"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hoffman View Post

Paying extra for a floor stander that goes down low would be a waste..

this is not true and a matter of opinion. My floors 3db cutoff is 30hz.
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post #62 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

LoL. You didn't get it. You can set your speaker to large, xtra large or whatever. But if you use THX, it will automatically turn it into small with 80Hz crossover. That's the definition of THX.


I don't think you own a vsx-82. When watching DD content, I switch from DD to "THX Cinema", go into the setup and my speakers are still set to large.

Now, If I run MCACC initially and choose THX, of course it runs them at small.


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post #63 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

I don't think you own a vsx-82. When watching DD content, I switch from DD to "THX Cinema", go into the setup and my speakers are still set to large.

Now, If I run MCACC initially and choose THX, of course it runs them at small.


bob

I own a VSX-92. You will not see speaker settings change in the setup. It's invoked on the fly whenever any THX processing is used. It will automatically revert back to your normal speaker settings when you're not using THX processing.

Did you notice in the speaker setup, there is a THX crossover frequency of 80Hz and you can't change it?

THX processing mandates all speakers being crossed over at 80Hz, including front mains. Actually having full-range main speakers is not a good thing for THX because THX expects all speakers (THX certified) have the same drop off slop below 80Hz so that you can get idea responses from all speakers across the frequency range.

More details about THX can be found in this article: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html
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post #64 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 08:10 AM
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[QUOTE

Did you notice in the speaker setup, there is a THX crossover frequency of 80Hz and you can't change it?

part-1.html[/url][/quote]


Actually, I can

I just changed it to 50 w/ thx cinema applied, all speakers small!


bob
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post #65 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Actually, I can

I just changed it to 50 w/ thx cinema applied, all speakers small!


bob

Actually that's the difference between your VSX-82 and the newer models. On your VSX-82, please read the owner manual page 44, foot note 4:
Quote:


If you're using a THX speaker setup, confirm that cross over feequency is set to 80Hz

And also on the speaker setup screen, it shows (THX: all small).

On my 92, the speaker setup screen displays a THX cross over of 80Hz (not changeable).

Please read the article I linked in previous post on how THX works.
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post #66 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 09:29 AM
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After running Auto MCACC on my VSX-03TXH I changed my speaker setup to small do I have to rerun MCACC again to calibrate my system being speakers are now set to small. Does it matter? How to you save the settings once speakers are set to small?

Joe V.
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post #67 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 10:27 AM
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I would re-run it using the instructions posted in post #27 on 1st page of this thread (to keep your speaker settings).
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post #68 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwv651 View Post

After running Auto MCACC on my VSX-03TXH I changed my speaker setup to small do I have to rerun MCACC again to calibrate my system being speakers are now set to small. Does it matter? How to you save the settings once speakers are set to small?

When you go to auto MCACC at the bottom where it says "start", highlight it and then scroll to the right. It should let you choose custom, from the custom menu you have several options.


BTW, anyone have any suggestions on how to run the multi-point EQ? I know how to access it on the menu, but in terms of mic placement anybody have any suggestions?


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post #69 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hoffman View Post

I would love to have a Pioneer tech, who really understands MCACC, answer this.
If that's the case, why bother having floor standing fronts that will go down lower than say 40HZ, in a surround system that includes a sub? If all speakers should be small and the x-over set at 80Hz (that's the most recommended level), a good speaker that goes to 60Hz or so would be all anyone really should use. Paying extra for a floor stander that goes down low would be a waste..

This has already been answered by Foxbat121. I'll just add that it is not an MCACC issue, it's a basic bass management issue, and applies to all AVRs, not just Pioneers.

As for whether it's worth buying a speaker that goes below 60Hz, that question is heavily debated in various speaker and subwoofer threads.

I'd say in a pure HT context, maybe not. But since many (most?) people set their subs "hot", a well designed full range speaker will often give greater fidelity to stereo music. But those are just my opinions and there is lots of disagreement on the subject.

(FWIW, my mains are DefTech Mythos STS's, with an internal woofer amp, measured -3dB at 28Hz. I set them at Large for music, but use THX Select 2 Cinema for movies and TV.)
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post #70 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJ25 View Post

MCACC is still applied when Direct mode is chosen, right? If not then what else does direct mode disable?

Yes it is. This should be indicated on the receiver - at least it is on my VSX-91TXH. The MCACC symbol is lit up on direct (and pure direct for that matter).

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post #71 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJ25 View Post

When you go to auto MCACC at the bottom where it says "start", highlight it and then scroll to the right. It should let you choose custom, from the custom menu you have several options.


BTW, anyone have any suggestions on how to run the multi-point EQ? I know how to access it on the menu, but in terms of mic placement anybody have any suggestions?

I thought multi point was only for standing wave?

Don't waste time reading signatures.....
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post #72 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJ25 View Post


BTW, anyone have any suggestions on how to run the multi-point EQ? I know how to access it on the menu, but in terms of mic placement anybody have any suggestions?


I used the three (3) most used seating positions. I also went so far as to put the mic on top of the headrest of the chairs to best simulate where our ears would be!!
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post #73 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjardine View Post

I used the three (3) most used seating positions. I also went so far as to put the mic on top of the headrest of the chairs to best simulate where our ears would be!!

I did the same, but used a tripod to hold the mic.
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post #74 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I did the same, but used a tripod to hold the mic.

Ditto.

Setting it on the headrest won't really be accurate as, in most cases, your ears are actually in front of the headrest.


I don't even remember seeing the option for multi-point on my 03TXH. It has that feature too?

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post #75 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

this is not true and a matter of opinion. My floors 3db cutoff is 30hz.

I was just referring to front speakers in a surround sound environment, where there is a sub and all other speakers are set to small, with 80Hz as the crossover point. This is the THX default, as has been pointed out. In fact, I've heard that this is the preferred way to set up a surround environment for some years now. Unless you are using your fronts only for stereo music listening, having a tower speaker that goes fairly deep therefore is unnecessary. You can also use the sub with your front speakers for music as well. If it's a good fit, a good sub with a good set of small speakers can sound just fine with music. Now, if you are setting up a stereo music system, and don't want a sub for anything higher than 30 Hz or so, you will need a floor standing system with either no sub at all, or a sub for only the lowest of organ pedal notes etc.
I don't have the luxury of being able to set up a home theater and a separate stereo for music in another room. I'm using my Mirage Frx-9's with integrated powered subs as my front pair. Since they have integrated amps for the subs, it thought I'd use them in conjunction with my separate sub. I have them set to large and the sub set to plus.
I ran MCACC with them set that way and the system sounds good to my ears.
I've tried changing the speakers to small, which changes the sub setting to yes, but decided to leave my fronts as large. I guess what I should do is change the fronts to small and then re-run the multi point set up and see how the system sounds. I may like it better. But, if I leave the set up the way it is, just because the THX spec is all small with 80Hz crossover, is my setup wrong? Will a discerning ear find it inaccurate?
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post #76 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Yes it is. This should be indicated on the receiver - at least it is on my VSX-91TXH. The MCACC symbol is lit up on direct (and pure direct for that matter).

Hm, I thought Pure Direct didn't use MCACC and bypassed all tone controls fo any kind.
My system sure sounds different when I switch to Pure Direct. Very different.
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post #77 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Ditto.

Setting it on the headrest won't really be accurate as, in most cases, your ears are actually in front of the headrest.


I don't even remember seeing the option for multi-point on my 03TXH. It has that feature too?

Using a tripod will definitely help MCACC be more accurate. The first time I ran MCACC I set the mic on top of the headrest, results were OK. Re-running MCACC with mic set on a tripod yielded much better results. Now this is where I need help, according to the manual. Multi-point MCACC will yield better results and give you better freq. response for the room. Like I said that's what my manual says. So what I did was measure from two other spots in my room and then my listening position. I don't know if that's correct or not. I have posted a layout of the room and the positions I used. Anybody have any suggestions?

[IMG][/IMG]


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post #78 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 09:34 PM
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Is anyone here an expert on this?

I'm still trying to find out how to use/apply this to my vsx-59txi.

My vsx-82 does it automatically when running the auto (all) setup.

It looks like the 59 needs it done after but then what?

thx

bob
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post #79 of 5548 Old 01-26-2009, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

Pioneer has downloadable "MCACC Software Manuals" that give more information. For the time period (time delay), there is a complete section on that subject ("Deciding the time period for Advanced EQ Setup calibration") on page 19 in both manuals I looked over (2 pages).

The manuals can be found on this page: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eivers.Default

Lexicon, probably a good idea to include that link in the first post.

Dan.

Done per your request on 1/26/09
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post #80 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 04:50 AM
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OK....This is what I know feel I know about the proper work flow to get the most out of MCAAC after reading the receiver manual and the Advanvced MCAAC manual. This is also the work flow I plan to use this weekend when the wife gives me a few hours alone in the house.

Work Flow:

1) Set Reciever to MCAAC preset 1 (M1). Now Run Auto MCAAC with mic in you listening position (I taped the mic to the top of a two foot long shoe horn, and stuck the shoe horn inbetween the couch cushions, so the mic is right where my ears are during listening).

2) Go into Manual Sp Setup and change the SP settings if neccessary(crossover to 100hz for me and speakers to small)

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings.

4) Now you have an Auto MCAAC calibration saved to M1 (....note: you must select which preset you want Auto MCAAC to save calibration data to before you enter the audio setup menu.) Now go into Data Management--------> Data Copy and copy M1's data to M2 and also to M3. Now you have carbon copies of this calibration in M1-M3.

5) Now go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb Measurement and get a reading on the the frequency response characteristics of your room. Be sure to select EQ OFF(standing waves not controlled for via MCAAC fliters) in the Reverb Measurement menu because you don't want the standing wave adjustements (EQ on) to be factored in to the room reverb measurments. Also make sure you haven't moved the mic.

6) After test tones are done, go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb View , and you can analyze the frequency response of individual channels at various frequencies. Based upon that data, you would select the appropriate capture delay time for MCAAC to capture data during for the upcoming EQ calibration.

Change that time frame under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to whatever you decide is the appropriate capture delay time ....(Pioneer recommends 30-50 ms, but they encourage you to analyze the data under reverb view first and refer to the advanced MCAAc software manual for analysis purposes). Note: the default capture delay time is than 80-160 ms.

7) Change to MCAAC preset 2 (M2) before you run the new advanced EQ calibration with the new capture time. Go under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to start the advanced EQ calibration, and MCAAC should make a more accurate calibration since it will now capture sonic information sooner after the speakers output sound, and get a read on what the frequency response is of the speakers themselves, and not the speakers and all the reverb which accumulates as time passes. (Default capture time is 80-160 ms and thus collects more reverb and less true speaker reading)

Now you should have an accurate calibration. Also, now you can easily compare the Auto MCAAC EQ effects that are stored in M1 with the advanced EQ effects in M2 while listening to content with a simple button press on the remote. You could also juice the base a few db in M3, and also compare running the base a bit hot to a flat calibration that you have in M1 and M2.

Advanced MCAAC Manual (especially read pages 18-20)

VSX-1018 owners manual (especially read pages 38-50)

If I am wrong about something (which is possible), let me know. I did this so that folks looking to get the most out of their equipment could better do that. The whole Auto MCAAC thing can be a bit confusing, so maybe you can benefit from my research and tinkering.
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post #81 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 06:01 AM
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if you run the auto mcacc on my 91, it runs the eq too.
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post #82 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

if you run the auto mcacc on my 91, it runs the eq too.

yes, but at 80-160 ms

bob
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post #83 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

OK....This is what I know feel I know about the proper work flow to get the most out of MCAAC after reading the receiver manual and the Advanvced MCAAC manual. This is also the work flow I plan to use this weekend when the wife gives me a few hours alone in the house.

Work Flow:

1) Set Reciever to MCAAC preset 1 (M1). Now Run Auto MCAAC with mic in you listening position (I taped the mic to the top of a two foot long shoe horn, and stuck the shoe horn inbetween the couch cushions, so the mic is right where my ears are during listening).

2) Go into Manual Sp Setup and change the SP settings if neccessary(crossover to 100hz for me and speakers to small)

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings.

4) Now you have an Auto MCAAC calibration saved to M1 (....note: you must select which preset you want Auto MCAAC to save calibration data to before you enter the audio setup menu.) Now go into Data Management--------> Data Copy and copy M1's data to M2 and also to M3. Now you have carbon copies of this calibration in M1-M3.

5) Now go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb Measurement and get a reading on the the frequency response characteristics of your room. Be sure to select EQ OFF(standing waves not controlled for via MCAAC fliters) in the Reverb Measurement menu because you don't want the standing wave adjustements (EQ on) to be factored in to the room reverb measurments. Also make sure you haven't moved the mic.

6) After test tones are done, go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb View , and you can analyze the frequency response of individual channels at various frequencies. Based upon that data, you would select the appropriate capture delay time for MCAAC to capture data during for the upcoming EQ calibration.

Change that time frame under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to whatever you decide is the appropriate capture delay time ....(Pioneer recommends 30-50 ms, but they encourage you to analyze the data under reverb view first and refer to the advanced MCAAc software manual for analysis purposes). Note: the default capture delay time is than 80-160 ms.

7) Change to MCAAC preset 2 (M2) before you run the new advanced EQ calibration with the new capture time. Go under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to start the advanced EQ calibration, and MCAAC should make a more accurate calibration since it will now capture sonic information sooner after the speakers output sound, and get a read on what the frequency response is of the speakers themselves, and not the speakers and all the reverb which accumulates as time passes. (Default capture time is 80-160 ms and thus collects more reverb and less true speaker reading)

Now you should have an accurate calibration. Also, now you can easily compare the Auto MCAAC EQ effects that are stored in M1 with the advanced EQ effects in M2 while listening to content with a simple button press on the remote. You could also juice the base a few db in M3, and also compare running the base a bit hot to a flat calibration that you have in M1 and M2.

Advanced MCAAC Manual (especially read pages 18-20)

VSX-1018 owners manual (especially read pages 38-50)



If I am wrong about something (which is possible), let me know. I did this so that folks looking to get the most out of their equipment could better do that. The whole Auto MCAAC thing can be a bit confusing, so maybe you can benefit from my research and tinkering.

Thanks!

I just hope this sequence applies to my (older) vsx-59txi)?

thx

bob
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post #84 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

yes, but at 80-160 ms

bob

so why cant i just go in and set the timing, speaker distances, speaker settings to small 80hz, and speaker levels with spl and then run the auto with keep speakers settings?

also are you saying use the 30-50ms setting?
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post #85 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

so why cant i just go in and set the timing, speaker distances, speaker settings to small 80hz, and speaker levels with spl and then run the auto with keep speakers settings?

also are you saying use the 30-50ms setting?

Or 20-40, depending on the results that you got from reverb measurement.

My problem is that on the 59, there is no option to take measurements with "eq off" so I don't know if it does or not!


bob
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post #86 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Or 20-40, depending on the results that you got from reverb measurement.

My problem is that on the 59, there is no option to take measurements with "eq off" so I don't know if it does or not!


bob

Are you sure? See my work flow above and see if applies to you.
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post #87 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 08:22 AM
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Multi point measurements are just for getting a better sound for the three seating positions, but I think you will not be as accurate at any one of those seats as you would be with calibration using just one mic position.
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post #88 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 08:24 AM
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THX cinema is a proprietary sound processing mode, and is not the same as setting your speakers as THX certified speakers in the audio setup. THX cienema processing will not change your speaker settings as far as I know.
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post #89 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 08:29 AM
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how exactly will i know which timing to use?
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post #90 of 5548 Old 01-27-2009, 08:35 AM
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thinking of getting pioneer. but have onkyo 605 which just gets too hot for me. onkyo uses audessey. if i am using 80 as crossover for the fronts and surround, i am confused with what to use for the lfe. in the onkyo the lfe frequency only goes as low as 80 i think
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