"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 5569 Old 04-12-2009, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by boomster View Post

I'm guessing a calibrated system by SPL meter won't sound any better then. I did answer you in the other thread stating that MCACC is pretty accurate (even when I read a magazine that also says MCACC is as well). So going out and getting it professionally done would be overkill.

I could guess and say you want more bass from your settings and that is what you feel is lacking. I would say on this that I doubt a professionally calibrated system will give you much more.

Honestly if you want accuracy then you might have to deal with less. If you go by what you want to hear, then just go into the settings and move up the dB's on the frequencies you feel are lacking. Changing some of your speakers to small would help in that area as well. Maybe give yourself the best of both worlds... have some MCACC settings, and then have an EQ for how you like things. That way you can always flip through them.

I'll be honest, I have an EQ setting where I bumped up the highs and lows a few dB's, and when I'm in that mood I just use that. Makes me happy when I have a flat source.

Kind of makes it hard to tweak the dB for each frequency to my liking if all I hear is a test tone instead of music? I really do not like the MCACC EQ. I still haven't been able to tweak each freq to my liking because of this.
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post #542 of 5569 Old 04-12-2009, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Valnar View Post

I'll try the left input next where the volume control does work.

I really think you should use the "theater" input, as you have been, and turn down the volume ( = "input level"). I do see that the manual says "when using the theater input, the volume is bypassed and controlled by your processor/preamp", but I think that is clumsily worded. It just means after you set the volume appropriately during setup, you won't subsequently need to change the sub's volume control. So turn down the volume and run MCACC again.

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post #543 of 5569 Old 04-12-2009, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I really think you should use the "theater" input, as you have been, and turn down the volume ( = "input level"). I do see that the manual says "when using the theater input, the volume is bypassed and controlled by your processor/preamp", but I think that is clumsily worded. It just means after you set the volume appropriately during setup, you won't subsequently need to change the sub's volume control. So turn down the volume and run MCACC again.

It was totally bypassed in theater mode, but I used the left line-level input instead which does use the input level pots. Its' all set now - works well at about 50% and MCACC sets my sub at a -2dB. So something did change with the new SC-05, but fortunately my sub allows me to do this (as most do... as was pointed out to me).

So far it sounds much fuller than my older 55TXi. The main difference being it actually sounds like surround-sound. During the calibration of my old receiver, the test tones came loud and strong but during any movie or music, they were always too far down in the mix. I don't know why. With the new MCACC, the surrounds are actually getting a workout, and seem about right now on my 5.1 movies.
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post #544 of 5569 Old 04-12-2009, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GunDom View Post

Classic EQ Curve? Yep! I was in that era too. Back in the days when cruising on a Friday and Saturday night was a past-time, no one cared about the mids. It is all about the bass and tweets! As long as you have a good system where the boom is what gets your attention and the tweets is what complements the whole sound, that's all that matters.

This is the curve I use except I still can't tweak it to my liking because the EQ thinks we listen to test tone for pure enjoyment satisfaction instead of music.
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post #545 of 5569 Old 04-14-2009, 02:05 PM
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I agree! We should be able to tweak the EQ while listening to a music source. It makes absolutely no sense to me that it switches to a test tone. One thing that people don't seem to realize is that the human ear is most sensitive to frequencies from about 1K to 5K, and the least sensitive at 20 and 20K. Therefore, if music is being played and every frequency is at 50 db, to the average human ear, the higher and lower frequencies will sound attenuated with some frequencies at the extreme ends of the sound spectrum sounding more like 30 db. I don't listen to flat music, even though some will try to convince you that you are supposed to like it and that anything other than flat is wrong. Any system calibrated to "flat" will sound dull in the lows and the highs with music. That is why many like to boost those frequencies. This usually results in a "smile" offset slightly to the right, if the speakers being used are pretty accurate. It does not mean that we do not like upper mids. It just means that we like to soften them a bit, since the human ear is more sensitive to those frequencies. For us to HEAR all frequencies at equal sound level, the lows and highs must be boosted. It is just the physics of the human ear. Does anybody know if a Denon 2309 or similar lets you tweak it's nine band EQ while listening to a source? Just look up something like "frequency response of the human ear" on google, and you can see the results of the scientific studies and graphs. I wonder if Pioneer could change this in a firmware update? We listen to music with our ears - not a test mic. Therefore we should be able to make subtle tweaks to the EQ while listening to a source with our ears.

Sorry for the rant - This just pi$$e$ me off a bit. This makes it take days instead of minutes to get the EQ dialed just right.
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post #546 of 5569 Old 04-14-2009, 03:02 PM
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Not to start an argument, coyote595, but the purpose of MCACC is to deliver an accurate (i.e. flat) response curve. That is the only way to insure that what the user hears is what the sound engineer, producer, performers (in the case of music) and director (in the case of movies) intended. Very talented people put great deal of effort into creating the desired sound and Pioneer is trying to preserve it to the extent possible.

All the EQ (or lack thereof) that is needed to produce the effect wanted is done in the production house. Live musical instruments sound the way they do because of our ear's response pattern. They do not have to be EQ'ed to sound as they do. (It might be argued that rock instruments are an exception, as they are almost always amplified, EQ'ed and played through a loudspeaker even in "live" concerts, but the same kind of EQ is applied in recordings. It doesn't have to be done again.)

That is not to suggest that everyone isn't entitled to their own taste, only that MCACC wasn't intended to help them alter the original. Tone and/or loudness controls are included for that purpose.

Would a more sophisticated or flexible set of tone controls be desirable? Maybe. They have been included in the past, but lost favor and are rarely seen anymore. I, for one, mourn the loss of the tape monitor and/or separate preamp out/amp in connections that allowed the use of outboard devices such as equalizers for those who wanted them, but the market doesn't support them anymore, either.
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post #547 of 5569 Old 04-14-2009, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote595 View Post

I agree! We should be able to tweak the EQ while listening to a music source.

Does anybody know if a Denon 2309 or similar lets you tweak it's nine band EQ while listening to a source?

Sorry for the rant - This just pi$$e$ me off a bit. This makes it take days instead of minutes to get the EQ dialed just right.

It's been several months now and I still haven't got it right. Yes I'm sure the 2309 allows you to tweak to the source because my 3806 did.

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Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Not to start an argument, coyote595, but the purpose of MCACC is to deliver an accurate (i.e. flat) response curve. That is the only way to insure that what the user hears is what the sound engineer, producer, performers (in the case of music) and director (in the case of movies) intended. Very talented people put great deal of effort into creating the desired sound and Pioneer is trying to preserve it to the extent possible.

All the EQ (or lack thereof) that is needed to produce the effect wanted is done in the production house. Live musical instruments sound the way they do because of our ear's response pattern. They do not have to be EQ'ed to sound as they do. (It might be argued that rock instruments are an exception, as they are almost always amplified, EQ'ed and played through a loudspeaker even in "live" concerts, but the same kind of EQ is applied in recordings. It doesn't have to be done again.)
.

But MacFan, this really doesn't address the issue because (1) given that it exists, it does not allow us to tweak to the source sound instead of the "enjoyable" sound of a test tone (2) MCACC should not even allow us to touch the EQ if this is the case and (3) Audyssey does not see it this way as they allow you to tweak to the source.
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post #548 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

But MacFan, this really doesn't address the issue because (1) given that it exists, it does not allow us to tweak to the source sound instead of the "enjoyable" sound of a test tone (2) MCACC should not even allow us to touch the EQ if this is the case and (3) Audyssey does not see it this way as they allow you to tweak to the source.

MCACC is trying to EQ the room (and speakers) to achieve an accurate response, nothing else. Pioneer didn't intend it to be a glorified tone control, although clearly many people have adopted workarounds to use it that way.

I'd guess (and it's merely speculation) they allow adjustments with test tones because under some circumstances it might be possible to do a more accurate calibration with an external SPL meter than with the internal program (especially by a professional). They seem to be deliberately discouraging people from making adjustments by ear, without instruments.

Having never used it, I can't claim familiarity with the intricacies of Audyssey, but RexCarson's post #268 describes is some detail how Audyssey's solution may not be ideal for your dilemma either.
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Originally Posted by RexCarson View Post

...Audyssey doesn't want you to be able to tweak the EQ/tone to the content, your hearing, or your tastes...

It appears that neither really designed their EQ program to be used for personalization. There are ways to achieve some with both, but with tradeoffs either way. Those who don't agree with Pioneer's approach have the option of selecting a different brand.
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post #549 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

Kind of makes it hard to tweak the dB for each frequency to my liking if all I hear is a test tone instead of music? I really do not like the MCACC EQ. I still haven't been able to tweak each freq to my liking because of this.

I'm pretty sure any system you go with MCACC, Audessy, and YPAO won't play music while you tweak these settings. I could be wrong on that, but I doubt it. The test tone (pink noise) is the standard for a reason. I know it's not the easiest to hear the differences, but it's not that hard to bump up a few dB's in each range (one at a time) and then play music to hear the difference.
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post #550 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 11:50 AM
 
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Ya but what sucks is that you have to do the L then the R, you can't bind them for EQ. Or can you?
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post #551 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by crOwcaine View Post

Ya but what sucks is that you have to do the L then the R, you can't bind them for EQ. Or can you?

Well in my one setting that isn't MCACC that I bumped up for flat sources (added a few dB's on the lows and highs) I changed both the dB's at the same time while I was in the menu for the L and R's. It's not that hard to go from the one screen (for the left) and then go right to the other (for the right) and make the same change. I would think that since my L and R's are the same speaker, changing them to be the same dB's would be about right.
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post #552 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 12:39 PM
 
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I'm talking about EQing in MANUAL MCACC.
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post #553 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Not to start an argument, coyote595.

No arguement here! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There are much bigger issues in life to argue over than how a stereo system should sound.

It just seems silly to have a top of the line AVR that has less convenient tone control than my 26 year old Kenwood stereo reveiver with outboard Teac 10 band EQ. I could make that system sound exactly as I wished in a few minutes. I still have it, and for music, I have yet to make my new SC-05 sound any better, with the exception that it seems to have a little lower noise floor.

Actually Pioneer does mention in the SC-05 manual that tweaking the EQ by ear is recommended if the auto set-up is still not satisfactory to the listener. The real issue here is not how something should sound, beacuse everyone will have a different opinion. I do not think someone else should determine for me how I like something to sound. If Pioneer or any other manfacturer goes to the effort to add a integral, adjustable EQ, there is no reason restrict is use to only a test tone source.

For example, if there is too much simblance in the sound of a singing voice, and the MCACC did not remove quite all of it, one should be able to listen to the source while slowly moving down the 4K and/or 8K sliders until it just goes away. If you cannot do that while listening to a test tone, it becomes this trial and error method going in and out of the EQ display until you get it right.

If someone likes the sound that someone else determined to be "good", there is nothing wrong with that. However, not everyone will agree that it sounds right. I play four musical instruments and listen to alot of live music. When the SC-05 adjusts the tone to flat, that is exactly how it sounds - flat. I would like my new, expensive receiver to be able to allow tailoring of the sound at least as easily and effectively as my vintage equipment does. After all, sound production and enhancement is what audio equipment is for. Everyone's ears are different.

This reminds me of Henry Ford's early policy that, "you can have your new Ford automobile any color you want - as long as it is black"!

Again, everyone's opinion is just a valuable as mine. There is no right answer when it comes to what sounds good. It is a personal preference. The manufacturers should make it easy for everyone to find the sound that is right for them. EQing to a test tone is not the easiest way to fine one's preferred sound.
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post #554 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 01:30 PM
 
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I was looking at switching to the UMC-1 from Emotiva when it comes out because of how mind-wrenching it is to not be able to EQ while listening to music. 9 band-EQ for pink noize only!? Ya that makes sense.
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post #555 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote595 View Post

...my 26 year old Kenwood stereo reveiver with outboard Teac 10 band EQ. I could make that system sound exactly as I wished in a few minutes.

...There is no right answer when it comes to what sounds good. It is a personal preference. The manufacturers should make it easy for everyone to find the sound that is right for them. EQing to a test tone is not the easiest way to fine one's preferred sound.

I wasn't defending the lack of personal preference options on modern receivers, only trying to point out that MCACC and it's ilk were designed for a different purpose. As I mentioned in my first post, I miss the ability to insert outboard devices as we once could.

It's probably more complicated now with all the channels and the much more sophisticated surround processing (which would have to deal with all the phase shifts that can be introduced by EQs) but I'd expect someone to have a solution to that by now, especially considering that it would seem to be possible to simply extend existing capabilities into additional uses. The fact that no one seems to do it very well suggests that it isn't as simple as it sounds, though.

I'd suggest manufacturers were trying to protect us from ourselves, but that doesn't prevent other features abhorrent to "purists" from being added.
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post #556 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 02:29 PM
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I think you're right mac. Pioneer was probably figuring we'd make things even worse if we had the ability to EQ by ear listening to music. It would be kind of like setting the speaker levels by ear without an SPL meter, and we all know how that turns out.

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post #557 of 5569 Old 04-15-2009, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by boomster View Post

I'm pretty sure any system you go with MCACC, Audessy, and YPAO won't play music while you tweak these settings. I could be wrong on that, but I doubt it. The test tone (pink noise) is the standard for a reason. I know it's not the easiest to hear the differences, but it's not that hard to bump up a few dB's in each range (one at a time) and then play music to hear the difference.

My Denon 3806 allows you to adjust the EQ with the music.

With MCACC, it's very difficult to tweak because after bumping it up/down, you have to exit the EQ and wait a few seconds until you hear music again. By then, you've lost the feel of the music before the adjustment. Then you have to go back into the EQ and, wait for the music to cut off, adjust it, exit and wait for the music to cut in again. You have to start over and over until you "think" it sounds right because you lose the feel for the music every time it cuts in and out...it does not end there, you then have to tweak the next frequency and then rebalance each frequency up/down respective to each other. It's almost an exponential routine!!!

Nothing like the good'ole outboard EQ to tweak to the sound.

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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

I think you're right mac. Pioneer was probably figuring we'd make things even worse if we had the ability to EQ by ear listening to music. It would be kind of like setting the speaker levels by ear without an SPL meter, and we all know how that turns out.

If this is the case, they should eliminate the EQ entirely. But as coyote pointed out, the manual states you can adjust it to your liking - except you have to use test tones - which is a joke.
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post #558 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

With MCACC, it's very difficult to tweak because after bumping it up/down, you have to exit the EQ and wait a few seconds until you hear music again. By then, you've lost the feel of the music before the adjustment. Then you have to go back into the EQ and, wait for the music to cut off, adjust it, exit and wait for the music to cut in again. You have to start over and over until you "think" it sounds right because you lose the feel for the music every time it cuts in and out...it does not end there, you then have to tweak the next frequency and then rebalance each frequency up/down respective to each other. It's almost an exponential routine!!!

I agree that having the audio while EQ'ing would be great. Being stuck as we are, though, here's one way to make it a bit easier to compare and not "loose the feel":

- Copy your MCACC profile to another "slot", ideally the next one in sequence
- Go in EQ, make your changes, get out.
- Then to test your change, switch back & forth between the two MCACC profiles.

Dan.
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post #559 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 06:03 AM
 
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Ok so when I get the reverb measurement and it's time for me to set my delay in mili-seconds in my copied MCACC 2 what do I look for in the graph? the first available time frame after it's first initial climb to flat across all channels? In the middle of the rising slope or what? This is the only setting I don't get.
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post #560 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 06:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

I think you're right mac. Pioneer was probably figuring we'd make things even worse if we had the ability to EQ by ear listening to music. It would be kind of like setting the speaker levels by ear without an SPL meter, and we all know how that turns out.

This is so far from true. I have been working at a company with a pro recording studio for 10 years and let me tell you that by ear I can EQ the HELL out of a system. Remember in studio formats we are listening to music as flat as can be. But NOT after! The fact that you can't EQ to live music is ridiculous, some of us know how to do it a lot better that a pre-set in a machine.
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post #561 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

My Denon 3806 allows you to adjust the EQ with the music..

Is this true??? If so, I wonder if the 2309 (with 9 band EQ) lets you do it as well. That is the model that I was considering before I was swayed by the ICE amp thing, which I have not found to be the great revelation that alot of people talk about. Maybe because I listen mostly to music and it is not as demanding as home theater use. I think the pioneer is definitely a nice unit that performs well. I would just like more user friendly "tweakability".

Maybe I will take my SC-05 back and try a Denon. The only thing is that the learning curve is so long and I am finally feeling comfortable with the Pioneer, except for the sound shaping inconveniences. Thanks for that info.
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post #562 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by crOwcaine View Post

This is so far from true. I have been working at a company with a pro recording studio for 10 years and let me tell you that by ear I can EQ the HELL out of a system. Remember in studio formats we are listening to music as flat as can be. But NOT after! The fact that you can't EQ to live music is ridiculous, some of us know how to do it a lot better that a pre-set in a machine.

Wow talk about jumping all over someone. I obviously touched a sore spot with you since you work in the business. I in no way meant to offend you. I think it's fair to say you are an exception to the norm. Most people don't work in recoding studios for a living and have their hearing trained over 10 yrs to EQ a system flat by ear. I'm talking about the average person, no need to get angry we aren't discussing world peace it's just software.

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post #563 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crOwcaine View Post

This is so far from true. I have been working at a company with a pro recording studio for 10 years and let me tell you that by ear I can EQ the HELL out of a system. Remember in studio formats we are listening to music as flat as can be. But NOT after! The fact that you can't EQ to live music is ridiculous, some of us know how to do it a lot better that a pre-set in a machine.

I think you should try Dan's suggestion, and just keep adjusting your settings from the base setting until you hear what you want.
Secondly, I guess to be as rude as you were; If you have these great ears you should already know what band(s) to bump up or down on the EQ and not need the pink noise or music. Kinda like being a composer the sound and tune should already be there.
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post #564 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ALLIANCE68 View Post

I think you should try Dan's suggestion.

Yes, I think Dan's suggestion is a good one. Still unnecessarily clumsy though. I think Pioneer should have given an option of a test tone for those who have the equipment to do a frequency sweep, or source play for those of us who have a set of familiar music that we know the way it should sound. I have some music that I have loved for years, so I know exactly how it should sound. For me, it is just hard to know which band(s) to adjust and by how much. If you can adjust the EQ real time during source play, it makes it easy to find the offending frequency band that need adjustment.

Someone on the Denon thread is going to test out this capability for me tonight. He thinks the Denon EQ can be adjusted on the fly. If it indeed can, I will give it a few more tries with the Pioneer to find my tonal sweetspot. If I am not successful, I will be trading it for a comparable Denon.

Thanks again!
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post #565 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by coyote595 View Post

Yes, I think Dan's suggestion is a good one. Still unnecessarily clumsy though. I think Pioneer should have given an option of a test tone for those who have the equipment to do a frequency sweep, or source play for those of us who have a set of familiar music that we know the way it should sound. I have some music that I have loved for years, so I know exactly how it should sound. For me, it is just hard to know which band(s) to adjust and by how much. If you can adjust the EQ real time during source play, it makes it easy to find the offending frequency band that need adjustment.

Someone on the Denon thread is going to test out this capability for me tonight. He thinks the Denon EQ can be adjusted on the fly. If it indeed can, I will give it a few more tries with the Pioneer to find my tonal sweetspot. If I am not successful, I will be trading it for a comparable Denon.

Thanks again!

On a music source ( sacd or cd) wouldn't running in pure direct solve this problem?
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post #566 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by coyote595 View Post

...Someone on the Denon thread is going to test out this capability for me tonight. He thinks the Denon EQ can be adjusted on the fly...

If RexCarson is correct, you can, but at the expense of effectively disabling Audyssey (see post #268). In your case, that may be a worthwhile trade, though.
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post #567 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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sorry guys, I didn't mean to sound like a dick. Our studio room has treatments for every reflection possible so you know what you're hearing, unfortunately my condo is acoustic hell. I can EQ until my nose bleeds then move 18 inches to the left and it sound terrible. I can reasonably EQ to the pink noize but real time does wonders for final tweaks. Once again guys, I didn't mean to come off as an a-hole, this thread has a lot of gems in it.
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post #568 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Wow talk about jumping all over someone. I obviously touched a sore spot with you since you work in the business. I in no way meant to offend you. I think it's fair to say you are an exception to the norm. Most people don't work in recoding studios for a living and have their hearing trained over 10 yrs to EQ a system flat by ear. I'm talking about the average person, no need to get angry we aren't discussing world peace it's just software.

I wouldn't worry about it. As I read it, he didn't personally call anyone names, just expressing his opinion.
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post #569 of 5569 Old 04-16-2009, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote595 View Post

Someone on the Denon thread is going to test out this capability for me tonight. He thinks the Denon EQ can be adjusted on the fly. If it indeed can, I will give it a few more tries with the Pioneer to find my tonal sweetspot. If I am not successful, I will be trading it for a comparable Denon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

If RexCarson is correct, you can, but at the expense of effectively disabling Audyssey (see post #268). In your case, that may be a worthwhile trade, though.

Even with my beef on this, I still prefer the SC series over any Denon. I played mine side by side in Pure with MCACC off and the Denon sounded more hollow, less bass. It sounded cleaner however and has a far superior GUI. You can EQ it, but somehow it is still too hard to get it to sound right. Also, only the 5308ci has THX, which is huge for me.

My 3806 didn't have all the problems with the new Denons as it did not have the newer Dynamic features.
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post #570 of 5569 Old 04-17-2009, 09:20 AM
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Even with my beef on this, I still prefer the SC series over any Denon.

Which SC do you have? SC-05?
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