 
millerrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksubrama View Post

I have an SC-37, and it's available under;
Manual MCACC >> Advanced EQ.

It should be the last option after time delay setting ( 20-40 ms, 30-50 ms, etc) and will be called "Standing Wave Multi point..." or something similar.

If you're looking top down at the couch facing the TV, the diagram in the SC manual lists the EQ order as follows:

1) 2nd position (left seating) - this should be starting point for mic before engaging multi point EQ.

2) 3rd position (right seating)

3) Main listening position (center)

Hope the 1121k has it!

KS

Thanks! Yep sure does have it. Sure is burried in there and I was going through the manual searching for things like "averaging"

Running it now, we'll see how it compares to non multi-point

EDIT: multi-point cal seems to be better for my room. It has a slight edge in the fullness of the sound and since I'm not guaranteed to be in the same listening position, I think I've got a winner here.
millerrh is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off