"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

CHP and Mac.....Thanks for the replies. What time delay alignment are you using for the EQ? I was using 60-80ms.

On the SC-07 I settled on 30~50ms... On the SC-09TX, I think 40~60ms.. I'm still playing making adjustments, so that may change as early as tonight.. definitely by the weekend...

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
Questions about the SC-07 or SC-05? start here
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post #632 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Fabricator View Post

...i get 20hz @ 118db @ my chairs...

W/ that SPL, that is definitely not linear bass, that is over hyped bass.

AJ
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post #633 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabricator View Post

...the amps clip limited is engaged. no, i never tried it disengaged...

You might try it Off. Shouldn't do any harm when driven by consumer gear. I'm sure its there for use under the abusive conditions that could occur in a pro application. I don't know how the EP2500's clipping limiter circuit is designed, but some of them incorporate an input attenuator which could lead to the results you are experiencing.
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post #634 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciccio250 View Post

I just got my system up (Energy Rc50s, RCLCR, CR10s and prestige s10 sub) This is all new to me, I have a pioneer elite receiver (03thx) I set up the speakers with MCACC that pioneer uses all sounded ok except I do not have much bass coming out of the sub? I have the sub volume turned up to max with little bass coming out I know this can not be right either something wrong with setting or maybe a bad sub ( box was beat up some when I got it with some of the styraform (spelling) but the sub did not show any physical damage to it but it could have been dropped) I have the sub in bypass (low pass) and phase set to 0 as per pioneer manual...I just called pioneer up from work to see what they can tell me....I set all speakers to small like everyone here said to do...but the guy from pioneer said I will have to leave the fronts to large because there is a setting I have to change in the receiver for the sub that can only be changed when the fronts are set to large...I don't know I will have to try it when I get home if that doesn't work maybe its the sub?
Can anyone that has a pionner receiver may give me some info on this..

Have a great day everyone and thanks in advance for any help..

ciccio

I can't begin to guess what he is talking about, unless he's telling you to set the sub to "Plus" (which most experts, including Pioneer's, would consider bad advice, although sometimes it can be useful for troubleshooting). It might help if you could provide more information.

Did the sub sound okay when you ran MCACC? Was the sub turned up to max before you ran MCACC? (If it was necessary to do so, then I'd suspect damage to the sub.) Where did your AVR set the sub level after running MCACC? You might want to run through the Manual MCACC test signals to verify that the sub is getting the proper signal from the internal tone generator.

Is the sub's Auto On functioning correctly? Some require more input voltage to trigger than others. If you are not sure, try it in the full On position. You might want to double check the LFE connections to see that they are tight and in the proper input/output, too. One mistake some users have made is to connect the sub to the Multi-channel In jack rather than the Pre-Out; others have inadvertently attached it to the adjacent Front or Surround out jacks.

Check the LFE ATT (LFE Attenuate) setting in the AVR. It should be "0", not "Off" or any of the other options (-5dB, -10dB, etc.)

What kind of input (source, content, mode) are you providing when the sub seems to have "little bass coming out." Not everything has a lot of low bass, including some types of music. What is your crossover setting?

Hopefully, something here will help. Otherwise, please give us some more info and we'll see if we can make any suggestions. Good luck.
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post #635 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I can't begin to guess what he is talking about, unless he's telling you to set the sub to "Plus" (which most experts, including Pioneer's, would consider bad advice, although sometimes it can be useful for troubleshooting). It might help if you could provide more information.

Did the sub sound okay when you ran MCACC? Was the sub turned up to max before you ran MCACC? (If it was necessary to do so, then I'd suspect damage to the sub.) Where did your AVR set the sub level after running MCACC? You might want to run through the Manual MCACC test signals to verify that the sub is getting the proper signal from the internal tone generator.

Is the sub's Auto On functioning correctly? Some require more input voltage to trigger than others. If you are not sure, try it in the full On position. You might want to double check the LFE connections to see that they are tight and in the proper input/output, too. One mistake some users have made is to connect the sub to the Multi-channel In jack rather than the Pre-Out; others have inadvertently attached it to the adjacent Front or Surround out jacks.

Check the LFE ATT (LFE Attenuate) setting in the AVR. It should be "0", not "Off" or any of the other options (-5dB, -10dB, etc.)

What kind of input (source, content, mode) are you providing when the sub seems to have "little bass coming out." Not everything has a lot of low bass, including some types of music. What is your crossover setting?

Hopefully, something here will help. Otherwise, please give us some more info and we'll see if we can make any suggestions. Good luck.

I called pioneer when I got home and he did put the sub in plus
I set up to memories in mcacc 1 and 2..in 1 I changed the speakers from large to small in 2 left them all large thats where he put the sub in plus.

I had the volume on the sub in the middle when I ran auto mcacc i did hear the test tone but it was not very loud.
The crossover setting is 80
The reading I got for the sub was -3.0 on memory 2 it was the same and I changed it to 0( to see if that would help)
I have it hooked up to the pre out on the avr( I did read about that on this forum)
the distance it set the sub was 18 feet when the real distance from the sub to mic is 16 feet, I though that was ok maybe for delay? I don't know.
I never had a avr or surround system but I always thought that a sub could make walls shake maybe I was wrong..I not looking for that at all just want to make sure the sub is working fine..
The only movie I tried was harry potter on dvd will be getting a bluray player Friday.
Can you tell me how to check that LFE ATT on avr, in the meantime I will try to find it in the manual.
Do you have a movie you could recomend that has good bass that maybe I can go rent?
Please let me know if you need any other info that would help me..I just want to make sure the sub is working fine or else I could return it to vanns.
Thank you Macfan
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post #636 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 04:19 PM
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By the way Macfan my room size is about 21 feet wide by 14 feet with about another 10 behind that 14 foot where the couch is just in a small section hard to exlain it with out a picture ceiling is about 7.5 feet high hope that helps.
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post #637 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciccio250 View Post

I called pioneer when I got home and he did put the sub in plus
I set up to memories in mcacc 1 and 2..in 1 I changed the speakers from large to small in 2 left them all large thats where he put the sub in plus.

I had the volume on the sub in the middle when I ran auto mcacc i did hear the test tone but it was not very loud.

The test tone won't sound all that loud to the ear. That proves the sub is working though.
Quote:


The crossover setting is 80
The reading I got for the sub was -3.0 on memory 2 it was the same and I changed it to 0( to see if that would help)

-03 is right in the range it should be, so your sub seems to be fine. Lots of us manually bump it up by 2-3dB as you did. 80 is the best choice for crossover in most cases.
Quote:


I have it hooked up to the pre out on the avr( I did read about that on this forum)
the distance it set the sub was 18 feet when the real distance from the sub to mic is 16 feet, I though that was ok maybe for delay? I don't know.

You're right. The sub circuitry often has an extra delay, so it will read "farther" than it physically measures. It isn't really trying to measure distance, it's looking for delay. Some AVR's used to show it in miliseconds rather than feet, but that was meaningless and/or confusing to most people, so they changed it.
Quote:


I never had a avr or surround system but I always thought that a sub could make walls shake maybe I was wrong..I not looking for that at all just want to make sure the sub is working fine..

Well... yeah, that's the impression you'd get reading these forums, and it often leads to unrealistic expectations.

Actually, it shouldn't "make walls shake" unless the source calls for it. Only a handful of movies actually do (see below). Most of the time, the sub should go unnoticed, blending with the main speakers to create a solid foundation for a full range sound system.

In your case, you have a fairly large room (counting the ajacent open spaces). That calls for "more sub." However, MCACC accounts for that and I think you may be well pleased when you play a movie with demonstration quality bass.
Quote:


The only movie I tried was harry potter on dvd will be getting a bluray player Friday.
Can you tell me how to check that LFE ATT on avr, in the meantime I will try to find it in the manual.

Hit the Audio Parameters button and keep scrolling down until you see it. It can be changed with the left/right arrows on the remote. From the info supplied above, I'd guess this is already at "0"'.
Quote:


you have a movie you could recomend that has good bass that maybe I can go rent?

Harry Potter will be good, but there are a lot of others. Check this list and I'm sure you'll find something you might enjoy for other reasons as well.

My favorite for demonstrating an entire sound system is "Master & Commander" as it has wonderful surround, both subtle and loud, as well as demonstration quality bass.

Good luck and enjoy.
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post #638 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

W/ that SPL, that is definitely not linear bass, that is over hyped bass.

AJ

please explain...

chasing rattles ......

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post #639 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

You might try it Off. Shouldn't do any harm when driven by consumer gear. I'm sure its there for use under the abusive conditions that could occur in a pro application. I don't know how the EP2500's clipping limiter circuit is designed, but some of them incorporate an input attenuator which could lead to the results you are experiencing.

lol, i feel like a boob. i thought it kept the amp from clipping. not the input, as the directions say, from clipping. thanx, i WILL try that.

chasing rattles ......

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post #640 of 5596 Old 05-20-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

The test tone won't sound all that loud to the ear. That proves the sub is working though.
-03 is right in the range it should be, so your sub seems to be fine. Lots of us manually bump it up by 2-3dB as you did. 80 is the best choice for crossover in most cases.
You're right. The sub circuitry often has an extra delay, so it will read "farther" than it physically measures. It isn't really trying to measure distance, it's looking for delay. Some AVR's used to show it in miliseconds rather than feet, but that was meaningless and/or confusing to most people, so they changed it.
Well... yeah, that's the impression you'd get reading these forums, and it often leads to unrealistic expectations.

Actually, it shouldn't "make walls shake" unless the source calls for it. Only a handful of movies actually do (see below). Most of the time, the sub should go unnoticed, blending with the main speakers to create a solid foundation for a full range sound system.

In your case, you have a fairly large room (counting the ajacent open spaces). That calls for "more sub." However, MCACC accounts for that and I think you may be well pleased when you play a movie with demonstration quality bass.
Hit the Audio Parameters button and keep scrolling down until you see it. It can be changed with the left/right arrows on the remote. From the info supplied above, I'd guess this is already at "0"'.
Harry Potter will be good, but there are a lot of others. Check this list and I'm sure you'll find something you might enjoy for other reasons as well.

My favorite for demonstrating an entire sound system is "Master & Commander" as it has wonderful surround, both subtle and loud, as well as demonstration quality bass.

Good luck and enjoy.

Thank you very much Macfan so I guess all is good with the sub...I just checked that LFE setting and it is at 0..I will check out your list, thanks again for your time and help!!!!

ciccio
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post #641 of 5596 Old 05-22-2009, 03:24 PM
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I have the 01 elite receiver. I am having the same sub problem as macfan described. I posted in the receiver section as i just found this thread i read his post and his problem is word for word my problem. I have my avr setting on speakers -small sub-yes

I get nothing plugging my rca plug into the subwoofer output jack but i get bass when i use the jacks to the left or right of the sub out jack. Yes it is SUB OUTPUT NOT INPUT.

I have 2 subs, I have a y rca adapter coming out of the jack beside the the sub output ( to the left looking at the receiver straight on from the back)

Even connecting only 1 sub i get the same results.
I have tried connecting one sub straight to the sub output jack speakers set to small / large, yes plus and absolutely nothing. No sub output at all from the one sub or 2 subs.

What weird is i get sub output with the current setup which is the y adapter pluged into the front output rca jack ( the one beside the sub output
jack )

I will contact Pioneer as idon't think this seems the normal way to set up your sub ( s )

THX*.
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post #642 of 5596 Old 05-22-2009, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie_Buff View Post

...I will contact Pioneer as idon't think this seems the normal way to set up your sub ( s )...

Sure isn't!

Does this happen with the MCACC test tones, too?

It'll be interesting to hear what Pioneer has to say (although their level one techs have been known to offer some pretty questionable solutions ).
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post #643 of 5596 Old 05-22-2009, 07:07 PM
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I get nothing from the test tones. No matter what configuration i tried i cannot get any sound from the sub or subs .

The funny thing is i bought this receiver back ,in Dec and i never really took notice of this until i started reading the forums this past week. I only use the receiver maybe once a week for a movie.

I'll call pioneer on Monday. It seems that something may have been soldered criss-crossed on the back inputs or outputs on the board inside.

Cheers!!!
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post #644 of 5596 Old 05-23-2009, 08:41 AM
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Anything is possible, but it seems more likely you just have a defective sub output. With the mains set to Large, you'd get a full range of low frequencies out of the main pre-outs. Even if they are set to small, you'd get some bass as the crossover is not a brick wall and most subs will produce output well into the upper bass (above the crossover). I'd think that MCACC would detect that, though, and indicate there is no sub connected.

If you feel like experimenting, you might try using both the R and L front outs without the "Y" connector to see if both subs work that way. If they do, you could try setting the mains to Large and using the low pass filter on the sub to blend them with your mains. Not a very desirable approach, but a workaround if you don't want to bother with having the AVR serviced.
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post #645 of 5596 Old 05-23-2009, 09:14 PM
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The last couple of days I have been listening with the "all channels adjust" EQ mode instead of my "front align" which I have really grown acustom too. Anyway, "all channels adjust" is really growing on me now with movies and music. My wife really likes it!
I guess I was just used to the bright detailed sound of my speakers. Now I am appreciating detailed "flat" sound
Anyway, MCACC is a great EQ technology!




Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100, Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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post #646 of 5596 Old 05-24-2009, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie_Buff View Post

I get nothing from the test tones. No matter what configuration i tried i cannot get any sound from the sub or subs .

The funny thing is i bought this receiver back ,in Dec and i never really took notice of this until i started reading the forums this past week. I only use the receiver maybe once a week for a movie.

I'll call pioneer on Monday. It seems that something may have been soldered criss-crossed on the back inputs or outputs on the board inside.

Cheers!!!

You can try hooking a left front speaker to the SUB pre-out to and try a test tone, this won't hurt the speaker. If you get a response, the subs or its connection is a problem. If not the sub or the connection setup is having issues. Just a couple more elimination - diagnosis steps.

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints.
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post #647 of 5596 Old 05-24-2009, 09:05 AM
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To ciccio250,

My MCACC setup on my Pioneer SC-05 was similar. Everything sounded great but there wasn't much bass from my sub. I did MCACC a 2nd time, this time moving the microphone to a different location (had to tape it on top of a long stick and then use couch cushions to hold it in place in the listening position).

My sub only has a volume dial on the back that has 10 tickmarks with 1/2 steps in between. I started with it at about 7 1/2 and the MCACC kept telling me to lower sub volume. Did that a few times and got it down to 5 I think to make it accept. When it was done it had my sub at -8.5db at 13 feet. I lowered that to 10 manually becuase that's what it is (I may change it back). Anyway -8.5db was still not enough bass for my taste, especially at lower volume levels so I had to change it in the receiver to about -5.5db to -6.5db (still adjusting and experimenting since I just got the receiver 3 days ago).

I will keep the volume dial on the sub just where it is and make any adjustments in the receiver. Just play with the adjustments in the receiver to get the bass where you like it. I would also recommend using not just movies to adjust sound but also stereo music CDs. Obviously you want to use the music you like best and get it to sound where you like it but metal bands like Pantera have great, rhythm heavy, driving bass that can be helpful in adjusting things. This is just my opinion and experience, but hopefully whatever you try works well for you.

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post #648 of 5596 Old 05-24-2009, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esswun View Post

... it had my sub... at 13 feet. I lowered that to 10 manually becuase that's what it is (I may change it back)...

MCACC doesn't really measure distance, per se, it measures delay time. Early on, some AVR's showed the delay in milliseconds, but consumers had a hard time with that (especially when making manual adjustments) so the industry has pretty much converted to translating the information into feet and inches (in U.S. models).

Anyway, it the case of subs, the associated circuity often introduces an added delay, and MCACC compensates by adding "distance." It's normal, and probably more accurate for its purpose than your tape measure.
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post #649 of 5596 Old 05-24-2009, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esswun View Post

To ciccio250,

My MCACC setup on my Pioneer SC-05 was similar. Everything sounded great but there wasn't much bass from my sub. I did MCACC a 2nd time, this time moving the microphone to a different location (had to tape it on top of a long stick and then use couch cushions to hold it in place in the listening position).

My sub only has a volume dial on the back that has 10 tickmarks with 1/2 steps in between. I started with it at about 7 1/2 and the MCACC kept telling me to lower sub volume. Did that a few times and got it down to 5 I think to make it accept. When it was done it had my sub at -8.5db at 13 feet. I lowered that to 10 manually becuase that's what it is (I may change it back). Anyway -8.5db was still not enough bass for my taste, especially at lower volume levels so I had to change it in the receiver to about -5.5db to -6.5db (still adjusting and experimenting since I just got the receiver 3 days ago).

I will keep the volume dial on the sub just where it is and make any adjustments in the receiver. Just play with the adjustments in the receiver to get the bass where you like it. I would also recommend using not just movies to adjust sound but also stereo music CDs. Obviously you want to use the music you like best and get it to sound where you like it but metal bands like Pantera have great, rhythm heavy, driving bass that can be helpful in adjusting things. This is just my opinion and experience, but hopefully whatever you try works well for you.

Are your speakers set as "small"?

Bill
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post #650 of 5596 Old 05-25-2009, 11:55 AM
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I'm still getting too much bass sometimes and noticed that when I turn the volume knob on my sub to zero, it still produces a lot of bass. Any suggestions?

Some settings I can think of:
4a2. Front = Large
4a2. SW = Plus
4a2. X.Over = 150Hz (still get bass at volume = 0 at any x.over setting)
4a3. Front Channel Level = -3
4a3. SW Channel Level = 0
4a6. Loudness Plus = ON
4a6. THX Ultra2 SW = NO
4d1. SW Input Gain = 0dB
Full Band Phase Control = ON

Sub X.Over = Bypass
Sub Trim = Flat
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post #651 of 5596 Old 05-25-2009, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabricator View Post

Behringer ep2500 people.

i have a new 01. i have heard that they don't put out enough line level power from the sub out, to get full power out of the sub amp. anyone find this ?

when i run MCACC. it sets the subs at -2 (ep2500 volumn maxed). i find this too low, and i max it out, +10. thinking that i need to get as much sub output signal as possible.

does anyone know about this ?

i searched, but may have missed the info.

thanx

The EP2500 needs an input voltage of 1.4v to put out full power. You need to put a Samson s-convert line level adjuster inline between your rec and sub amp. It will raise the input voltage and you will get full power out of the amp. I had the same problem and it made a huge difference once I did this.http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SConvert/
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post #652 of 5596 Old 05-25-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esswun View Post

To ciccio250,

My MCACC setup on my Pioneer SC-05 was similar. Everything sounded great but there wasn't much bass from my sub. I did MCACC a 2nd time, this time moving the microphone to a different location (had to tape it on top of a long stick and then use couch cushions to hold it in place in the listening position).

My sub only has a volume dial on the back that has 10 tickmarks with 1/2 steps in between. I started with it at about 7 1/2 and the MCACC kept telling me to lower sub volume. Did that a few times and got it down to 5 I think to make it accept. When it was done it had my sub at -8.5db at 13 feet. I lowered that to 10 manually becuase that's what it is (I may change it back). Anyway -8.5db was still not enough bass for my taste, especially at lower volume levels so I had to change it in the receiver to about -5.5db to -6.5db (still adjusting and experimenting since I just got the receiver 3 days ago).

I will keep the volume dial on the sub just where it is and make any adjustments in the receiver. Just play with the adjustments in the receiver to get the bass where you like it. I would also recommend using not just movies to adjust sound but also stereo music CDs. Obviously you want to use the music you like best and get it to sound where you like it but metal bands like Pantera have great, rhythm heavy, driving bass that can be helpful in adjusting things. This is just my opinion and experience, but hopefully whatever you try works well for you.

Thank you, but all is good with the sub now, I think it was the source I was playing, I tried some music and the bass is there with the knob in the middle of the sub, also played some movies with good surround and the bass is just fine very happy with the sub (mirage prestige S10) along with the pioneer 03 receiver, still alot to learn about the receiver but I am very happy right now..

Thanks again for all your help!!!!

ciccio
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post #653 of 5596 Old 05-27-2009, 07:43 PM
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The EP2500 needs an input voltage of 1.4v to put out full power. You need to put a Samson s-convert line level adjuster inline between your rec and sub amp. It will raise the input voltage and you will get full power out of the amp. I had the same problem and it made a huge difference once I did this.http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SConvert/

ok. so , what you are saying is = the 01 doesn't have 1.4v, even at +10 ?

last night i ordered a DCX2496.

chasing rattles ......

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post #654 of 5596 Old 05-28-2009, 08:43 AM
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Can anyone tell me how to use a spl meter with the 03 receiver? would I use the test tones from the receiver and what should be the setting, or can someone just post the link and I will try to follow, I am borrowing a meter from work and will like to use it this weekend..I did a google search and read many diffrent things, so if anyone can help me thanks in advance, MACFAN thanks for your help with my sub, maybe you can chime in on this?

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post #655 of 5596 Old 05-28-2009, 08:50 AM
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Thank You
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post #657 of 5596 Old 05-29-2009, 01:39 PM
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ok. so , what you are saying is = the 01 doesn't have 1.4v, even at +10 ?

last night i ordered a DCX2496.

Yes that's right. The DCX will do it for you and you will be a happy camper.....
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post #658 of 5596 Old 05-29-2009, 01:44 PM
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I hope this hasn't been asked and if so I apologise. Do you guy's with multiple subs run them all when auto calibrating or do you just run one and then integrate the others by ear or SPL meter?
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post #659 of 5596 Old 05-29-2009, 04:15 PM
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Are your speakers set as "small"?

Bill

Yes, set to small, and the speakers are, in fact small. From what I understand, setting the speakers as small causes the LFE to go to the sub, for small speakers don't really put out real bass, neccessitating the need for a sub, do I have this right? Even as small it set the sub really low.

Now I have it at -4.0db now and it sounds punchy where I expect it and resonates smoothly where I expect it as well. However, it is an 8" and it will never compare to a 10" or 12" (which I hope to get when I get new speakers down the line).

Also, anyone know why movies (BD and DVD) are so much quieter than CDs, PS3 games and TV? It still sounds GOOD, but I have to turn it up way louder to equal the volume. A reasonable volume on my CDs, games and TV is about -23 to -28. Movies I have had to crank up to like -10, -08 or so depending on the disc.

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post #660 of 5596 Old 05-30-2009, 02:36 PM
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I hope this hasn't been asked and if so I apologise. Do you guy's with multiple subs run them all when auto calibrating or do you just run one and then integrate the others by ear or SPL meter?

I balance and integrate my subs with each other before running MCACC, at which point they are all on.
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