"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 189 - AVS Forum
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post #5641 of 5669 Old 12-03-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Topher View Post
I sometimes adjust the speaker levels on my SC-55 depending on the program material (sports, etc.). Does selecting a MCACC preset reset the levels to what MCACC set, or do I have to redo MCACC & write them down for future reference?
Choosing any preset changes gain to that pre selected level, bot NOT master volume. You have six to choose from... I suggest you set up several to serve all your needs, in that way it is easy to switch between them on the fly. Dont forget to copy all other data from one pre set to the next... if you happen to want all that data.

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post #5642 of 5669 Old 12-05-2014, 08:46 AM
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Does anyone know if bass EQ is applied to "LARGE" speakers, or is it just for subs connected to the line-outs?
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post #5643 of 5669 Old 12-05-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchu18 View Post
Choosing any preset changes gain to that pre selected level, bot NOT master volume. You have six to choose from... I suggest you set up several to serve all your needs, in that way it is easy to switch between them on the fly. Dont forget to copy all other data from one pre set to the next... if you happen to want all that data.
Thanks, that's what I was hoping.
I have a preset for the front couch (movies) and another for the rear bar (mostly sports), but sometimes I adjust the mostly the SB speakers for the crowd noise.
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post #5644 of 5669 Old 12-05-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dscottj View Post
Does anyone know if bass EQ is applied to "LARGE" speakers, or is it just for subs connected to the line-outs?
On my older SC-27 the lower EQ bands, as well as full-band phase control etc., are all applied to "Large" speakers. If you are talking about bass EQ in the newer models, I don't know, sorry. However, it makes sense that they would EQ any large speakers all the way down, and makes no sense to me that they wouldn't...

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post #5645 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
On my older SC-27 the lower EQ bands, as well as full-band phase control etc., are all applied to "Large" speakers. If you are talking about bass EQ in the newer models, I don't know, sorry. However, it makes sense that they would EQ any large speakers all the way down, and makes no sense to me that they wouldn't...
Be that as it may, the only new test tones in my SC-89's MCACC measurement play through the subs, not the mains. The EQ Professional -> Reverb section still only tests down to (from memory, apologies if this is not the exact number) 63hz. This make me *suspect* sub EQ only happens to speakers formally designated as subs.
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post #5646 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 05:25 AM
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Hi all I seem to have a problem with my Pioneer VSX - 923!
It was Working just fine playing a cd but as I changed over to airplay the receiver has gone into some kind of protection mode and the MCACC light is flashing ?
I'm seeing many problems of this kind but nothing listed for my model
Just want to know the reset procedure for this model if anyone can help ??
Many thanks
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post #5647 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 06:29 AM
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Hello, my AVR has been the SC-07 since it came out. Still love it.

Of course, it does not have a method for EQing a sub, so I have a BFD and manually EQed it. My questions are about the new Pioneer models... Are there any models that will EQ a sub currently? IF so, what is the name of the feature, so I know what to look for? Would they EQ 2 subs in a system?

If those models have calibration for subs, will it be as good of a calibration as an Anti-Mode 8033?

Thanks for the help and education.

Last edited by NismoZ; 12-06-2014 at 06:39 AM.
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post #5648 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by NismoZ View Post
Hello, my AVR has been the SC-07 since it came out. Still love it.

Of course, it does not have a method for EQing a sub, so I have a BFD and manually EQed it. My questions are about the new Pioneer models... Are there any models that will EQ a sub currently? IF so, what is the name of the feature, so I know what to look for? Would they EQ 2 subs in a system?

If those models have calibration for subs, will it be as good of a calibration as an Anti-Mode 8033?

Thanks for the help and education.
the current elite line SC85 and above EQ's sub's... two at a time.

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post #5649 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MSchu18 View Post
the current elite line SC85 and above EQ's sub's... two at a time.
Thanks. Does MCACC Pro do as good of a job on a sub as the 8033?
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post #5650 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dscottj View Post
Be that as it may, the only new test tones in my SC-89's MCACC measurement play through the subs, not the mains. The EQ Professional -> Reverb section still only tests down to (from memory, apologies if this is not the exact number) 63hz. This make me *suspect* sub EQ only happens to speakers formally designated as subs.
That makes sense.

I downloaded the SC-89 manual and went through everything I could find searching on "subwoofer". It does not explicitly say so, but in several places the implication is clear that Subwoofer EQ is only applied to the subwoofer channel. That is, the manual only talks about it in conjunction with subs, test tones and filters are different, it is not included in the regular channel setup, etc.

I'll have to keep that in mind if I upgrade. My current scheme uses an active crossover to drive L/R speakers with their own subs colocated. thus my mains are "large" to the AVR (I normally argue against setting mains to large unless they are very unusual mains). My subs include a single-band PEQ and that has been good enough for me so far.

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post #5651 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
That is, the manual only talks about it in conjunction with subs, test tones and filters are different, it is not included in the regular channel setup, etc.
Yup, that was my first hint. I'd like to get something definitive but, due respect, it actually makes more sense to me if it only applies sub-EQ to the subs connected to the LFE channels. Discreet subs are probably what 90% of people buying these things will use.

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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
thus my mains are "large" to the AVR (I normally argue against setting mains to large unless they are very unusual mains).
Mine are GoldenEar Triton 1s, so yeah, they're not what you'd call "normal." That said, it's a simple matter to switch them to "small" and have the receiver control the stereo crossover instead of the mains. I lose the super-fancy crossover in the Tritons, but gain the super-fancy one in the AVR. Still doing listening tests to find what works best.
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post #5652 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 07:57 AM
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new MCACC Manual EQ for sub channel..

31hz - 63hz - 125hz - 250hz - Gain

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post #5653 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dscottj View Post

Mine are GoldenEar Triton 1s, so yeah, they're not what you'd call "normal." That said, it's a simple matter to switch them to "small" and have the receiver control the stereo crossover instead of the mains. I lose the super-fancy crossover in the Tritons, but gain the super-fancy one in the AVR. Still doing listening tests to find what works best.

I'll never do that... that's where the Magic Lies.


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post #5654 of 5669 Old 12-06-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dscottj View Post
Yup, that was my first hint. I'd like to get something definitive but, due respect, it actually makes more sense to me if it only applies sub-EQ to the subs connected to the LFE channels. Discreet subs are probably what 90% of people buying these things will use.
Dense early this morning, I didn't quite follow this... I presume the LFE channel goes to the sub outputs, and perhaps to the mains if they are "large". I would expect Subwoofer EQ to be applied to the subwoofer outputs, only, no matter the source (bass from "small" speakers plus the LFE). Wouldn't "discreet" subs normally be connected to the subwoofer outputs, which are processed through Subwoofer EQ? That is what I would expect. Maybe I misunderstood your posts.

I would not expect Subwoofer EQ to be applied to the L/R channels, large or small, the way the manual reads. I don't believe Audyssey works that way either; SubEQ works only on the subwoofer outputs.

What would be nice for us would be for large mains to include the same LF filters as Subwoofer EQ but that does not appear to be the case.

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post #5655 of 5669 Old 12-09-2014, 11:26 AM
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I've just got an VSX-1124 with a 7.1 set using Pioneer set of speakers with a Rythmik Subwoofer.

It caught my attention that when i run the Reverb tests without any EQ (which is how i usually have been listening with my previous Pioneer Receiver) i get very low to nothing showing up on the higher frequencies, now i am not sure if this is just the way the curve is for my speakers but that was the sound i am familiar, after doing the MCACC EQ i can see that the reverb tests show a much flatter plots on all frequencies but now when i listen to music or movies it is a lot brighter than without EQ.

My question is if the flat frequency response is correct? i also added -1db to the x-curve but i still find it a bit bright, could it be that i am just used to the sound of the nonflat frequency response of my speakers? or does anybody else find the MCACC EQ to be on the bright side? my guess is most speakers or headphones have some kind of curve to make the sound a bit more exciting by adding boost on bass, mids, etc. unless they are going to be used as monitors.

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post #5656 of 5669 Old Yesterday, 10:12 AM
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Got a quick question that I hope has a quick answer.

SC_71 - Toying with the idea of off loading the fronts to an Emotiva XPA-200 to pickup some headroom. Fronts are vintage Infinity RSb's 4-ohm. Want to do a custom EQ on them using a MiniDSP then run MCACC in Front Align. If I do what do I lose in terms of Phase alignment on the fronts?
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post #5657 of 5669 Old Yesterday, 10:13 AM
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Two posts off of one click. Odd.
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post #5658 of 5669 Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildoak View Post
Got a quick question that I hope has a quick answer.

SC_71 - Toying with the idea of off loading the fronts to an Emotiva XPA-200 to pickup some headroom. Fronts are vintage Infinity RSb's 4-ohm. Want to do a custom EQ on them using a MiniDSP then run MCACC in Front Align. If I do what do I lose in terms of Phase alignment on the fronts?
If you re-run MCACC's phase adjust routine it will compensate for the miniDSP and amplifier.

Hard to say if you would gain any benefit adding the amp. Check out an online calculator to see roughly where you are now. E.g. http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html Unused headroom doesn't really add anything except cost and noise.

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post #5659 of 5669 Old Yesterday, 12:55 PM
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Thats just it.. you might loose phase alignment. BUT you will gain headroom and separation.

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post #5660 of 5669 Old Yesterday, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
If you re-run MCACC's phase adjust routine it will compensate for the miniDSP and amplifier.

Hard to say if you would gain any benefit adding the amp. Check out an online calculator to see roughly where you are now. E.g. http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html Unused headroom doesn't really add anything except cost and noise.
I was unaware that you could run the phase adjustment routine selectively. Can you explain?

Edit: Also the addition of speakers to flesh out a full 7.1 has pushed the power supply a bit. I've heard many say (by way of personal experience) that in that situation gains can be made by going to separates.

Last edited by wildoak; Yesterday at 01:27 PM.
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I don't have an SC-71 but check the owner's manual about manual MCACC and see what it says. I have not checked mine (SC-27) to see if that is one of the options.

Gaining headroom does not matter if you don't use it, and adding an amp may not improve separation. Crosstalk is pretty low on the AVR, and on most AVRs. I assume the comment is directed toward crosstalk via the power supply, which is possible, assuming full-power operation and limited PSRR or increased crosstalk at that point. Which is probably blowing your ears off. And probably happening with some signal that has pretty low separation to begin with...

It may also be possible to EQ with appropriate filters in the miniDSP so that relative phase is not changed. I don't know, not sure what filter architectures the miniDSP offers, and been a long time since my grad digital filter design classes...

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Thanks Don,

REW does all its EQ calc at minimum phase so, no, it doesn't address phase alignment. I just was just informed of that on HTS. Lack of full understanding of the science forces me to simply trust what I'm told on the subject so you can take that with a grain... That puts the augmented EQ with the MiniDSP in question and that was part of the improvement I was trying for. I felt that some SQ improvement could be realized. I had very good results EQing my sub and a post MCACC REW sweep on my mains showed the potential for some additional improvement. So far every time I've attempted an improvement I've seen SOME return on my effort. $340 doesn't seem like a lot but then again, based on the calculator you linked, the SPL gain would be only from 106.? to 107.? at the LP so that's definitely not a motivator. Room treatments are out due to WAF.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Gaining headroom does not matter if you don't use it, and adding an amp may not improve separation. Crosstalk is pretty low on the AVR, and on most AVRs. I assume the comment is directed toward crosstalk via the power supply, which is possible, assuming full-power operation and limited PSRR or increased crosstalk at that point. Which is probably blowing your ears off. And probably happening with some signal that has pretty low separation to begin with...

this is simply an inaccurate post. really.

stop putting out horrible information.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildoak View Post
Thanks Don,

REW does all its EQ calc at minimum phase so, no, it doesn't address phase alignment. I just was just informed of that on HTS. Lack of full understanding of the science forces me to simply trust what I'm told on the subject so you can take that with a grain... That puts the augmented EQ with the MiniDSP in question and that was part of the improvement I was trying for. I felt that some SQ improvement could be realized. I had very good results EQing my sub and a post MCACC REW sweep on my mains showed the potential for some additional improvement. So far every time I've attempted an improvement I've seen SOME return on my effort. $340 doesn't seem like a lot but then again, based on the calculator you linked, the SPL gain would be only from 106.? to 107.? at the LP so that's definitely not a motivator. Room treatments are out due to WAF.
Even if you lose phase compensation you can improve the frequency response. You'll have to listen to decide what you like. I have tweaked MCACC to provide flatter frequency at the listening position just using the PEQ and regular equalizer bands in the AVR. Presumably you could do better with more filters using miniDSP. I have often thought about doing that but just haven't had the time, money, and motivation (or not all at the same time ). Note that compared to Audyssey and some other room EQ programs MCACC has far fewer filters so I could certainly imagine some benefit with the miniDSP. You can also set up some "house" curves you like and have them ready to go.

What if you use the miniDSP to compensate the response using the direct mode to set up and measure, then run MCACC with the miniDSP in-line? I'd think MCACC would have little to do EQ-wise but could compensate the phase if needed...

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Differing opinions are welcome.

I'd like to throw out one more scenario just to keep the the ball in the air and play out all the options.
  1. Buy the XTA-200 & MiniDSP
  2. Run MCACC All Ch Adjust.
  3. Take a pink noise level reading on both fronts.
  4. Manually remove the MCACC (EQ only) from the fronts (goto 0db on all freq's).
  5. Run REW on the fronts and EQ with MiniDSP.
  6. Reset the front levels using the pink noise reference from step 3.

Would that just mess things up?

Don, I know you're not a fan of the idea but what I need now is an evaluation of the relative merits of the EQing scheme.
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post #5666 of 5669 Unread Today, 10:48 AM
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OK Don, you ninja'd me I like the idea.

(Yeah, I know it was 20 minutes. I stepped away - mid-post.)

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post #5667 of 5669 Unread Today, 11:06 AM
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Even If MCACC did change the EQ, I could always just zero it back out, right?
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post #5668 of 5669 Unread Today, 12:17 PM
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Yup.

I would EQ with the miniDSP first, dial it in using Pioneer's Pure Direct mode, then run MCACC. MCACC has a limited set of filters so the idea is to take some of the "load" off the AVR and move it to the dedicated DSP in the miniDSP. It seems to me the most popular use of miniDSP with Pioneer equipment has been to EQ the bass region, so you might consider using the unit to EQ L/R and sub(s). Thus if I had a four-channel miniDSP and one sub I would EQ L/R/C/sub.

And not sure what idea I am not a fan of? The miniDSP sounds cool. As for amplifiers, IME/IMO most people who buy external amplifiers don't really need them, but that's a personal decision. I have them, had them before getting my Pioneer, and have inefficient 4-ohm speakers. With my previous AVR the amp made a difference; not that I noticed with the Pioneer. If I had the Pio first I probably would not have the amps. However, barring an easy loopback scheme, it is hard to add a signal processor in-line anymore (receivers used to have tape loops and preamp in/out connectors, not so much now).

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post #5669 of 5669 Unread Today, 02:33 PM
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The MiniDSP I have now is the 2x4 unbalanced. Only 2 inputs and one is used for the sub (Linkwitz Transform and FR EQ) so I'll need another for the front L/R but I won't have to buy the plugin. Hey, $10 here and there adds up. Slipping in the two front pre-outs on the 71 seemed a little half baked at first but now I seeing the benefit.

Guess "not a fan" was harsh - sorry. You're just trying to save me some cash - cudo's for that. - Pat
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