"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 5542 Old 01-21-2010, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I'm using an SC-27, and I'm quite pleased with the MCACC results, except for the eq. I turn off the eq. It makes my speakers sound "thin". I didn't like the eq settings for Audyssey, either.

What kind of speakers do you have?

Love my Pioneer Elite.
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post #992 of 5542 Old 01-21-2010, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Deeselcyde View Post

What kind of speakers do you have?

He said "My speakers are Aperions...2 633T's in the front, my center is a 634vac and my rears are 2 533T's. My sub is a MFW-15."

Bill
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post #993 of 5542 Old 01-21-2010, 10:40 PM
 
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No, Jarablue said that, not sb1...the one he quoted.
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post #994 of 5542 Old 01-22-2010, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

He said "My speakers are Aperions...2 633T's in the front, my center is a 634vac and my rears are 2 533T's. My sub is a MFW-15."

Bill

No, he didn't.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #995 of 5542 Old 01-22-2010, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

No, Jarablue said that, not sb1...the one he quoted.

My bad!

Bill
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post #996 of 5542 Old 01-22-2010, 09:31 AM
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Sub-woofer Calibration on Pioneer SC07 :


After setting the Subwoofer gain exactly at halfway mark on the dial I ran my Auto MCACC, after the calibration was completed - my receiver OSD displayed -7.5db for my subwoofer and my SPL read 46dB on test tone. my speakers were set around -2.0 db for fronts and -5.0db for rears and test tone produced 78db.

I tried raising the -7.5db to 0.0db on SPL it went from 46dB to 55dB. Does that mean my Subwoofer placement might not be ideal? Should the test tone for Subwoofer also produce 78 dB - What should be i using A-weighting or C-weighting for measurement
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post #997 of 5542 Old 01-22-2010, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemanu View Post

Sub-woofer Calibration on Pioneer SC07 :


After setting the Subwoofer gain exactly at halfway mark on the dial I ran my Auto MCACC, after the calibration was completed - my receiver OSD displayed -7.5db for my subwoofer and my SPL read 46dB on test tone. my speakers were set around -2.0 db for fronts and -5.0db for rears and test tone produced 78db.

I tried raising the -7.5db to 0.0db on SPL it went from 46dB to 55dB. Does that mean my Subwoofer placement might not be ideal? Should the test tone for Subwoofer also produce 78 dB - What should be i using A-weighting or C-weighting for measurement

MCACC has a reputation of doing a less than desirable job when it comes to the subwoofer.Often the level and distance for the sub are off. You may want to go into your manual settings and set the sub at 0db on the receiver (if more is needed I would not go above +3db) and adjust the distance manually based on your measurement. I would further check your sub settings if you have the ability to adjust it and make sure it is set correctly.

When I used MCACC , my sub was set a -12db and the distance was off by more than 10 feet. The MCACC was pretty accurate for distance and levels for the other speakers.

I personally discarded MCACC and set my speakers up manually using an SPL meter. In my case MCACC really had a negative effect on my speakers. The speaker manufacture recommended manual setup with no MCACC, speakers sound amazing. This may not be the case for you, just my experience.
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post #998 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 03:52 AM
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thanks for your post, i just replaced my NHT speakers in front with Aperions. 2 6t towers, 6c center, 10d sub. i was going to tweak my mcacc this weekend but i think i will do it manually. i read many of the posts as well. my avr is a pio 82tsx and the mcacc is confusing and too layered for me to really understand. do you have any suggestions on the manual set up? also each day i play them they sound better, ?break in or placebo effect??thanks in advance, regards
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post #999 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

^^^^ One thing to keep in mind with Pioneer AVR's: If you lower the crossover to 50Hz, you will lose LFE between 50 and 80Hz. (Technically, LFE extends to 120Hz, but most producers roll of the LFE bass above 80Hz, which is one reason THX chose it as their standard. 80Hz has since become the de facto standard for the industry in general.) LFE is not transferred to the main speakers when a sub is available, so lowering the crossover means only the portion of LFE below the crossover point is reproduced.

This effect is not always apparent, though, because it is common practice to include the same lows in the front channels (sometimes more), which masks the effect. However, the main channel lows are meant to be mixed with the LFE, and if the sub is not doing its share, they will lack the punch the producer intended.

Also, turn OFF the THX speaker settings in MCACC unless you have THX certified speakers. These settings affect the crossover slope, as they assume speaker rolloff patterns that non-THX speakers are unlikely to duplicate.

I think technically you're right about that, but the large speakers should get full range. To clarify, you are referring to the smalls?

What I've noticed is, for movies, 80hz sounds better - as they purposely only create range specific content for the particular speakers.

However for traditional stereo CD's and such that you're are running in either Auto, or one of the DB Music posts, the surrounds sound much better at 50hz. I have a pool table in the back of my theater area, so you become closer to the rear surrounds and at 80hz, the sound out of those speakers becomes clipped for lack of better words. Essentially it sounds like a loose speaker wire as the music that's clipping the crossover is being omitted - rather abruptly. At 50hz, I don't notice it near as much. Naturally, when I go all large, it doesn' happen at all. Too bad you cannot change speaker sizes and cross-vers with the MCACC presets. That would be the hot ticket. Any friendly hackers around?
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post #1000 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

^^^^ One thing to keep in mind with Pioneer AVR's: If you lower the crossover to 50Hz, you will lose LFE between 50 and 80Hz.

Seriously??? I didn't know this. So if I have my speakers set to small and crossover at 60hz, I won't get any lfe between 60-80hz reproduced on my system?
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post #1001 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmagloo View Post

I think technically you're right about that, but the large speakers should get full range. To clarify, you are referring to the smalls?...

LFE is not synonymous with subwoofer. It's an independent channel. Both the main and LFE channels have low bass. In some cases it's the same; in others it's different. That's at the discretion of the producer.

Main channel bass will be directed to Large speakers, but not to the LFE channel (unless "Plus" is engaged). It will be redirected to the sub if the main channel speakers are Small.

LFE goes only to the subwoofer, never to the main channels (except when there is no sub). So LFE bass is simply attenuated above the crossover. It is not redirected to the mains, even if they are Large.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro J View Post

Seriously??? I didn't know this. So if I have my speakers set to small and crossover at 60hz, I won't get any lfe between 60-80hz reproduced on my system?

That's correct. As discussed above, that doesn't mean no bass in that range, just no LFE bass.
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post #1002 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

LFE is not synonymous with subwoofer. It's an independent channel. Both the main and LFE channels have low bass. In some cases it's the same; in others it's different. That's at the discretion of the producer.

Main channel bass will be directed to Large speakers, but not to the LFE channel (unless "Plus" is engaged). It will be redirected to the sub if the main channel speakers are Small.

LFE goes only to the subwoofer, never to the main channels (except when there is no sub). So LFE bass is simply attenuated above the crossover. It is not redirected to the mains, even if they are Large.


That's correct. As discussed above, that doesn't mean no bass in that range, just no LFE bass.

I'm not an expert but this makes no sense to me: if as you say LFE is a channel by itself and its signal is sent ONLY to the sub, the crossover setting shouldn't matter at all, as it's supposed to send the frequencies below set point of the main and/or surround channels to the sub.
As far as I understand the crossover settings are intended to correct the lack of bass in most speakers, therefore should not affect or clip a channel that is only intended for low frequencies.
This is only using my logic. Maybe you guys know better.
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post #1003 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renpar61 View Post

I'm not an expert but this makes no sense to me: if as you say LFE is a channel by itself and its signal is sent ONLY to the sub, the crossover setting shouldn't matter at all, as it's supposed to send the frequencies below set point of the main and/or surround channels to the sub.
As far as I understand the crossover settings are intended to correct the lack of bass in most speakers, therefore should not affect or clip a channel that is only intended for low frequencies.
This is only using my logic. Maybe you guys know better.

Here's essentially how it works:

For Small mains, all frequencies above the crossover are high passed to their original channels. (Large mains receive full range signals, whether the speakers can handle them or not.)

For the subwoofer, the full range signal from Small mains is sent to the sub channel. This is mixed with the LFE, then the combined signal is low passed (below the crossover) and sent to the sub. This method is used to avoid inherent frequency response aberrations due to phase issues that would otherwise result.
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post #1004 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Here's essentially how it works:

For Small mains, all frequencies above the crossover are high passed to their original channels. (Large mains receive full range signals, whether the speakers can handle them or not.)

For the subwoofer, the full range signal from Small mains is sent to the sub channel. This is mixed with the LFE, then the combined signal is low passed (below the crossover) and sent to the sub. This method is used to avoid inherent frequency response aberrations due to phase issues that would otherwise result.

Thanks for the clarification. Is this true for all processors/receivers? It sounds like a hell of a compromise.
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post #1005 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renpar61 View Post

Thanks for the clarification. Is this true for all processors/receivers? It sounds like a hell of a compromise.

Well, like most compromises, it is an acceptance of the lesser evil.

Some processors let you select different crossovers for the sub and the mains, but there are experts who argue that is an even worse compromise, at least in the context of consumer gear where the end user does not have enough knowledge nor access to sophisticated testing equipment to make proper adjustments. Secrets published an article some time ago discussing the rationale behind this point of view (which seems to be endorsed by Pioneer).

In equipment reviews, the authors have been known to criticize some AVR manufacturers for pandering to their marketing departments by including multiple crossovers (they sound like a good idea to consumers), rather than the less flexible but sonically cleaner approach Pioneer (among others) uses.
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post #1006 of 5542 Old 01-23-2010, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renpar61 View Post

Thanks for the clarification. Is this true for all processors/receivers? It sounds like a hell of a compromise.

It will only make a difference when there is some higher frequency content in the LFE channel. Maybe there never is. Looking for examples of 5.1 sound, a few years ago I split off the 5.1 sound from some Dolby Labs demo videos, and found to my surprise that the .1 channel was completely empty. All the bass was from the other 5 channels. If you can't rely on consumer equipment to manage LFE content correctly, it may have seemed a sensible policy to just not put anything in the .1 channel.

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post #1007 of 5542 Old 01-24-2010, 10:15 AM
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Macfan, thanks for your clarification and I agree. I think the issue that effects me more so than others is, I do use Plus for the sub, as I've found that when listening to music which I do alot, the 7002's don't give much on the low end. Obviously with stereo - and I listen to a lot of CD's (and I can't wait to get my old turntable going with my vinyl), the LFE is almost never engaged in any of the post processing modes, so the sub for the most part is unused. I have an Epik Phoenix sub which is actually quite musical (even more so with the ports plugged) and it really helps the 7002 alot.

What I've found is, if I don't use Plus is I have to really crank up the bass to get the music to sound full and correct. However, then when I switch to movies, it's overwhelming. By going with Plus, I can have various presets for sub levels for movie vs music vs location vs EQ, and avoid having to manually changing the Plus all the time. I think I have a fairly decent compromise, that helps overcome some of the DT issues.

I just wish you could have different speaker settings as part of the presets, that would allow large/small/plus/cross-over customization for each. That would be the holy grail.
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post #1008 of 5542 Old 01-26-2010, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmagloo View Post


I just wish you could have different speaker settings as part of the presets, that would allow large/small/plus/cross-over customization for each. That would be the holy grail.

Yes it would. I couldn't agree more. This is perhaps my biggest gripe with my 23, though I have several workarounds. Just don't feel I should be working around anything when I spent what I did on this rascal. It does sound sooooo good with video though. Guess I'll be keeping it.
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post #1009 of 5542 Old 01-27-2010, 09:13 AM
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Just for chuckles, I ran MCACC with the settings as "THX" and when it was done it had set the speakers as small. I didn't have to tweak the subs too much and really liked what I heard from the audio. Played various movies for bass, surround & etc and with THX it was darn good. All my gear can meet the THX specs so I think that for awhile I will continue to run everything this way.

Bill
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post #1010 of 5542 Old 01-27-2010, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Just for chuckles, I ran MCACC with the settings as "THX" and when it was done it had set the speakers as small. I didn't have to tweak the subs too much and really liked what I heard from the audio. Played various movies for bass, surround & etc and with THX it was darn good. All my gear can meet the THX specs so I think that for awhile I will continue to run everything this way.

Bill

If it works for you, great, but the odds are against it. THX speaker settings use crossover slopes that take into account the specific roll off requirements that THX certified speakers must meet. Using them with non-THX speakers is a shot in the dark.
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post #1011 of 5542 Old 01-27-2010, 01:24 PM
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I'm running MCACC and for some reason it keeps saying NO for my left and right surrounds, I hear the testone being done on them but it says no... makes no sense... so far I've just been overriding it and changing it to yes and clicking go next...


Is this effecting my speakers or wah? :\\
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post #1012 of 5542 Old 01-28-2010, 06:46 PM
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Is it saying this on the first full auto test? If so, that probably means it's sensing the wires might be reversed. Check it out.
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post #1013 of 5542 Old 01-28-2010, 07:13 PM
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Well I went and done it, I ordered a Integra 9.9 so I will be selling the '94. I have been a Pioneer guy since 06 as my first one was a 1014, then onto a '84, then the '94.

Bill
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post #1014 of 5542 Old 01-29-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BESLC View Post

MCACC has a reputation of doing a less than desirable job when it comes to the subwoofer.Often the level and distance for the sub are off. You may want to go into your manual settings and set the sub at 0db on the receiver (if more is needed I would not go above +3db) and adjust the distance manually based on your measurement. I would further check your sub settings if you have the ability to adjust it and make sure it is set correctly.

When I used MCACC , my sub was set a -12db and the distance was off by more than 10 feet. The MCACC was pretty accurate for distance and levels for the other speakers.

The manual specifically states that the subwoofer distance calculated by MCACC may not be the ACTUAL distance and that this is normal. MCACC tries to correct certain subwoofer anomolys and does this by varying the actual distance. If you are happy with the way your sub sounds after MCACC you should NOT change the subwoofer distance...

• The subwoofer distance setting may be farther than the actual distance from the listening position. This setting should be accurate (taking
delay and room characteristics into account) and generally does not need to be changed
• Since the distance measurements have been set according to the sound characteristics of your speakers, there are cases where (for optimal
surround sound) the actual distance may differ from the speaker distance setting.
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post #1015 of 5542 Old 01-30-2010, 09:03 AM
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^^^^ MCACC does not measure distance, per se. It merely translates its measurements into distance units for the benefit of users. It actually measures time delay. Additional time delay is inherent in LFE and subwoofer signals, so MCACC almost always reports the "distance" as greater than it actually is. This is how it should be and changing the distance based on tape measurements will degrade the sound, not enhance it.
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post #1016 of 5542 Old 01-30-2010, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u0dcameron View Post

I'm running MCACC and for some reason it keeps saying NO for my left and right surrounds, I hear the testone being done on them but it says no... makes no sense... so far I've just been overriding it and changing it to yes and clicking go next...


Is this effecting my speakers or wah? :\\

Do you have a 5.1 setup or a 7.1 setup?

If you have a 5.1 setup, have you connected the surround speakers to the surround terminals or the surround back terminals? Connect them to surround terminals and NOT to surround back terminals. Maybe, this is the cause of your problems.
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post #1017 of 5542 Old 01-30-2010, 12:55 PM
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Hi,

VSX-9040THX with Paradigm CT 110 speakers. Sounds great after tweaking MCACC settings to my preference. Have run MCACC several times based on different seating arrangements in room. Perplexing report - different speakers are being reported as out of phase each time MCACC is run.

This does not increase my confidence with the software. I am pretty sure all speakers are in phase - why would MCACC give different results on speaker phase based on mic placement? Seems to me it should be cut and dried - either they are in phase or not.

Can someone enlighten me as to what is going on?

Thx,

Vito
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post #1018 of 5542 Old 01-30-2010, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vito_jr View Post

I am pretty sure all speakers are in phase - why would MCACC give different results on speaker phase based on mic placement? Seems to me it should be cut and dried - either they are in phase or not.

I'm interested in this, too. My speakers are Polk RTi A1's (front) and CSi A4 (center), and RM101's for the surrounds. MCACC (9040TXH AKA 21TXH) detected all these as in phase. I also have a pair of Energy RC-Minis, and I wanted to see how they perform as fronts in stereo mode. (Just for my own amusement, though - I had no intention of changing my system in this way.) While I was only interested in STEREO performance for the RC-Minis, I let MCACC do all the speakers. It proceeded to find the right surround out of phase. When I removed the RC-Minis and put the RTi A1's back in the front, the right surround was once again detected as in phase. No idea why.
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post #1019 of 5542 Old 01-31-2010, 09:50 AM
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Hopefully a quick question for you MCACC experts...I realize you guys mostly have the higher end models, but I just recently got the 819, and though nothing special it suits my needs perfectly. I have rough draft manually setup with my SPL meter and actual distances and it sounds great, I did this mainly as a quick job as I was still installing components boxes around, moving speakers, cleaning up the area, but now that I'm settled in and have things where I want them I'm thinking about running the auto calibration stuff. First off Auto Phase control, audio EQ, all of these "Pioneer" features, are these just marketing magic terms when your talking about a low end model such as mine? I realize your higher end THX and Elite models might make actual use of this but at the moment I have it all turned off manually. I'm assuming when I run the auto setup it will turn most of it back on and I wasnt sure if its doing any good or if I should turn it back off or even if I can once its done automatically. My speakers consist of Polk R300's front/rear, and Polk CSR center, and Polk PSW10 for sub, I'm in a fairly small rectangular room. Any tips would be great.
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post #1020 of 5542 Old 01-31-2010, 09:54 AM
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^ ^ ^ ^
Just run Auto MCACC and let it do its job. Since you have a Sub, set all speakers to SMALL and Sub to YES (change it if Auto MCACC suggests otherwise). Don't change any of the other settings. I'm sure you would be happy.
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