"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I think you are supposed to run auto setup first. If satisfied with this then OK. Most people are not and at least go to the next step.

Manually correct speaker size, distance, and level(with spl meter). Re-run Auto MCCAC, at bottom where it says START, change to CUSTOM. Click OK, then at next screen, select KEEP SPEAKER SETTING. This will re-run MCCAC but keep you speaker size, distance, and level settings and re-calibrate.

If you are still not satisfied, you can use Manual MCCAC, Acoustic EQ Pro. Using this you can perform reverb measurments on your room. Using your reverb graphs you can select the time delay for MCCAC to use when acquiring the input for auto calibration. However I still am unsure how to interpret the graphs to determine where on the time axis to collect sound measurments. My graph flattens out after about 50ms, so I use the 50-60ms setting for acquisition, Not sure if this is "correct" or not.

I hope this is accurate and helpful.

Pioneer has downloadable "MCACC Software Manuals" that give more information. For the time period (time delay), there is a complete section on that subject ("Deciding the time period for Advanced EQ Setup calibration") on page 19 in both manuals I looked over (2 pages).

The manuals can be found on this page: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eivers.Default

Lexicon, probably a good idea to include that link in the first post.

Dan.
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post #32 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Maestro J View Post

But what does moving sub to "plus" actually do?
Thanks.

Plus will send LFE material to your mains in addition to your SW. If you run your speakers "small" and have a capable SW, do not set it to PLUS.

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post #33 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Plus will send LFE material to your mains in addition to your SW. If you run your speakers "small" and have a capable SW, do not set it to PLUS.

I don't think I can set mine to PLUS unless the mains are set to LARGE.
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post #34 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Personally, I ran auto MCACC and of course it selected my mains as LARGE. I immediately changed it, and then manually ran the rest of the calibrations, EQ, 3-position standing wave, and full band phase.
"front align" EQ's all your speakers EXCEPT it leaves the mains untouched. And of course it does nothing to the subwoofer. So basically no test tones are sent to the mains and subwoofer during the "front align" calibration.

so basically run the All auto setup first. Then run individual setups but keep the speaker settings that the first one came up with?


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post #35 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I don't think I can set mine to PLUS unless the mains are set to LARGE.

Yes, I stand corrected you are right

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post #36 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

so basically run the All auto setup first. Then run individual setups but keep the speaker settings that the first one came up with?

A few posts ago, "nickshitachi" had a good explaination of how to change your speaker settings and run the calibrations while keeping the changes.

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post #37 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 06:19 AM
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i have the vsx-91txh, so my mcacc setup is a little different. i have the option to select ALL, ALL keep sp settings, Speaker setting,channel level, speaker distance, acoustic cal eq, acoustic cal eq pro
I have a spl meter that I use to get the speaker levels and distance correct.

EQ Type (only available when the Auto Mode above is
Acoustic Cal EQ or Aco Cal EQ Pro.) – This
determines how the frequency balance is adjusted.
ALL CH ADJUST (default) is a ‘flat’ setting where all
the speakers are set individually so no special
weighting is given to any one channel. Optionally,5
FRONT ALIGN sets all speakers in accordance with
the front speaker settings (no equalization is applied
to the front left and right channels), and OFF (only
available when ALL is selected) allows you to save
calibration settings (such as speaker distance and
channel level) with no EQ or standing wave
adjustment to your selected preset.


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post #38 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I don't think I can set mine to PLUS unless the mains are set to LARGE.

Okay, you guys are right. I just tried it and plus is not an option if speakers are set to small. I guess I saw it when the MCACC set the speakers to large and I thought it was still an option.
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post #39 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

Pioneer has downloadable "MCACC Software Manuals" that give more information. For the time period (time delay), there is a complete section on that subject ("Deciding the time period for Advanced EQ Setup calibration") on page 19 in both manuals I looked over (2 pages).

The manuals can be found on this page: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eivers.Default

Lexicon, probably a good idea to include that link in the first post.

Dan.

Thanks for that Dan.

I hope someone can help me here.

I have a vsx-82 and I assume that on "auto", it ran the Professional Acoustic Calibration EQ automatically, right?

The vsx-59 has this feature but is not included in the auto mode, right?

I might have to check in the 59 forum cuz I'm confuzed

Thanks for the software link


bob
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post #40 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 07:30 AM
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if yours is like mine. yes i think it runs the auto eq pro.


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post #41 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

if yours is like mine. yes i think it runs the auto eq pro.

My 82 or my 59?

yours?


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post #42 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 08:17 AM
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i have a 91


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post #43 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Plus will send LFE material to your mains in addition to your SW. If you run your speakers "small" and have a capable SW, do not set it to PLUS.

Actually, it's the other way around. "Plus" (aka "double bass") sends the low frequency material intended for any non-LFE channel to any speaker set to Large AND to the subwoofer. The LFE material still goes only to the subwoofer. (LFE is directed to speakers set as Large only when the sub is "No" or "Off")

As noted, Plus can't be applied to speakers set to small, as their low frequency signals are already redirected to the subwoofer and Small speakers are unable to reproduce them by definition.

Many people like this effect, but it does not result in accurate bass. Since the amount of bass directed to the non-LFE channels varies greatly by source (each sound engineer independently decides how to do it for each project), there is no way to predict or calibrate the outcome.

To quote an Audyssey representative:

" …low frequency content is sent to BOTH the speaker and the subwoofer. If they happen to overlap in frequency response then you get double the bass—not good. I have it on good authority that this (“Double Bass”) mode was invented for people who can’t sleep at night because their speakers were detected as Small. Now they can keep their speakers as Large and use this kludge to still send bass to the subwoofer."

I'm more inclined to think it was invented for those who can't sleep because nothing comes out of their subwoofer with some sources (e.g. stereo music) when their mains are set to Large, but either way, it counters the intent of equalizing the system to a flat response.
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post #44 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Actually, it's the other way around. "Plus" (aka "double bass") sends the low frequency material intended for any non-LFE channel to any speaker set to Large AND to the subwoofer. The LFE material still goes only to the subwoofer. (LFE is directed to speakers set as Large only when the sub is "No" or "Off")

As noted, Plus can't be applied to speakers set to small, as their low frequency signals are already redirected to the subwoofer and Small speakers are unable to reproduce them by definition.

Many people like this effect, but it does not result in accurate bass. Since the amount of bass directed to the non-LFE channels varies greatly by source (each sound engineer independently decides how to do it for each project), there is no way to predict or calibrate the outcome.

To quote an Audyssey representative:

" low frequency content is sent to BOTH the speaker and the subwoofer. If they happen to overlap in frequency response then you get double the bassnot good. I have it on good authority that this (Double Bass) mode was invented for people who can't sleep at night because their speakers were detected as Small. Now they can keep their speakers as Large and use this kludge to still send bass to the subwoofer."

I'm more inclined to think it was invented for those who can't sleep because nothing comes out of their subwoofer with some sources (e.g. stereo music) when their mains are set to Large, but either way, it counters the intent of equalizing the system to a flat response.

Duh And I didn't even have a drink last night

Thanks for clarifying

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post #45 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 11:16 AM
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macfan, are you saying it is better to have low freq go to the fronts as well as the sub?
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post #46 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 11:17 AM
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keep your speakers set to small. they cannot reproduce 20hz bomb blasts.


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post #47 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by crazyteach View Post

macfan, are you saying it is better to have low freq go to the fronts as well as the sub?

No, I was trying to say just the opposite. Guess my writing skills need help.

As nezff said, experts almost always recommend that all speakers be set to Small when used with a subwoofer.
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post #48 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 11:33 AM
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thanks for the clarification.
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post #49 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

keep your speakers set to small. they cannot reproduce 20hz bomb blasts.

Yeah, but what about 60hz bomb blasts, etc?


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post #50 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 02:44 PM
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my speakers 3db cutoff is 32hz. Im not sure about some other guys, but setting a speaker to large is asking it to reproduce every frequency, and they cant.


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post #51 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

my speakers 3db cutoff is 32hz. Im not sure about some other guys, but setting a speaker to large is asking it to reproduce every frequency, and they cant.

On the other hand, it's doubtful that many sound engineers go much below 35-40Hz or so in their main channel mixes very often, at least when they are including an LFE. They know that only a small percentage of speakers in use go any deeper, and I'm sure they take that into consideration. Not much point in including an effect that most users won't hear.
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post #52 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Maestro J View Post

Okay, you guys are right. I just tried it and plus is not an option if speakers are set to small. I guess I saw it when the MCACC set the speakers to large and I thought it was still an option.

Normally if your speakers are set to large, the sub will not augment them. With plus, the sub will run as well as the speakers that are set to large.
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post #53 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

my speakers 3db cutoff is 32hz. Im not sure about some other guys, but setting a speaker to large is asking it to reproduce every frequency, and they cant.

When I set my B&W 805's and HTM-1 to small, they just sound puny. And then any Pro logic material has no sub output!


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post #54 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

When I set my B&W 805's and HTM-1 to small, they just sound puny. And then any Pro logic material has no sub output!


bob


Then your system is not setup correctly.
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post #55 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Then your system is not setup correctly.

My bad. I mean no pro logic sub out when speakers are set to large, sub "yes".


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post #56 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

No, I was trying to say just the opposite. Guess my writing skills need help.

As nezff said, experts almost always recommend that all speakers be set to Small when used with a subwoofer.

I would love to have a Pioneer tech, who really understands MCACC, answer this.
If that's the case, why bother having floor standing fronts that will go down lower than say 40HZ, in a surround system that includes a sub? If all speakers should be small and the x-over set at 80Hz (that's the most recommended level), a good speaker that goes to 60Hz or so would be all anyone really should use. Paying extra for a floor stander that goes down low would be a waste.
I have an older pair of Mirage speakers with integrated subs with their own amps. (Model Frx-9). They go down below 30Hz. For that reason and because the amp isn't being asked to drive the low frequencies through them, I have them set as large and my sub set as plus. Now, I don't believe I'm getting too much base where the two overlap. I see that the LFE channel and low base sent to the mains set as large, are two different things, but that takes me back to my earlier question about bothering with floor standing speakers in the first place.
Also, maybe I'm one of those people that have trouble sleeping for one of the reason's stated above. I sure don't hear any excess boom though.
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post #57 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 08:19 PM
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Tower speakers are mainly beneficial for music where most ppl will disable MCACC and use Direct or pure Direct mode. That or for braging rights


If you use any THX processing mode, all speakers will be automatically set to small and cross over set to 80Hz. In fact, for best results, you should use only THX certified speakers which only go down to 80Hz and require a specific rolling off slop below 80Hz.

Not all tower speakers are created the same. Some will struggle to reproduce LFE and muffle the mid and highs if you do so. So, in the end, you base your judgement on your own experiment. There is no clear cut answers.
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post #58 of 5569 Old 01-25-2009, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Tower speakers are mainly beneficial for music where most ppl will disable MCACC and use Direct or pure Direct mode. That or for braging rights


If you use any THX processing mode, all speakers will be automatically set to small and cross over set to 80Hz. In fact, for best results, you should use only THX certified speakers which only go down to 80Hz and require a specific rolling off slop below 80Hz.

Not all tower speakers are created the same. Some will struggle to reproduce LFE and muffle the mid and highs if you do so. So, in the end, you base your judgement on your own experiment. There is no clear cut answers.

Not true

On my 82, my speakers are large and I apply THX Cinema all the time.


bob
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post #59 of 5569 Old 01-26-2009, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Not true

On my 82, my speakers are large and I apply THX Cinema all the time.


bob

LoL. You didn't get it. You can set your speaker to large, xtra large or whatever. But if you use THX, it will automatically turn it into small with 80Hz crossover. That's the definition of THX.
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post #60 of 5569 Old 01-26-2009, 06:12 AM
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MCACC is still applied when Direct mode is chosen, right? If not then what else does direct mode disable?


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