"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 191 - AVS Forum
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post #5701 of 5717 Old 01-15-2015, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I decided to ask for thoughts on this over on the Audyssey thread. Turns out I can shed further light on where things should be at crossover-wise with MCACC. Some versions (not XT32) of Audyssey benefit from keeping a higher crossover point at say 80hz. However if you have genuinely capable speakers you can prob drop the crossover down to 60hz say without impinging on bass management with the more advanced XT32 version. I would suggest as this is generally true for most current REQ systems, that perhaps it the guide on page one could be amended to clarify crossover setup accordingly rather than a cursory comment given it's a very important element of bass management in any REQ system. In my system as it turns out 80hz is pretty much right on the money for the ML Motion series I use that have a response to 70hz, therefore allowing a bit of headroom.
Systems will a capable sub should XO the speaker at 50 or 80 Hz even if the speakers are rated +/- 3 db at 35 HZ. In general a sub will do a better job with the low bass than a tower speaker. There will be less speaker cone breakup which introduces distortion. The avr headroom is increased which helps for a more dynamic midrange. Anything below 63Hz with MCACC is not bass managed.

People feel a need to use low XO points because they have these great speakers. Wrong, I have Klipsch RF 7 HT and run the speakers set to small XO at 80 Hz. Even setting individual xo for each speaker in the majority of cases is not advantageous and dose not produce better SQ. A XO is meant to blend the drivers in the system and protect the drivers. That is it. No magic associated with it. IMHO, I will take MCACC over any of the Auddysee systems . What it dose with standing waves is just as important as Sub EQ.

Yeah man that's well stated, especially in the Audyssey thread. If you're running serious towers like for example Revel studios you prob do want go for closer to 60Hz crossover than 80hz. But that's more for stereo reproduction not HT benefit. 80Hz won't do any harm either, I ran mine that way before switching to a McIntosh with Room Perfect RC. However in the system I just recalibrated last night that runs Martin Login Motion series I kept to 80Hz as those little speakers only do 70Hz spec. Result listening today, brilliant super happy with way system sounds. Was even listening to stereo mode and sub integration is absolutely superb, so smooth. Finally can say I've ticked the box with MCACC. The SC-LX88 is a really nice little unit.
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post #5702 of 5717 Old 01-15-2015, 07:26 AM
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It seems that everyone has different experiences with MCACC but mine has taken a really strange turn. I recently decided to replace my Elite VSX-01TXH with an SC-82 and while I'm quite happy with it, MCACC has been really weird on it. When I first ran MCACC, I was getting somewhat bright results with excellent clarity. I re-ran MCACC after having the unit for almost a week, and the sound I'm getting now is tonally dark and not as clear as before. I've run it three times now and the results are consistent every single time. I don't know what is going on with it, but I feel that it's done a complete 180 in terms of sound. Anyone have any ideas? The only thing I've done differently is replace my speaker wire from 16 gauge to 14 gauge and I refuse to believe that's the reason for the change in tonality.

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post #5703 of 5717 Old 01-15-2015, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by LJ25 View Post
It seems that everyone has different experiences with MCACC but mine has taken a really strange turn. I recently decided to replace my Elite VSX-01TXH with an SC-82 and while I'm quite happy with it, MCACC has been really weird on it. When I first ran MCACC, I was getting somewhat bright results with excellent clarity. I re-ran MCACC after having the unit for almost a week, and the sound I'm getting now is tonally dark and not as clear as before. I've run it three times now and the results are consistent every single time. I don't know what is going on with it, but I feel that it's done a complete 180 in terms of sound. Anyone have any ideas? The only thing I've done differently is replace my speaker wire from 16 gauge to 14 gauge and I refuse to believe that's the reason for the change in tonality.
Any ceiling fans on during your calibration? That seriously affected my results.

There are never failures, only challenges.
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post #5704 of 5717 Old 01-15-2015, 08:20 AM
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Any ceiling fans on during your calibration? That seriously affected my results.
Yes, there is one.

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post #5705 of 5717 Old 01-15-2015, 08:27 AM
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Yes, there is one.
It will screw with your results big time. My mic is about 10 degrees from the center of my ceiling fan. Ensure to turn the fan off when running your calibration.

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post #5706 of 5717 Old 01-15-2015, 09:20 AM
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And put any loud animals and children somewhere else too!
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post #5707 of 5717 Old 01-15-2015, 11:19 AM
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And put any loud animals and children somewhere else too!
I only run MCACC when it is truly quiet, that being said, it looks to me that in order to truly reset a memory preset from a previous calibration is by running Full Auto first. After I did that, I followed the proper workflow (as I had done before) and the sound was back to when I first got the receiver.

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post #5708 of 5717 Old 01-19-2015, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean_S View Post
I found that using a good tripod and adjusting the orientation of the mic to point it slightly forward helped. Sitting it on a pillow on the couch at ear height did not yield good results. Also it must be absolutely quiet...I ended up unplugging two refrigerators, a water cooler, a fish tank, and turning off the furnace and two computers before I got decent results. Actually, the only thing I could hear during the calibration was the fan on the sc-87.

After doing all of this I found that the sound didn't differ much to my ears with the different calibration time. A bigger difference, although not that great, was between the 'all ch adjust' and 'symmetry' calibrations. And the biggest difference overall is between mcacc and no mcacc. I also have to say that I prefer no mcacc for stereo music listening. And that's interesting, and disappointing, to me because a good calibration, in my mind, should make everything sound better. Consequently, most of the time I leave EQ disabled.

Sean
To everyone having trouble getting good results with EQ, I'm going to explain some things that are not well known or understood, which hopefully will help you get better results.

First, you have to understand that EQ actually consists of two parts. The first part is direct sound equalization. The second part is room equalization.

Direct sound equalization is basically what's being modified when you use the built-in graphic equalizer. It modifies the sound that directly comes out of the speakers.

Room equalization is an attempt by the receiver to analyze the changes to the frequency response over time (aka the effects of reverb), then equalize them. In other words, it tries to minimize the difference across frequency bands. There is NO USER ADJUSTABLE DATA HERE. Once the reverb measurements are taken, room equalization is automatically enabled unless the equalizer is disabled.

Honestly, it took me like 4 years to realize that there was a "hidden" equalizer that was using the reverb measurements to make non-adjustable changes. Here are things that demonstrate room equalization is in effect:

1. Out-of-the box, Pure Direct will sound virtually identical to Direct, given that you have made no other changes.

2. Once the you make reverb measurements, Pure Direct will no longer sound the same as Direct, even with the graphic equalizer is set to +0.0 dB the entire way.

You can make reverb measurements by either running Full Auto MCACC, Auto MCACC (ALL), or by going into Manual MCACC -> EQ Pro and making a reverb measurement with equalization OFF.

3. If you look the reverb view, the equalizer can actually change the rising slope of each frequency band; it actually equalizes the room's effect on each frequency band over time. This is not something that is achievable with just a direct sound equalizer.

Now even with room equalization, you might still want to make manual adjustments with the graphic equalizer, to modify the direct sound coming from the speakers. The reasons are:

1. Your ears hear a combination of the direct sound from the speaker PLUS the effects of the room. By modifying the direct sound, you are still altering the sound at the listening position for a target time.

2. The room equalizer isn't perfect, and there will usually still be differences among speakers.

3. Tolerance of components used in speakers are not very tight, so the FR characteristics of the direct sound from the speakers won't be identical.

4. You might not like the FR characteristics of the direct sound coming from your speakers.

What you can do, as a start, is to set the equalizer to +0.0 dB for one speaker, then adjust the equalizer for the other speaker so that it matches. Ideally, you should use a good measurement mic for this, but if you don't have one, you can just take a reverb measurement with equalization ON, view the results, and make adjustments from the data.

For me, I just use minor EQ adjustments to get the front two speakers to match, FR-wise. Tonally, it sounds very similar to what I get in Pure Direct mode, but with these additional benefits:
1. Light + Right are matched more closely in FR, producing a better stereo image.

2. Room equalization is enabled, so the image is much more stable.
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post #5709 of 5717 Old 01-19-2015, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by superbooga View Post
...
First, you have to understand that EQ actually consists of two parts. The first part is direct sound equalization. The second part is room equalization.
...
There is NO USER ADJUSTABLE DATA HERE. Once the reverb measurements are taken, room equalization is automatically enabled unless the equalizer is disabled.

Honestly, it took me like 4 years to realize that there was a "hidden" equalizer that was using the reverb measurements to make non-adjustable changes.
...
This is not something that is achievable with just a direct sound equalizer. ... .
Thanks for sharing your experience. You're conclusions make sense.

However, did you consider that what your calling the "hidden equalizer" could actually be the frequency phase/delay adjustment, aka, "phase control"? To test we would have to disable the phase control options in MCACC and then compare the different modes again.

Sean
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post #5710 of 5717 Old 01-19-2015, 02:35 PM
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I need to re-run MCACC and since it's been so long since I've done it, is the below step-by-step instructions still my best bet?

From page 3
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Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post
OK....This is what I know feel I know about the proper work flow to get the most out of MCAAC after reading the receiver manual and the Advanvced MCAAC manual. This is also the work flow I plan to use this weekend when the wife gives me a few hours alone in the house.

Work Flow:

1) Set Reciever to MCAAC preset 1 (M1). Now Run Auto MCAAC with mic in you listening position (I taped the mic to the top of a two foot long shoe horn, and stuck the shoe horn inbetween the couch cushions, so the mic is right where my ears are during listening).

2) Go into Manual Sp Setup and change the SP settings if neccessary(crossover to 100hz for me and speakers to small)

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings.

4) Now you have an Auto MCAAC calibration saved to M1 (....note: you must select which preset you want Auto MCAAC to save calibration data to before you enter the audio setup menu.) Now go into Data Management--------> Data Copy and copy M1's data to M2 and also to M3. Now you have carbon copies of this calibration in M1-M3.

5) Now go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb Measurement and get a reading on the the frequency response characteristics of your room. Be sure to select EQ OFF(standing waves not controlled for via MCAAC fliters) in the Reverb Measurement menu because you don't want the standing wave adjustements (EQ on) to be factored in to the room reverb measurments. Also make sure you haven't moved the mic.

6) After test tones are done, go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb View , and you can analyze the frequency response of individual channels at various frequencies. Based upon that data, you would select the appropriate capture delay time for MCAAC to capture data during for the upcoming EQ calibration.

Change that time frame under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to whatever you decide is the appropriate capture delay time ....(Pioneer recommends 30-50 ms, but they encourage you to analyze the data under reverb view first and refer to the advanced MCAAc software manual for analysis purposes). Note: the default capture delay time is than 80-160 ms.

7) Change to MCAAC preset 2 (M2) before you run the new advanced EQ calibration with the new capture time. Go under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to start the advanced EQ calibration, and MCAAC should make a more accurate calibration since it will now capture sonic information sooner after the speakers output sound, and get a read on what the frequency response is of the speakers themselves, and not the speakers and all the reverb which accumulates as time passes. (Default capture time is 80-160 ms and thus collects more reverb and less true speaker reading)

Now you should have an accurate calibration. Also, now you can easily compare the Auto MCAAC EQ effects that are stored in M1 with the advanced EQ effects in M2 while listening to content with a simple button press on the remote. You could also juice the base a few db in M3, and also compare running the base a bit hot to a flat calibration that you have in M1 and M2.

Advanced MCAAC Manual (especially read pages 18-20)

VSX-1018 owners manual (especially read pages 38-50)

If I am wrong about something (which is possible), let me know. I did this so that folks looking to get the most out of their equipment could better do that. The whole Auto MCAAC thing can be a bit confusing, so maybe you can benefit from my research and tinkering.
TYIA
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post #5711 of 5717 Old 01-19-2015, 02:42 PM
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I need to re-run MCACC and since it's been so long since I've done it, is the below step-by-step instructions still my best bet?

From page 3


TYIA
That is the one I always used and it worked perfectly!!

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post #5712 of 5717 Old 01-19-2015, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean_S View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience. You're conclusions make sense.

However, did you consider that what your calling the "hidden equalizer" could actually be the frequency phase/delay adjustment, aka, "phase control"? To test we would have to disable the phase control options in MCACC and then compare the different modes again.

Sean
It's possible. Phase alteration is probably part of the adjustments made by the room equalizer, and the use of IIR (infinite impulse response) filters will change the phase, whether intended or not.

But note that there are separate buttons to turn on/off equalization and phase control. If reverb measurements are made, just turning off the equalization will produce a different sound even when everything is set to +0.0 dB in the user-adjustable equalizer.

Strictly speaking, basic phase control should only be trying to align the bass output from the subwoofer and speakers. I'm not sure to what level it works on -- maybe it only does it for the subwoofer and front speakers? We could try testing to see if it has any effect when only the fronts are used. For fullband phase control, it will try to align multiple frequency bands across multiple speakers.

I think the biggest problem with MCACC is it's target EQ curve sounds very un-musical. On my system, it wanted to boost 8 KHz by 6 dB, when my own measurements showed that it was only 2 or 3 dB down. Many people prefer a slightly boosted bass and midrange, but MCACC pretty much eliminates that.
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post #5713 of 5717 Old 01-20-2015, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by superbooga View Post
But note that there are separate buttons to turn on/off equalization and phase control. If reverb measurements are made, just turning off the equalization will produce a different sound even when everything is set to +0.0 dB in the user-adjustable equalizer.
Aha, I missed that point. I see what you are saying now. Even with the eq controls flat, enabling eq engages "something". (house curve??) This proves my point that, OOTB, Normal mode with EQ and phase control disabled, Direct, and PURE Direct should sound the same--fundamentally, but they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superbooga View Post
I think the biggest problem with MCACC is it's target EQ curve sounds very un-musical. On my system, it wanted to boost 8 KHz by 6 dB, when my own measurements showed that it was only 2 or 3 dB down. Many people prefer a slightly boosted bass and midrange, but MCACC pretty much eliminates that.
I agree. It's target sounds good for movies, but not so much for music. ....which leads me to think I'm either doing something wrong such that the mic can't get good readings in my room, or it's target it not technically flat. One of these days I'm going to get a REW setup going and actually measure the in room freq response with and without MCACC.

Sean

Last edited by Sean_S; 01-20-2015 at 09:46 AM.
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post #5714 of 5717 Old Yesterday, 12:43 AM
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I think it targets a flat response. A flat response is usually very enjoyable for movies and music. Some people like a house curve with the low end base jacked up. This can be done with additional PEQ/DSP found in some pro-amps, or Mini DSP.
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post #5715 of 5717 Old Yesterday, 05:47 PM
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I've noticed that my pioneer clips full rgb video. My ato hd7750 can output rgb 16-265, 0-255. However the pioneer shows limited rgb for both modes and i cam see that in 0-255 it color clips. Pioneer elite Sc-lx87

HTPC (MediaPortal) / Pioneer SC LX87 / Wharfedale Jade 7 Fronts, 5 Rears, 2c Center / DIY Sub
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post #5716 of 5717 Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwijunglist View Post
I've noticed that my pioneer clips full rgb video. My ato hd7750 can output rgb 16-265, 0-255. However the pioneer shows limited rgb for both modes and i cam see that in 0-255 it color clips. Pioneer elite Sc-lx87
And what does that have to do with MCACC ?

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Hi everyone. Same question as a lot of others on here, I have a sc1223-k love it and the sound is brilliant but only with the EQ off, I have done the calibration a number of different ways but it always sounds better on a preset what is untouched or with EQ off.
I'm not bothered having it off but I know it could sound better when the EQ is set up properly.
Any suggestions to what I can try?
Do you have EQ on or off?
Why isn't mcacc doing what it is meant to do and set the system up to its full potential?
When I turn the unit on the EQ is always set to on even if I set it to off before hand how can I change this?
Setup I have is 5.0 Dali zensor 7 front, dali vokal, zensor 1 rears. My room is small 4x3m so no need for a sub the bass is excellent makes the sofa shake! Lol
Anyway your input would be much appreciated
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