"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > "OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread
Macfan424's Avatar Macfan424 06:45 PM 03-19-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Interesting. I'd be interested to see these data..especially to know what years the sample DVDs were released. Is there a link?

I would think the standard was set to avoid localizing the sub, as much (or more than) a reflection of what DVD soundtracks contained.

I believe it was, but apparently the sound engineers also came to the same conclusion independently.

I think the study was early on, when THX was in the process of developing or had just developed their home standards. However, the pervasiveness of the 80Hz "standard" in the marketplace has probably influenced newer productions. No point in including frequencies that most people will never hear. So once THX went down this path, I suspect it became kind of a self fulfilling prophesy. Some early 5.1 AVRs offered only a 120Hz LFE crossover, but, with the possible exception of HTIB's (which do it out of necessity) you don't see that much any more, even as a default.

Don't know if I ever read anything THX published about their studies, just articles by people who were aware of them. Too lazy/tired/old (pick one ) to try to dig them out, but here are a couple which allude to the subject in one way or anther: THX and Subwoofer Crossover Frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I'm not sure they throw it all away..some of it gets converted to thermal energy in their 'LARGE' small speakers..maybe useful in cold weather ?

Hey, I never thought of that. May not be such a bad idea in Chicago after all!

Legairre's Avatar Legairre 07:38 PM 03-19-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

People keep writing this, but surely standing wave correction (which is part of advanced MCACC in models at least since the 74txvi) does show settings for
[SUB], implying it is EQing the 'subwoofer channel' in at least one frequency band.

More sophisticated subwoofer EQ schemes affect more than one frequency center.

To confirm this I had once checked my subs response before running MCACC and then checked again after running MCACC. I got the same reading on the sub before and after running MCACC. Then I EQed the sub with my BFD because the sub wasn't even close to being flat.

MCACC does not EQ the sub. Pioneer explicitely states in the manual that MCACC does not EQ the sub.

From page 42 of the 92/94 manual:
Quote:


Acoustic Calibration Equalization is a kind of room
equalizer for your speakers (excluding the subwoofer). It
works by measuring the acoustic characteristics of your
room and neutralizing the ambient characteristics that
can color the original source material (providing a ‘flat’
equalization setting)


joplass's Avatar joplass 09:33 AM 03-20-2009
What are the expectations when setting up reverb? Is there something out there to go by?


Is there a way to save different "Speaker Setting" for each MCACC? I would like to have Memory1 (Music for me) with large front speakers and have Memory2 (Movie over here) everything small.

Thanks
krabapple's Avatar krabapple 01:35 PM 03-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

To confirm this I had once checked my subs response before running MCACC and then checked again after running MCACC. I got the same reading on the sub before and after running MCACC. Then I EQed the sub with my BFD because the sub wasn't even close to being flat.

After you ran MCACC, did you check the Standing Wave correction data to see if the [SUB] frequency was actually targeting a frequency that your sub reproduces?

The AVR appears, at best, to target one standing wave in the subwoofer range. So it would hardly be expected to do what a BFD can do.

Quote:


MCACC does not EQ the sub. Pioneer explicitely states in the manual that MCACC does not EQ the sub.

From page 42 of the 92/94 manual:

The nine band Acoustic Calibration EQ (either Pro or standard) doesn't affect the sub channel at all.

But clearly there is an adjustment to something called [SUB] in the Standing Wave correction algorithm (which correction, btw, was not a feature of the first generation or two of Pioneer Elite AVRs)
Pardoxicallly, the target frequency of the [SUB] adjustment is sometimes well above a typical subwoofer frequency (e.g. >125 Hz).

The two questions thus would be
1) is Standing Wave correction considered to be part of 'MCACC'
2) what does the [SUB] adjustment mean?
krabapple's Avatar krabapple 01:42 PM 03-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by joplass View Post

What are the expectations when setting up reverb? Is there something out there to go by?

If your room is strongly reverberant, use an earlier measurement setting.
If it's relatively 'dead', use a later one. A rough measure of this could be
if you hear echo when you clap (that means reverberation). There's some discussion of this in the user's manual.

The PC output function lets you see more quantitatively how reverberant your room is. There are guidelines in the manual for the PC software, for setting the measurement time based on what the data look like.

Quote:


Is there a way to save different "Speaker Setting" for each MCACC? I would like to have Memory1 (Music for me) with large front speakers and have Memory2 (Movie over here) everything small.

Thanks

On my AVR at least (74txvi) , the Speaker Setting applies to all the memory presets. You cannot customize the Speaker Setting on a per-preset basis. That's unfortunate because it would be nice to be able to quickly switch between different crossover settings, to compare them. As it stands you can only compare 'on' and 'off'.
GregLee's Avatar GregLee 01:59 PM 03-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by joplass View Post

What are the expectations when setting up reverb? Is there something out there to go by?

I've tried my ears, without too much success so far. My Pioneer model (1017) doesn't have any provision for measuring reverberation, so I did equalizations using reverb times 20-40, 30-50, and 40-60. I've been switching among these three whenever I run into interesting surround source material. All three sound good, though slightly different, but I can't single out one as best.
Legairre's Avatar Legairre 03:31 PM 03-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

After you ran MCACC, did you check the Standing Wave correction data to see if the [SUB] frequency was actually targeting a frequency that your sub reproduces?

No I did not, because I use an Outlaw ICBM for bass management with a crossover of 60Hz and MCACC only handles 63Hz and above so I didn't see the need to check frequencies below 63Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

The AVR appears, at best, to target one standing wave in the subwoofer range. So it would hardly be expected to do what a BFD can do.

The nine band Acoustic Calibration EQ (either Pro or standard) doesn't affect the sub channel at all.

But clearly there is an adjustment to something called [SUB] in the Standing Wave correction algorithm (which correction, btw, was not a feature of the first generation or two of Pioneer Elite AVRs)
Pardoxicallly, the target frequency of the [SUB] adjustment is sometimes well above a typical subwoofer frequency (e.g. >125 Hz).

The two questions thus would be
1) is Standing Wave correction considered to be part of 'MCACC'
2) what does the [SUB] adjustment mean?

I'm sorry krabapple. I thought you were saying MCACC EQ-ed(Acoustic Calibration EQ) the sub. That's why my post only delt with the Acoustic Calibration EQ. I re-read your post and it appears you are referring to standing wave control and it's use of the SW parameter. Standing Wave Control has filters for the sub from 63Hz and above to get rid of reflections that cause cause boominess.



1) Yes, Standing wave is part of MCACC.
2) There are two reasons that Standing Wave Control has a SW setting that effects frequencies sometimes well above a typical LFE frequency(say 80Hz). One is because we have the option of setting the sub to "PLUS". Plus will cause the sub to play the exact same bass as the other speakers, thus allowing the sub to play the full audio spectrum of bass not just from the crossover down. The other reason is because we have the option of setting the subs crossover anywhere from 50Hz to 200Hz. Standing Wave Control adjust the appropriote filter for the 63-200Hz range even if your crossover is set to 80Hz. That way if you decide to run at a higher crossover you don't need to rerun the standing wave control because it's already set to handle the higher bass frequencies even if you aren't using them right now based on your current crossover.
speedread's Avatar speedread 03:49 PM 03-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I've tried my ears, without too much success so far. My Pioneer model (1017) doesn't have any provision for measuring reverberation, so I did equalizations using reverb times 20-40, 30-50, and 40-60. I've been switching among these three whenever I run into interesting surround source material. All three sound good, though slightly different, but I can't single out one as best.

So, if I know I have a very "live" (reverberant) room, is it really worth trying to recalibrate it with a 20 msec or so setting, especially since after you ran your recalibrations, you can't tell if any particular one is best? My MCACC check showed very strong reverberations at all frequencies, peaking at 250 Hz. The correction is better (flatter), but there's still a lot of power at all frequencies.
Note added: No subwoofer, full-range main speakers (front, only, at this time).
GregLee's Avatar GregLee 04:17 PM 03-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedread View Post

So, if I know I have a very "live" (reverberant) room, is it really worth trying to recalibrate it with a 20 msec or so setting, ...

Sure, I'd say so. With MCACC it's so little trouble to recalibrate, we can try lots of things, and listen. (Or even measure.)
Buck0702's Avatar Buck0702 07:43 PM 03-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

It has. Anyway, for most subs, ideally the sub gain should be around 9:00-10:00 and the AVR sub level in the 0 to -5 range. It doesn't always work out that way, so you adjust one or the other or both to bring them closer. In the ballpark is close enough. Those are just guidelines, not rules.

Most people set their subs "hot" if they do it by ear. MCACC will give them a flat response, which may sound lacking if you are used to boosted lows. (There can be more to it, but its a subject onto itself.) A lot of people manually boost the AVR sub setting by 2-3dB, which can add some heft without too much distortion.

Thanks Macfan. Manually boosted the sub and I think I got want I wanted-more base.
jqmn's Avatar jqmn 07:23 AM 03-25-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedread View Post

So, if I know I have a very "live" (reverberant) room, is it really worth trying to recalibrate it with a 20 msec or so setting, especially since after you ran your recalibrations, you can't tell if any particular one is best? My MCACC check showed very strong reverberations at all frequencies, peaking at 250 Hz. The correction is better (flatter), but there's still a lot of power at all frequencies.
Note added: No subwoofer, full-range main speakers (front, only, at this time).

I would say give it a try. I have a very lively room, have taken it down twice now and have seen quite a bit of improvement each time. In my case dialogue really sharpens up (inlcuding vocals on music). I am going to try the very lowest setting next as a final step but this really makes quite a bit of difference for me.
spongebob's Avatar spongebob 07:50 AM 03-25-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

I would say give it a try. I have a very lively room, have taken it down twice now and have seen quite a bit of improvement each time. In my case dialogue really sharpens up (inlcuding vocals on music). I am going to try the very lowest setting next as a final step but this really makes quite a bit of difference for me.

I have a really dead room. Should I run it at the highest setting?


bob
stickb5's Avatar stickb5 12:32 PM 03-25-2009
hey guys, i just got my hand on a Elite 92TXH reciever, i used to have the Denon 1909 with Auddysey EQ room and i got used to it so now i have few questions about this MCACC, Is the MCACC EQ better than the Auddysey EQ? why after i did all of the steps on the first page my setup sound so low? in some speakers the SP level when down to -7 and -8 why so low is this normal? why when i try to use the 3 point measurements on my 2 point of the room the MCACC asked my to put down my sub? by the way my ending result on the sub level was at 8:00 and my level on the reciever ended up on 8.5 why so low? i m sorry for all this questions but i knew the Audyssey good and now i have this new EQ that i have to get use to it.
jqmn's Avatar jqmn 03:48 PM 03-25-2009
Yes, I would give it a try since the only cost is your time. The good news is that you can't screw these units up doing this type of adjustment and you can always go back to your original if you save the new calibration to a separate memory slot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

I have a really dead room. Should I run it at the highest setting?


bob


Redskin's Avatar Redskin 05:43 PM 03-25-2009
Is there any way to get discrete codes for the MCACC settings instead of toggling through them? My AVR is behind me, and it is a pain to scroll through and try to figure out what MCACC setting I am on.
GregLee's Avatar GregLee 06:31 PM 03-25-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickb5 View Post

in some speakers the SP level when down to -7 and -8 why so low is this normal?

Yes, if some of your speakers are more sensitive than others. But I don't understand why you care about this. If the sound got too soft, just turn up the receiver volume until it's loud enough.
stickb5's Avatar stickb5 07:57 PM 03-25-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Yes, if some of your speakers are more sensitive than others. But I don't understand why you care about this. If the sound got too soft, just turn up the receiver volume until it's loud enough.

well, in my other AV receiver i used to listen to movies and play video games between -50db to -25db comfortably, now with this one i need listen to it between -25db to 0db, i find myself cranking it to much to get a nice sound out of this unit.
bsoko2's Avatar bsoko2 11:19 PM 03-25-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickb5 View Post

well, in my other AV receiver i used to listen to movies and play video games between -50db to -25db comfortably, now with this one i need listen to it between -25db to 0db, i find myself cranking it to much to get a nice sound out of this unit.

Just like not all cars are the same, all receivers are not the same. Turn it to what you are comfortable with and don't worry where the "-" is.

Bill
speedread's Avatar speedread 02:39 AM 03-26-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickb5 View Post

well, in my other AV receiver i used to listen to movies and play video games between -50db to -25db comfortably, now with this one i need listen to it between -25db to 0db, i find myself cranking it to much to get a nice sound out of this unit.

You can always manually tweak the "trim" level to some degree. These units tend to have a much more spread out range, which I like -- there's a lot more control over the precise volume, even if it means cranking it up more than one is used to with other receivers.
Legairre's Avatar Legairre 08:37 AM 03-26-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin View Post

Is there any way to get discrete codes for the MCACC settings instead of toggling through them? My AVR is behing me, and it is a pain to scroll through and try to figure out what MCACC setting I am on.

Unfortunately no. You have to scroll through them all.
stickb5's Avatar stickb5 09:57 AM 03-27-2009
i have just noticed that this AVreceiver does not allow you to set different Xover for each speaker. should i calibrate with different xover to see what work best for me, because i dont think that the MCACC set xover to the speakers?
Gov's Avatar Gov 10:07 AM 03-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickb5 View Post

i have just noticed that this AVreceiver does not allow you to set different Xover for each speaker. should i calibrate with different xover to see what work best for me, because i dont think that the MCACC set xover to the speakers?

MCACC does not care what your crossover is set at when calibrating. You pick the crossover, it does not. Also, you can change the crossover even after calibrating, you will not have to recalibrate if so.
stickb5's Avatar stickb5 10:55 AM 03-27-2009
Thanks, GOV. right now i have my Xover at 80hz but i feel that the sub is not blending in well with the mains, i ll try to change it to 50hz and see what happend.
Macfan424's Avatar Macfan424 01:52 PM 03-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickb5 View Post

i have just noticed that this AVreceiver does not allow you to set different Xover for each speaker...

Many experts think that multiple crossovers do more harm than good. That viewpoint is explained in this"Secrets" feature article on subwoofer crossover frequencies.

Also note that the authors explain why setting a crossover below 80Hz can result in the unintended loss of LFE bass, something that is often overlooked.
nick2010's Avatar nick2010 03:24 PM 03-27-2009
I recently upgraded my speakers and decided to follow the guide on the first post to redo my settings. After I ran Auto MCACC the first time and set my speakers to "small" I could not find the option for running it again in the custom mode.

"2) Go into Manual Sp Setup and change the SP settings if neccessary(crossover to 100hz for me and speakers to small)

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings. You will also be given the options to have MCAAC calibrate for symmetry, all ch adjust and front align. You may save each calibration to seperate presets or run just one of them, or run two of them. You will see these options after you select Keep Sp settings."

Exactly where in the menu do I find the custom option? (I am using a 92TXH)
avs2avs's Avatar avs2avs 09:24 PM 03-27-2009
I'm sure plenty has been written about it, but I tried a quick search with not much luck...

What's the consensus on the above two calibration methods and which one is considered "better"?

Pros and cons of each?

Thanks
GregLee's Avatar GregLee 03:04 PM 03-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by avs2avs View Post

What's the consensus on the above two calibration methods and which one is considered "better"?

Pros and cons of each?

You'll find some comparisons if you search this thread for "Audyssey". Here is one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=268
Macfan424's Avatar Macfan424 03:53 PM 03-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by avs2avs View Post

I'm sure plenty has been written about it, but I tried a quick search with not much luck...

What's the consensus on the above two calibration methods and which one is considered "better"?

Pros and cons of each?

Thanks

There is no consensus on which is "Better." Both have their advocates, but MCACC more than holds it's own with professional reviewers. For example, here's what "Secrets" had to say in a comparison a while back:
Quote:


MCACC Auto Set-up more user friendly, more configurable, flexible, and faster. User can save and modify multiple setups, force THX suggested 80 Hz crossover while maintaining remainder of processing. Audyssey EQ setting on doesn't allow for modification on crossovers or other settings after running the Auto Set-up.


Macfan424's Avatar Macfan424 04:03 PM 03-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick2010 View Post

...Exactly where in the menu do I find the custom option? (I am using a 92TXH)

I had hoped a 92 owner would respond, but since one hasn't and I suspect it is the same as on my 01, try this: When you run Auto MCACC, there is a "Start" button near the bottom of the screen. It can be converted to "Custom" with the side arrows on your remote.
nick2010's Avatar nick2010 06:17 PM 03-29-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I had hoped a 92 owner would respond, but since one hasn't and I suspect it is the same as on my 01, try this: When you run Auto MCACC, there is a "Start" button near the bottom of the screen. It can be converted to "Custom" with the side arrows on your remote.

Thanks for the response, that worked with my 92TXH.
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