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post #121 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Can you do each channel separately?

I'm looking at the graphs for each channel/freq. and they vary a lot.

If not, do we pick an average measurement time? How so?

thx

bob

My undertsanding is no. Those various channel and frequency readouts are for evaluation to choose ONE delay time that will be applied to all channels. To determine that delay time, refer to my original post with the pages I mentioned in the attached manuals. But to summarize, they recommend 30-50 ms, but also say another option is to try various delay times and see which one sounds the best.
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post #122 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 01:53 PM
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This is my conclusion. Advanced MCAAC is tough unless you have the PC output capability and about five weeks free. I have concluded that I am going no farther than the following for now:

1) Use the work flow in my original post EXCEPT when I run custom auto MCAAC and select Keep Sp settings, I will also save the All CH adjust and Front Align to two seperate presets.

2) Now I will run advanced EQ for all three presets after selecting 30-50 ms.

3) I will then copy the preset that was calibrated to symmetry to a fourth preset, and then run advanced eq on that with delay set to 10-30ms.

4) I will then copy the preset that was calibrated to symmetry to a fifth preset, and then run advanced eq on that with delay set to 20-40ms.

5) I will then copy M1 to M6, and then turn off EQ and standing wave.

So now I have :
M1 symmetry 30-50 ms
M2 front align 30-50 ms
M3 all ch adjust 30-50 ms
M4 symmetry 10-30 ms
M5 symmetry 20-40 ms
M6 M1 except no filters or eq or standing wave...so it is just channel level adjustments, speaker settings, and speaker distance settings that are active.

Now I will run reverb measurment with EQ ON for M1, M4, and M5 and see which one flattens out the frequency response the most via reverb view.

Now I will compare all 6 AND Pure Direct while watching Blu ray scenes.

If I cannot discern a difference between the last two or three contenders then I am going with M1...because after my ears, I trust Advanced MCAAC.



Edit: brief explanation of stuff referenced above.......


"Despite being satisfied with these results, I decided to try out the advanced MCACC program, which provides some customizable options and measures two additional seating positions. After the calibration was complete, three separate correction curves were stored in memory—"Symmetry" (default) flattens the frequency response of the front right and left channels, "All Channel Adjust" flattens all channels, and "Front Align" sets all speakers in accordance with the front-speaker settings (no equalization is applied to the front left and right channels). In my room, I found that the "Symmetry" setting was the most pleasing and the "Front Align" was the worst, but all sounded better than not applying any room correction."
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post #123 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 04:40 PM
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gamelover, what exactly is the difference in the timing? I used the advanced eq with a timing of 30-50ms on my first three presets.
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post #124 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 06:03 PM
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gamelover:

You are the Man! You are saving me a lot of time which is in short supply. I appreciate the efforts.

Keep it coming!

Mike
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post #125 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 06:24 PM
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anyone using an velodyne sms-1 for there sub?

if so how what did you do first? sms then mcacc?

thanks
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post #126 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

"Symmetry" (default) flattens the frequency response of the front right and left channels, "All Channel Adjust" flattens all channels, and "Front Align" sets all speakers in accordance with the front-speaker settings (no equalization is applied to the front left and right channels).

Almost right. The Symmetry setting corrects all the speakers but it does them in pairs -- same EQ to the FL and FR, same EQ to the SL and SR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rswelter View Post

anyone using an velodyne sms-1 for there sub?

if so how what did you do first? sms then mcacc?

Yeah, let the Velodyne EQ fix the sub and then run MCACC. MCACC doesn't do too much to the sub so get the sub as good as you can before you run it.

Dennis H
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post #127 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Almost right. The Symmetry setting corrects all the speakers but it does them in pairs -- same EQ to the FL and FR, same EQ to the SL and SR.

Yeah, let the Velodyne EQ fix the sub and then run MCACC. MCACC doesn't do too much to the sub so get the sub as good as you can before you run it.

that was my gut feeling thanks and makes most sense
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post #128 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Almost right. The Symmetry setting corrects all the speakers but it does them in pairs -- same EQ to the FL and FR, same EQ to the SL and SR.

Yeah, let the Velodyne EQ fix the sub and then run MCACC. MCACC doesn't do too much to the sub so get the sub as good as you can before you run it.

Catapult, what does the "All Channel Adjust" do? That is what I have mine set too, and it sounds really good. Just curious.
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post #129 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrlhobbs View Post

Catapult, what does the "All Channel Adjust" do? That is what I have mine set too, and it sounds really good. Just curious.

It applies a separate EQ (flat setting) for each individual speaker. SW not included




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post #130 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 07:41 PM
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on my 91, i dont have a symmetry setting. i have all ch adjust
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post #131 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

This is my conclusion. Advanced MCAAC is tough unless you have the PC output capability and about five weeks free. I have concluded that I am going no farther than the following for now:

1) Use the work flow in my original post EXCEPT when I run custom auto MCAAC and select Keep Sp settings, I will also save the All CH adjust and Front Align to two seperate presets.

2) Now I will run advanced EQ for all three presets after selecting 30-50 ms.

3) I will then copy the preset that was calibrated to symmetry to a fourth preset, and then run advanced eq on that with delay set to 10-30ms.

4) I will then copy the preset that was calibrated to symmetry to a fifth preset, and then run advanced eq on that with delay set to 20-40ms.

5) I will then copy M1 to M6, and then turn off EQ and standing wave.

So now I have :
M1 symmetry 30-50 ms
M2 front align 30-50 ms
M3 all ch adjust 30-50 ms
M4 symmetry 10-30 ms
M5 symmetry 20-40 ms
M6 M1 except no filters or eq or standing wave...so it is just channel level adjustments, speaker settings, and speaker distance settings that are active.

Now I will run reverb measurment with EQ ON for M1, M4, and M5 and see which one flattens out the frequency response the most via reverb view.

Now I will compare all 6 AND Pure Direct while watching Blu ray scenes.

If I cannot discern a difference between the last two or three contenders then I am going with M1...because after my ears, I trust Advanced MCAAC.



Edit: brief explanation of stuff referenced above.......


"Despite being satisfied with these results, I decided to try out the advanced MCACC program, which provides some customizable options and measures two additional seating positions. After the calibration was complete, three separate correction curves were stored in memory"Symmetry" (default) flattens the frequency response of the front right and left channels, "All Channel Adjust" flattens all channels, and "Front Align" sets all speakers in accordance with the front-speaker settings (no equalization is applied to the front left and right channels). In my room, I found that the "Symmetry" setting was the most pleasing and the "Front Align" was the worst, but all sounded better than not applying any room correction."

Nice work there mister!!

I have done a lot of MCACC tweaking since getting my SC-05, so much in fact, I almost committed myself for it . Seriously though, I have found that this reverb stuff is pretty much unnecessary for almost all in home applications. I think it leads to a lot of confusion and more chance of mucking things up instead of making it better.
I have found that I like auto MCACC and have run each EQ mode (symmetry, all channels adjust, and front align) with 3 position standing wave seperately. I much prefer "front align" over the other two EQ modes. I feel that in room EQ on my mains made for a muddy, dull non detailed listening experience. I like EQ on my center channel as I feel it makes the dialog in movies really stand out.
So I say don't get hung up on running the EQ's with the reverb time delay settings, just use the auto MCACC settings.




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post #132 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

on my 91, i dont have a symmetry setting. i have all ch adjust


And I am sure you have a "front align" too.




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post #133 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 08:09 PM
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yes front align, all ch adjust, ALL, ALL keep sp settings.

here is what my 91 does:
Auto Mode – The default is ALL (recommended), but
you can limit the system calibration to only one
setting (to save time) if you want. The available
options are ALL, ALL (Keep SPsetting), Speaker
Setting, Channel Level, Speaker Distance,
Acoustic Cal EQ, and Aco Cal EQ Pro.
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post #134 of 5655 Old 01-28-2009, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Nice work there mister!!

I have done a lot of MCACC tweaking since getting my SC-05, so much in fact, I almost committed myself for it . Seriously though, I have found that this reverb stuff is pretty much unnecessary for almost all in home applications. I think it leads to a lot of confusion and more chance of mucking things up instead of making it better.
I have found that I like auto MCACC and have run each EQ mode (symmetry, all channels adjust, and front align) with 3 position standing wave seperately. I much prefer "front align" over the other two EQ modes. I feel that in room EQ on my mains made for a muddy, dull non detailed listening experience. I like EQ on my center channel as I feel it makes the dialog in movies really stand out.
So I say don't get hung up on running the EQ's with the reverb time delay settings, just use the auto MCACC settings.

So would you suggest using the default delay time or running advanced and setting it to 30-50ms? Also do you know is auto mcaac selects a delay time based upon reverb measurements or if it is a set default? thanks.
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post #135 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 03:24 AM
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This thread scares and frightens me... you people with your fancy computers and endless tinkering...

Umm... but to actually be somewhat on topic

1. What does the trim setting do in the EQ?
2. Full band phase control on? off?
3. S-wave I still don't get what that does can someone help me out? I tried it on off, and can't hear a difference.
4. This is sorta mcacc related (well not really), whats better PLII, Neo:6, or THX?
5. When you turn the volume up/down whats with the -DB rating? Is 0 reference level? Also why is SPL lower after mcacc on all speakers?
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post #136 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrio View Post

This thread scares and frightens me... you people with your fancy computers and endless tinkering...

Umm... but to actually be somewhat on topic

1. What does the trim setting do in the EQ?
2. Full band phase control on? off?
3. S-wave I still don't get what that does can someone help me out? I tried it on off, and can't hear a difference.
4. This is sorta mcacc related (well not really), whats better PLII, Neo:6, or THX?
5. When you turn the volume up/down whats with the -DB rating? Is 0 reference level? Also why is SPL lower after mcacc on all speakers?

I like the THX settings, normally THX select2 Cinema.

BTW after MCCAC I normally run mine at -15, and thats LOUD. I think this thing goes to +12! Also keep in mind the volume indicator is relative to the speaker levels and EQ settings that you have.

Keep your phase control and standing wave turned ON.

Hope this helps
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post #137 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

So would you suggest using the default delay time or running advanced and setting it to 30-50ms? Also do you know is auto mcaac selects a delay time based upon reverb measurements or if it is a set default? thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Nice work there mister!!

I have done a lot of MCACC tweaking since getting my SC-05, so much in fact, I almost committed myself for it . Seriously though, I have found that this reverb stuff is pretty much unnecessary for almost all in home applications. I think it leads to a lot of confusion and more chance of mucking things up instead of making it better.
I have found that I like auto MCACC and have run each EQ mode (symmetry, all channels adjust, and front align) with 3 position standing wave seperately. I much prefer "front align" over the other two EQ modes. I feel that in room EQ on my mains made for a muddy, dull non detailed listening experience. I like EQ on my center channel as I feel it makes the dialog in movies really stand out.
So I say don't get hung up on running the EQ's with the reverb time delay settings, just use the auto MCACC settings.

In the end I settled on the same. Auto MCCAC worked the best(so far), the earlier delays on custom eq seemed to "thin" out my sound too much. All the channels came out real dry, and the room seemed more empty.
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post #138 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I like the THX settings, normally THX select2 Cinema.

BTW after MCCAC I normally run mine at -15, and thats LOUD. I think this thing goes to +12! Also keep in mind the volume indicator is relative to the speaker levels and EQ settings that you have.

Keep your phase control and standing wave turned ON.

Hope this helps

Just a quick question, how big is your room and what kind of speakers are you using?

In my case I am using totem mites and I have a very small room but I just can't hit that satisfying volume, I've gone as loud as 0 db and still nothing. I mean it almost feels like there isn't enough power behind them.

PS: I just switched from a yamaha RXV-1700 to a pioneer SC-07
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post #139 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Nice work there mister!!

I have done a lot of MCACC tweaking since getting my SC-05, so much in fact, I almost committed myself for it . Seriously though, I have found that this reverb stuff is pretty much unnecessary for almost all in home applications. I think it leads to a lot of confusion and more chance of mucking things up instead of making it better.
I have found that I like auto MCACC and have run each EQ mode (symmetry, all channels adjust, and front align) with 3 position standing wave seperately. I much prefer "front align" over the other two EQ modes. I feel that in room EQ on my mains made for a muddy, dull non detailed listening experience. I like EQ on my center channel as I feel it makes the dialog in movies really stand out.
So I say don't get hung up on running the EQ's with the reverb time delay settings, just use the auto MCACC settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

In the end I settled on the same. Auto MCCAC worked the best(so far), the earlier delays on custom eq seemed to "thin" out my sound too much. All the channels came out real dry, and the room seemed more empty.

I will use my ears as final judge this weekend. But what of this standing wave 3 mic position calibration. My understanding was that it was to make the listening better for 3 seating positions....NOT take 3 measurements to better calibrate for 1 seating position. If my understanding is correct, then the 3 mic placement calibration will dilute the EQ settings and spread around the adjustments for 3 seating positions.....and not calibrate as accurately for any one seating position.

Edit: just read manual and it says that multi point is used to get a balanced flat calibration for mulitple listening positions. So if you move around to listen, use it. If not....don't.
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post #140 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

So would you suggest using the default delay time or running advanced and setting it to 30-50ms?

Default




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post #141 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Edit: just read manual and it says that multi point is used to get a balanced flat calibration for mulitple listening positions. So if you move around to listen, use it. If not....don't.

Yes correct. I used 3-position because I sometimes sit in a different seat. In my room, I took all three calibrations within 10 feet of each other.




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post #142 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Also do you know is auto mcaac selects a delay time based upon reverb measurements or if it is a set default? thanks.

I think its a default setting. If I were a betting man, I bet it is 30ms-50ms since thats what Pioneer recommends for most applications




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post #143 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 07:20 AM
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Does anyone know how to get the MCAAC pc setup disc?? I search thier website and could not find anything listed.
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post #144 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I think its a default setting. If I were a betting man, I bet it is 30ms-50ms since thats what Pioneer recommends for most applications

I read that 120-180ms is default (I think that was the numbers, but if not that then very close to it). But in another spot in the manual I got the impression that MCAAC evaluates you rooms reverb characteristics and make a delay setting based on that when in Auto MCAAC. Either way I will listen to teh Auto setting (whatever that may be) and 30-50ms and see what sounds best in my room.
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post #145 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrio View Post

Just a quick question, how big is your room and what kind of speakers are you using?

In my case I am using totem mites and I have a very small room but I just can't hit that satisfying volume, I've gone as loud as 0 db and still nothing. I mean it almost feels like there isn't enough power behind them.

PS: I just switched from a yamaha RXV-1700 to a pioneer SC-07

Bump up the fine channel levels equally to all channels including sub by 8db or so depending on how much room is left (+10 max).

This really helped my 82 have more punch and kept the vol level lower (-30 vs -22, etc)


bob
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post #146 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I read that 120-180ms is default (I think that was the numbers, but if not that then very close to it). But in another spot in the manual I got the impression that MCAAC evaluates you rooms reverb characteristics and make a delay setting based on that when in Auto MCAAC. Either way I will listen to teh Auto setting (whatever that may be) and 30-50ms and see what sounds best in my room.

My 82 and 59 books show 80-160 in the diagram with the gray circles as default.

bob
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post #147 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrio View Post

Just a quick question, how big is your room and what kind of speakers are you using?

In my case I am using totem mites and I have a very small room but I just can't hit that satisfying volume, I've gone as loud as 0 db and still nothing. I mean it almost feels like there isn't enough power behind them.

PS: I just switched from a yamaha RXV-1700 to a pioneer SC-07


EMP EF30Ts for mains, EF30Cs everywhere else(7.0), and Hsu 3.3 for the subwoofer.

Before these I had Yamaha NS-6490s and NS-c444, with 4way towers.

With both setups anything more than -15 is painfully loud >100db.
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post #148 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 09:40 AM
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Last night I re-ran MCACC in the "expert mode", custom, selected all, THX no and I found some of the results interesting. The two pics show my left and right surrounds. My right surround certainly seems to be struggling @ 63Hz and also to a lesser degree with the rest of the frequencies South of the xover.

Possible reasons for the lower frequency struggle:

There is an overstuffed hunk of furniture in the signal path, not directly in line with the speaker (from the microphone position I can see the speaker cones) but clearly soaking up the vibes.

The speaker's woofer is having problems?

I'll swap speakers and if they check out OK then I guess I'll have some re-arranging of speaker(s) or furniture. The wife just loves this stuff.

An informative program. I did notice that in "Acoustic Cal Eq" that it bumped the speaker +10dB @63Hz for All Channel Adjust but didn't for Symmetry or front align. Hmmm.

Glad you folks started this thread. I'm looking forward to the educational experience.
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post #149 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rswelter View Post

anyone using an velodyne sms-1 for there sub?

if so how what did you do first? sms then mcacc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Yeah, let the Velodyne EQ fix the sub and then run MCACC. MCACC doesn't do too much to the sub so get the sub as good as you can before you run it.

I've tried it both ways and, not unexpectedly, verified that you get better results if you run SMS-1 first. Otherwise, MCACC includes bass irregularities in it's calculation, and sets the bass level inaccurately (frequently too low, as most untreated rooms create a severe bump somewhere in the bass region).

I got the best results by getting the bass as flat as possible with the SMS-1, running and tweaking MCACC, then going back and tweaking the SMS-1 again, at that stage incorporating my "house curve", and adjusting my SMS-1 custom settings.
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post #150 of 5655 Old 01-29-2009, 09:52 AM
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Could someone please explain a little more about Symmetry, all ch adjust, and front align.....and most importantly how that may impact the listening experience in general. I watch blu rays only.

Thanks.
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