"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 5531 Old 04-04-2010, 04:23 PM
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Dude, it's just a living room.

Compromises are expected. Put them anywhere you want.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #1172 of 5531 Old 04-04-2010, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Dude, it's just a living room.

Compromises are expected. Put them anywhere you want.

You know, I am thinking your right...I will just add the two more subs and place them in the other corners and get use to MCACC and be done with it until I get a better room to setup!

One question though, if I want to set MCACC to do a "multi-point" position as in multiple LP positions do I do that after I do a calibration with MCACC on one of the presets and then rerun MCACC on the same preset with the multi-point config?

Also, after I do a initiale MCACC calibration what is the best thing to do (without the aid of a pc) to boost things up...like that suggestion to rerun and do a keep all speakers...or such? I really don't get the front channel adjust or symetry....

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1173 of 5531 Old 04-06-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by StuBerger View Post

I wish my room was a better suited room for HT as well as audio! I have been racking my brains to find the BEST solution but with the room and my wife it's seeming like a impossible task!

First problem is actually the fronts...I noticed with my older speakers if I set the fronts further way from the LP and the TV...when I watched Rambo, there is a part near the beginning where the guards are letting some prisoners get off the trucks to have them run in a field with mines...when I moved the speakers farther towards the side walls, it sounded odd like the people were too far away from where they really were...and I tried toe-in to compensate for that but to no avail...that is why I am worried about moving the speakers further away from the TV to the side walls...would the new Klipch's be different?
I have read and looked at NUMEROUS "rules" and "suggestions" on proper front speaker placement...the problems I have with these are:

1. The room is very narrow...which kills a few theories and rules like:

The Golden Rule...You times the room width by .276 to find where the fronts should be away from side wall and times the room width by .447 for where the fronts should be away from the back wall... The first one is fine since it shows the fronts almost where I have mine now (3'+) however the way my room is with openings and furniture the ladder is impoosible since I can't put my speakers 5'+ out from the front wall!

2. The problem with the sound field like I stated above with the Rambo movie! Which is also a problem placing the sub between the fronts and center channel!

3. The DTS rule that the fronts should be between 45 degree to 60 degree angle from the LP which again would place them further away from the TV which again would run into the realism of sound field like the Rambo movie scene! And one of the fronts would wind up in the hallway near that large opening!

The subs...which I haven't heard too much "boomyness" could be moved (which I would hate to do but want the best sound) but if I moved one in front between the center and front the soundfield issue comes up again and where would I put the second one in back...as you look at my pics..I have an opening going into a kitchen with just a foot and a half of wall space..couldn't put a sub there...and the only two places I could put a sub in the rear would be either in the middle(which would block a HVAC vent) or in the far corner on the right side.
If I could move the front sub in between the center and front where would be a ideal place then to put the rear sub concerning my room?

Is there a way to fix the sound problem with the fronts so I could move them further away from the TV? It really bothered me when I had them apart and only noticed it when I watched that scene from Rambo...the people were getting out of the trucks and were right to the left of the screen but you could see them but it sounded like they were way to far to the left of the screen like in another part of the picture you couldn't see! I am sure that is due to both the size of the TV (52") and the room and speaker placement!

I also noticed that some suggest that dual subs can be both upfront and is better than one in front and one in the rear but they should be placed 1/4 of the room width...my room is 11'...so that would put them right where my fronts would be if I moved them...arggghhhhh

And I know both subs shouldn't be on the same wall like front right and back right...

The only thing I could think of that could be a possibility would be moving one sub from the far right corner in towards the LP but keep it on that same wall...hug the wall but about 4' from the front wall....but where could I move the other...middle back would block a AC vent...the far opposite wall has a opening to another oom with only a foot and a half of wall there...the other wall would be the same wall the front is on since I couldn't move the front sub to the opposite wall due to opening and loveseat. The only other places would be opposite the main couch but that would not give too much room to walk between the wall/sub and the couch...(remember room is narrow) or put it on the rear wall just before the vent and the wall with the opening!

What to do????

Hi Stu, sorry for slow reply, busy weekend

I agree and disagree with Stew, it is just a living room, but, it's your living room and you want the best sound you can get. There are comprises to be made, but, you still want to get the best you can with what you have.

The thing I think you are worrying about too much are the formulae for the perfect listening sound. Everybody has different situations, different furniture, floors, carpets, room shapes etc. etc. Forget the maths for a few minutes and swap the subs and the front speakers.

Then you run MCACC exactly like it says on the front of this thread. Go for all channel adjust. MCACC should solve all the distance problems and make sounds come from the proper locations. Just follow the steps along, don't sweat the comprehension for the first few tries. I tried to understand it all first, but, when I used the guides and did the MCACC runs a few times, understanding dawned on me

Just a note on following the steps at the front of this thread, for your situation, In step 2 I would set all the speakers to small and the crossover to 80. I know you said earlier that your speakers go down to 33hz, but, your subs should be more capable of producing low frequencies.
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post #1174 of 5531 Old 04-06-2010, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBerger View Post

...when I watched Rambo, there is a part near the beginning where the guards are letting some prisoners get off the trucks to have them run in a field with mines...when I moved the speakers farther towards the side walls, it sounded odd like the people were too far away from where they really were...

By "where they really were", do you mean where they appeared to be as you direct your gaze at your screen, or do you mean where you would see them if you were really at the scene in person? Unless you have an unusual setup, your visual stage is much narrower than it would be in real life, while your sound stage is about the same as it would be if you were on the scene. I often experience the incongruity of sounds coming from the far left or far right, while the things making the sounds are at the left and right of my screen, and consequently much closer together.

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post #1175 of 5531 Old 04-07-2010, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

By "where they really were", do you mean where they appeared to be as you direct your gaze at your screen, or do you mean where you would see them if you were really at the scene in person? Unless you have an unusual setup, your visual stage is much narrower than it would be in real life, while your sound stage is about the same as it would be if you were on the scene. I often experience the incongruity of sounds coming from the far left or far right, while the things making the sounds are at the left and right of my screen, and consequently much closer together.

Yes, as I am watching the scene in Rambo...I can see at the left of my screen people getting off of a couple military trucks ready to run through a field with mines thrown by their captives (sounds like fun, huh?)...when I had my fronts seperated more towards the side walls it sounded like the people were out of the scene, far away from the actual movie...didn't sound right to me...and with the room being soooo narrow (11') if I were to swap the subs with the fronts I would have the fronts where the sound problem was happening...however, as reaper12 suggested I didn't rerun MCACC after moving them...but I don't see how MCACC would correct that problem.\\
Yes, the vocals didn't sound right as in like being there in person or watching...

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post #1176 of 5531 Old 04-07-2010, 08:53 AM
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Here's what I am working with.....
LL
LL
LL
LL

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1177 of 5531 Old 04-07-2010, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBerger View Post

...however, as reaper12 suggested I didn't rerun MCACC after moving them...but I don't see how MCACC would correct that problem.

Maybe MCACC won't correct the problem, but it's worth a try. After all, it's little trouble to re-run MCACC.

If what I suggested before was on the right track, the fundamental problem is that your screen isn't wide enough (and I have the same difficulty in my setup). But given the narrow screen, you can look for the best-sounding compromise by experimenting (as I think reaper12 is suggesting).

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post #1178 of 5531 Old 04-07-2010, 08:08 PM
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Hi Stu,

With such a nice speaker n equipment setup, are you telling me there is no projector ?
Please don't miss the BIG picture !!!

Man see things as they were n say why. I dream of things that never were, n say why not ....... A Perfect PROJECTOR
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post #1179 of 5531 Old 04-07-2010, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac388 View Post

Hi Stu,

With such a nice speaker n equipment setup, are you telling me there is no projector ?
Please don't miss the BIG picture !!!

Projectors are usually in home theaters. He has a living room.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #1180 of 5531 Old 04-08-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Maybe MCACC won't correct the problem, but it's worth a try. After all, it's little trouble to re-run MCACC.

If what I suggested before was on the right track, the fundamental problem is that your screen isn't wide enough (and I have the same difficulty in my setup). But given the narrow screen, you can look for the best-sounding compromise by experimenting (as I think reaper12 is suggesting).

This weekend I will run another MCACC with me swapping the fronts with the subs and see if MCACC corrects the sound issue...yes, it is like I am watcjhing that part...I can see the people getting off the truck and talking to the far left of the TV (Sony KDL52V5100 52") but the sounds of their voices seemed like they were all the way to the far left of the room...I even tried toeing in the speakers to see if that would help but didn't!

I know I read a formula for figuring out where to put your fronts and the formula shows: Distance is by room width...
Center of woofer to sidewall - RW x .276 (which is about where I have them now 3+ feet away) and center of woofer to rear wall of speaker - RW x .447...which is way to far for my room...too bad..that's like 5+ feet away from the rear wall!

And from the pics I posted I am limited buy room and wifey!

If MCACC doesn't correct that problem I am stuck where they are...I can't wait to get a dedicated HT room and a projector and screen!

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1181 of 5531 Old 04-08-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Projectors are usually in home theaters. He has a living room.

LOL...I don't think a screen would fit in that room but when I do move and get my own dedicated room...that's the way I will go...and with good acoustic treatments as well...

Now it's just getting this room functional for now!

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1182 of 5531 Old 04-08-2010, 08:41 PM
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Hey guys,

been diggin through quite a bit of the thread and just spent about an hour calibrating my SC-27. It is far and away the best my HT has ever sounded. My question is what are peoples impressions of X-Curve? I don't think i've seen it mentioned in this entire thread and it seems like it would have its usefulness. Is there a reccommended setting or is it just based on what you hear? Thanks for any insight you guys can offer.

Carrying on the legacy of Len Tweten
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post #1183 of 5531 Old 04-08-2010, 11:14 PM
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I think the X-Cure just knocks db's of the high frequencys, -0.5 to -3dbs i think, i can take it to -1.5db and its ok any more and the sound becomes muddy/muffeld. i have a very small very reflective room full of wood bare walls and glass
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post #1184 of 5531 Old 04-09-2010, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by RedlineRonin View Post

Hey guys,

been diggin through quite a bit of the thread and just spent about an hour calibrating my SC-27. It is far and away the best my HT has ever sounded. My question is what are peoples impressions of X-Curve? I don't think i've seen it mentioned in this entire thread and it seems like it would have its usefulness. Is there a reccommended setting or is it just based on what you hear? Thanks for any insight you guys can offer.

I have a bright room and a Klipsch reference system. I use the X-curve a -1.5 and it improved the clarity of the sound.

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post #1185 of 5531 Old 04-09-2010, 06:44 AM
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Why is it no matter how I do MCACC...I did the last setup like the front of this thread recommends and still when it is finished it's like a -10dB drop in sound?

When I follow the instructions from the thread, do I do the calibration as symmetry or All Channel Adjust or what....I like the idea of flat response but damn there is a drop in volume and clarity...argghhhhhh!

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1186 of 5531 Old 04-09-2010, 07:39 AM
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I have switched from Sym and All Adjust to mcacc front align, this seams to add bass weight upfront and takes the edge off the bright sound as mcacc sets all the eq values in the +db region down to 500Hz, 500Hz-63Hz are all -db's so the who thing sounds very light and bright with no bass what so ever from the front speakers and and over forward and edgey sound.

just watching MTV and switching from one to the other you can hear the difference in much more depth to the sound and still clear.This by the way is in 2 Chn.

Also ran through a few BD's and sounds ok to me running at -10db in direct mode, not "Pure Direct" and again with the surrounds and center EQ'd, 5.1 everything seams to blend ok, just more weight up front.

To be honest i know my room is a little reflective but i have shut all the blindes and coversd any wood i can with towels and duvets and run MCACC and there is no difference between that mcacc run and one in the room without this treatment either way i get all high frequencys boosted and all lower frequencys knocked off
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post #1187 of 5531 Old 04-09-2010, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Today I played a lot with the time delays for EQ pro. I tryed all of them fro m30-50ms up to the default. I settled on 60-80ms. It seemed like a nice halfway point between EQing the speakers and the reverb in the room. My room is NOT very reflective as I have couches, carpet, not a lot of windows and 8 foot ceilings. It is, however, open to the kitchen and a hallway.

Gov...have a question...is this the Gov that frequented the woods in Palatine...Circle 5?

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post #1188 of 5531 Old 04-10-2010, 04:51 AM
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Well, I started to swap the fronts and the subs and as soon as I got the right front where the right sub was the wifey put the kabash on the whole thing since the front right speaker is blocking the window #^$!@&%^ so it's back to getting used to MCACC or I will be found in a corner talking to myself!

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1189 of 5531 Old 04-10-2010, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by StuBerger View Post

Well, I started to swap the fronts and the subs and as soon as I got the right front where the right sub was the wifey put the kabash on the whole thing since the front right speaker is blocking the window #^$!@&%^ so it's back to getting used to MCACC or I will be found in a corner talking to myself!

lol, life is hard sometimes!!
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post #1190 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 06:18 AM
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Yes, that is going to be my objective...to get a grasp of MCACC...and buy a SPL meter! You know, when I started this thread as well as the same in other forums the idea was figuring out why MCACC wasn't getting the sound right..usually sounds muffled and not very detailed and I dont know how my subs came into the picture...probably because of the pictures and where I have them placed..lol!

It seems that alot of people have suggested I move the subs either in and fronts out or move them....I don't hear that much "boomy" however I am new to all this! I actually placed them in the corners since Pete at HSU suggested it as well as sites that show proper sub placement...aside from having multiple subs like say in the middle of the room on each side or one in front corner and one in opposite back corners they show the two (1/4 of the RW on each side but I can't do that since the room is very narrow) up front!

I just wish I can get MCACC to stop degrading the sound so I can one, use the subs in Max Ext (since I like how the subs sound in Max Output now due to MCACC stiffling the bass) and two, start to enjoy the sound!

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1191 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 06:19 AM
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If anyone is near southern Illinois...and would like to have all the food and drink they want as well as being treated like a King (lol) come on over and help a man almost crazed........

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1192 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBerger View Post

Yes, that is going to be my objective...to get a grasp of MCACC...and buy a SPL meter!you still haven't done this? You know, when I started this thread as well as the same in other forums the idea was figuring out why MCACC wasn't getting the sound right..usually sounds muffled and not very detailed and I dont know how my subs came into the picture...probably because of the pictures and where I have them placed..lol! your subs "came into the picture" because THEY are what your problem is, not mcacc.

It seems that alot of people have suggested I move the subs either in and fronts out or move them....I don't hear that much "boomy" however I am new to all this! I actually placed them in the corners since Pete at HSU suggested it as well as sites that show proper sub placement...aside from having multiple subs like say in the middle of the room on each side or one in front corner and one in opposite back corners they show the two (1/4 of the RW on each side but I can't do that since the room is very narrow) up front! so, you really aren't doing what they suggest, correct?

I just wish I can get MCACC to stop degrading the sound so I can one, use the subs in Max Ext (since I like how the subs sound in Max Output now due to MCACC stiffling the bass) and two, start to enjoy the sound!

some comments in red...

there's a way to get mcacc to stop "degrading" the sound... turn it off....

but mcacc is not affecting your subs in any way...

stu, you seem to be wanting to blame mcacc for everything (most recently the lack of width of your room and/or screen)... it's not mcacc that's the "problem" for you...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #1193 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

some comments in red...

there's a way to get mcacc to stop "degrading" the sound... turn it off....

but mcacc is not affecting your subs in any way...

stu, you seem to be wanting to blame mcacc for everything (most recently the lack of width of your room and/or screen)... it's not mcacc that's the "problem" for you...

Okay...my main complaint that started this all was how my wife and I felt about the sound quality within the room after MCACC did it's calibration for the 7 speakers we have...not the sub! I followed the instructions from the first page of this thread to the letter. I was going to throw a blanket over the glass coffee table in front of the couch but didn't.

Also, before we set up the new speakers and ran the MCACC calibration, I found in the room where the music (I do listen to music too!) sounded the best..Where if your anywhere near the LP area you can visualize the singer is in center and the drums sound the same. I also found a formula for front speaker placement, which has my fronts almost dead on aside from them not being 5+ feet from the front wall..that's impossible for us!

Due to my wife and the window near the front of the room put the kabash on moving the fronts out more and switching the subs. Again, let me say I don't hear or feel too much "boomieness" at all and Pete from HSU, after talking with me for a good 25mins had suggested corner placement too...and to keep the level at 9:00 which on each sub gives me a 0.0dB reading on MCACC after a calibration.

After we move, than I will make sure I have a room of my own to make a dedicated HT....I can't wait!

I do appreciate all the help and suggestions from everyone in here...I wish I was more seasoned in all this stuff...

I will enclose some pics, if that helps, of MCACC's last calibration which note...I did follow the instructions in this thread...and maybe that can shine some light... let's forget the subs right now...I am sure MCACC doesn't calibrate your whole system due to sound from your subs if I am correct in assuming!

From what my room looks like and the size and layout of furniture and openings and windows in the post some time ago, does the calibrations look Kosher or should I go commit myself....
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1194 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 08:40 AM
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Only could upload 5...here's some more!
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1195 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 08:41 AM
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and the last two...

It's not blaming MCACC...how can I blame MCACC on something I don't even know too much at all about...I just find after doing a calibration we don't find the sound is impressive to say the least.
LL
LL

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1196 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Maybe MCACC won't correct the problem, but it's worth a try. After all, it's little trouble to re-run MCACC.

If what I suggested before was on the right track, the fundamental problem is that your screen isn't wide enough (and I have the same difficulty in my setup). But given the narrow screen, you can look for the best-sounding compromise by experimenting (as I think reaper12 is suggesting).

There isn't too much compromise with 11' of space.. and am I correct in my thinking when I feel even though I would run MCACC after I moved the front speakers out to the corners of the front wall I would still get that same problem with sound and visual placement? I know that scene in the movie that I am using to give a visualization of the problem shows the people off to the left of the scene..but are visual in the scene..since the speakers would be further out wouldn't the same effect happen...how would MCACC correct that??? The scene most definately has the sound coming from the left front speaker...if I move the front left speaker all the way to the far left wall how would MCACC fill in the gap between it and the center...or even know how far the speaker/s are to the TV? I know it goes by the mic and to the LP but sheeesh...

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
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post #1197 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 12:38 PM
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could you explain how to get best time period from reverb graph?

Here is my reverb data i think 10-20 ms is ok.

In data file you can find all my 6 mcacc presets. i changed my front speaker from MA BR5 to MA RX8 . Mcacc1 is my old preset used with BR5 .

Mcacc 3 and 4 calibrated with 30-50 ms time period .

Mcacc 5 calibrated with 10-20 ms time period

Mcacc 6 calibrated with auto mcacc .

my reciver is 1018ah eu version with THX .

Thank you
LL
LL

 

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post #1198 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 03:48 PM
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I just noticed something that one of the forum members in Home Theater Shack mentioned it but he wasn't sure and neither am I of a setting in MCACC...

After I get done using MCACC to calibrate...when I go into manual speaker settings it shows at the bottom under X. Over 80Hz (THX: ALL SMALL) is that how it's suppose to look...I know I don't program MCACC to do a THX calibration...is there anyway to turn that off or is that just something that is normal?

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post #1199 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBerger View Post

... I feel even though I would run MCACC after I moved the front speakers out to the corners of the front wall I would still get that same problem with sound and visual placement?

Yes, I suppose so. But maybe we're both wrong, and as you experiment, something magical will happen.

Greg Lee
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post #1200 of 5531 Old 04-11-2010, 11:30 PM
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Hi guys.
I was hoping someone could help me better understand exactly what I'm dealing with, concerning manual equalizer adjustments, when I encounter the dreaded red "over".

I had an urge to experiment / play around with the equalizer settings on my vsx-23, and noticed it didn't take much to get that "over" to get displayed.
Pretty much a 7 or 7.5 and that was it.

Is this a cautionary thing, and I "may" be getting close to some sort of distortion, or does the over indicate definate and noticable problems?

If I have equalizer ranges that go to 10, I may want to put it there for a sec and give it a listen, and it just seems weird, to me anyway, that this equalizer provides a range, then tells me by way of the "over" that I can't really use the whole range afterall.

I recently upgraded my 19 year old system and I wanted to hear how my paradigm studio 100's sounded at various settings, but that "over" has me wanting to check that my playing around isn't actually harmfull.

As a side note, I scooped an Outlaw 7200 amp to ensure plenty of available power for the speakers....just in case.

As always, thanks ahead of time to any and all that reply.

Don
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