"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 213 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6361 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Transfix View Post
So to get clearer vocal audio is raising the C channel level the best option or is there another method that is preferred?
You can try turning "Dialog Enhancement" on, or manually adjusting the center channel eq with a boost to the 1kHz band.

Or you could get a better center channel speaker.


Michael
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post #6362 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 08:43 AM
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So once you're finished with the audio calibration
you can turn your attention to the video calibration
This is, after all, AVSforum.

Michael
The video has been calibrated for a long time.
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post #6363 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 08:53 AM
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Then it's about time you got started on the audio!

Michael

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post #6364 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 09:00 AM
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^ Well, I thought I had. Channel balance, delays, etc. I thought I was really getting somewhere with MCACC. It seems there is still a considerable portion of the equalization aspect of audio calibration that is subjective rather than objective. There doesn't seem to be one hard, concrete, evident answer for correctly setting for the EQ.

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post #6365 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You can try turning "Dialog Enhancement" on, or manually adjusting the center channel eq with a boost to the 1kHz band.

Or you could get a better center channel speaker.


Michael
I'll try the other options because I have a very good speaker setup so that is def not the issue.

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post #6366 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 03:05 PM
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There doesn't seem to be one hard, concrete, evident answer for correctly setting for the EQ.
That's why it's called a "house curve." EQ to flat, to eliminate (okay, reduce ) the effects of the room. From that starting point, modify to taste. My house curve used to be flat to about 80Hz, "elbow" about 10dB to 100Hz, then flat. My current house curve has a gradual slope to about 200Hz, then flat. As my deep bass has improved, I needed to restore my mid-bass.
All of which requires more control than MCACC provides. That's not to say it's useless, and the fact that it offers some user control I think is much better that Audyssey's on or off approach.
REW will help you with speaker position and room treatments, and will show you what MCACC has done (great for running MCACC at several different settings and seeing, rather than just hearing, the difference).
How crazy you get after that is up to you (see: Rabbit hole).

Michael

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post #6367 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 03:27 PM
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^ That is exactly what I find so frustrating. On the video side I can calibrate and duplicate, to the limits of my video display, the video seen on studio's display. The references for D65 grayscale, color primaries, color level, tint, black level, contrast, gamma, etc. are all available. It's not an issue of "modify to taste" or "experiment and see what looks best." If it were, I'd be just as frustrated with the video side of things. I want it to make it sound, within the limits of my system, identical to the final playback in the studio, but I don't even know what that sounds like. I can somewhat guess by how movies sound in THX and Dolby Cinema theaters, but I can no more accurately adjust my audio based on the memory of what the movie sounded like in the theater than I can accurately adjust my video based on my memory of what the image looked like in the theater.
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post #6368 of 6377 Old 04-09-2017, 05:29 PM
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Actually, video can be just as confusing. I like BT.1886, but that "curve" might not work for you. But it's a target, then adjust to taste.
Many home theaters can actually sound better than commercial theaters, especially when it comes to deep bass. It's impossible to pressurize a huge theater; it's fairly easy in a closed, relatively small room. I cheat with a ButtKicker, but I have an open room and a wife who would object to a wall of subwoofers.
So the "standard" for audio is even response across all frequencies. Tests have shown that human hearing follows this curve:
http://www.independentrecording.net/...ensitivity.htm
If your measurements follow that curve, then your ears will hear an even response across the whole spectrum.
Of course, not all of us have "average" hearing, so, wait for it,...adjust to taste.
Start playing with REW. It's a fun learning curve, little different from video calibration with HCFR.
Michael

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post #6369 of 6377 Old 04-10-2017, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfix View Post
So to get clearer vocal audio is raising the C channel level the best option or is there another method that is preferred?
On my system I've left the center channel level at what MCACC set it to. When watching movies I've found the vocal/dialog audio to have quite a dynamic range, sometimes quiet, sometimes loud. When the dialog is loud I certainly wouldn't want it any louder in comparison to the other speakers. Even when quiet I find it extremely rare that it gets lost in the sound mix. My difficulty understanding dialog is almost always the result of accents in combination with unexpected lines, the kind of stuff I'm going to have difficulty with no matter how loud it is. Dialog is rarely less than crystal clear except when it apparently supposed to be (such as character with bag over his head and back to the camera).

Is your center channel speaker aimed (tilted) toward your listening position (height)? If not, I'd suggest getting your center channel aimed as directly as possible at your listening position before the other suggestions. Placing a center speaker above or below a TV often results in the speaker being aimed well above or below the listening position, and this can have an audible effect. Also if you have an uncarpeted floor or a coffee table between you and the center speaker, I'd recommend trying to reduce or diffuse the possible sound reflections from those (put a thick rug on the floor, remove the coffee table, etc.) to see if it makes a difference. Of course you'll need to run the MCACC calibration again after doing that.

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post #6370 of 6377 Old 04-10-2017, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
On my system I've left the center channel level at what MCACC set it to. When watching movies I've found the vocal/dialog audio to have quite a dynamic range, sometimes quiet, sometimes loud. When the dialog is loud I certainly wouldn't want it any louder in comparison to the other speakers. Even when quiet I find it extremely rare that it gets lost in the sound mix. My difficulty understanding dialog is almost always the result of accents in combination with unexpected lines, the kind of stuff I'm going to have difficulty with no matter how loud it is. Dialog is rarely less than crystal clear except when it apparently supposed to be (such as character with bag over his head and back to the camera).

Is your center channel speaker aimed (tilted) toward your listening position (height)? If not, I'd suggest getting your center channel aimed as directly as possible at your listening position before the other suggestions. Placing a center speaker above or below a TV often results in the speaker being aimed well above or below the listening position, and this can have an audible effect. Also if you have an uncarpeted floor or a coffee table between you and the center speaker, I'd recommend trying to reduce or diffuse the possible sound reflections from those (put a thick rug on the floor, remove the coffee table, etc.) to see if it makes a difference. Of course you'll need to run the MCACC calibration again after doing that.
My center is eye level when sitting on the couch however now that I am listening after the calibration at -15, -20 everything is pretty clear. I think messing with the volume levels as I did before was not the best approach.

Thanks for the help guys.

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post #6371 of 6377 Old 04-10-2017, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post
I recommend looking at it from the perspective of "are the towers definitely better at handling lower than 80 Hz than the subwoofer?" rather than "can the towers go lower than 80?" The crossover is not a brick wall, so even with the crossover set at 80 the towers will still be contributing to frequencies below 80Hz. However the subwoofer will being doing the heavy lifting at those frequencies. If you set the crossover to 50Hz the towers will be doing the heavy lifting down to that point (with the exclusion of the LFE channel). Also consider that you are freeing up the main amps feeding your towers from the heaving lifting work below 80Hz (or whatever you have the crossover set to). If you know for certain that your towers are better at reproducing the 50-80Hz range than your subwoofer, then you might have a reason to consider setting the crossover lower.
So I've seen this a few times about freeing up the main amps from some heavy lifting. If the towers have powered subwoofers and their own amps does this apply? Or because it's a low frequency range it still can tax the Pioneer receiver so raising the xover from 50 to 80 actually does help?
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post #6372 of 6377 Old 04-10-2017, 05:31 PM
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When switching to Pure Direct bass management is bypassed correct? So when listening to stereo music does pure direct essentially change the front speakers to large making them full range?
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post #6373 of 6377 Old 04-10-2017, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSollecito View Post
So I've seen this a few times about freeing up the main amps from some heavy lifting. If the towers have powered subwoofers and their own amps does this apply? Or because it's a low frequency range it still can tax the Pioneer receiver so raising the xover from 50 to 80 actually does help?
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When switching to Pure Direct bass management is bypassed correct? So when listening to stereo music does pure direct essentially change the front speakers to large making them full range?
Interesting. You do have a setup where I'd consider an alternate. My thought would be to set the front L&R channels (where you have the towers) to LARGE, leave the other channels at SMALL, and still use 80Hz for the crossover. This still provides bass management for all the other speakers, and sends most of their content below 80Hz to be mixed with the LFE going to the SVS. It will however leave the entire full range of the L&R channels to the towers, letting their internal crossovers send the appropriate low frequencies to the powered subwoofers in them (if I'm understanding how they work correctly). The advantage of the low frequencies being handled by the towers is that with two of them they may somewhat mitigate room nodes and standing waves for the bass they are handling. They may also provide better phase relationship through the crossover frequency. These two things may make the bass more uniform independent of listening position. You'll also have stereo bass, which may lessen the uniformity of bass and probably won't be particularly noticeable otherwise. The downside is that they may not be as good at producing the low bass as your SVS, and the SVS can be positioned for the best bass response, although the bass response from the SVS may be highly dependent upon listening position in the room. You might try both ways to see if one sounds better to you. Unless having them set to SMALL is detectably better, I think I would leave the L&R fronts set to LARGE in your case.

You are correct that Pure Direct bypasses all bass management. It will make all the speaker channels full range. Nothing gets sent to the subwoofer except the LFE channel (if it is present). It also bypasses EQ, phase control, etc.
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post #6374 of 6377 Old 04-11-2017, 04:00 PM
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I installed a Pioner SC-LX801 last week. So far, I'm very happy. But there seems to be on thing missing that I really liked about my Pioneer VSX-94TXH. Namely, an MCACC toggle button to switch between the various MCACC memories.

Granted, the LX801 only has 3 memories. But I use Memory 1 (renamed Movie) for the living room theater and Memory 2 (renamed Party) for the garage theater. I ran full auto MCACC on each memory (once in the living room and once with everything set up in the garage) and those settings are remembered by each memory (the individual speaker settings are different between the two memories) but, for the life of me, I can't figure out how to easily toggle through the various MCACC memories when the LX801 is on. If I bring up the full MCACC menu and go to manual data check, I can select the memory I want. But turning the receiver off and back on again always defaults it back to Memory 1. That is NOT how my previous model worked. Once I set/toggled to a MCACC memory, it stayed at that memory even through a power down.

What am I missing?

Edit: Never mind, I finally figured out that toggling through options in AV ADJUST allows me to select which MCACC memory I want to use and the setting gets remembered through a power cycle.


Mark

Last edited by Mark Booth; 04-11-2017 at 04:12 PM.
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post #6375 of 6377 Old 04-11-2017, 06:33 PM
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Edit: Never mind, I finally figured out that toggling through options in AV ADJUST allows me to select which MCACC memory I want to use and the setting gets remembered through a power cycle.


Mark
I'm glad you were able to figure it out. The basic/advanced manual format for the newer receivers appears to be woefully lacking in detail.
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post #6376 of 6377 Old Today, 05:42 AM
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Before i calibrate, what position should the gain knob be on the rear of the subwoofer? I have a Monolith plus?
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post #6377 of 6377 Old Today, 04:22 PM
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Before i calibrate, what position should the gain knob be on the rear of the subwoofer? I have a Monolith plus?
I'd recommend starting with it at minimum and then turn it up while playing something until you can definitely hear the subwoofer but not until the bass is excessive. (Basically setting the gain as described in the manual for your subwoofer.) Then run the calibration. If the subwoofer level set by MCACC on the Pioneer is outside the range of 0 to -10 dB, then I would adjust the gain on the subwoofer accordingly and run MCACC again. Some try to get it exactly at 0 dB, but I don't think it is that critical. The idea is to keep the preamp (in the Pioneer) from having to boost the signal, but also to keep the subwoofer from having to amplify an excessively weak signal from the preamp.
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