"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I find that MCACC never sets the sub flat with the speakers. Speakers come in at 75 db and sub also comes in at 75 db. Sub should be 72-73 db to be flat with speakers.

Bill

Why? I never heard that?

thx

bob
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post #242 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 04:15 PM
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Well....I popped in AVIA Home Theater Tune Up DVD brought out the Rat Shack SPL and found that MCACC is setting the sub exactly 2.5db hot.
So, it appears that "bsoko2" is correct
So for everyone thinking MCACC is setting the sub flat, it appears it is about 2.5-3db hot. Something to keep in mind if you like to play bass heavy material near reference levels.

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post #243 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Well....I popped in AVIA Home Theater Tune Up DVD brought out the Rat Shack SPL and found that MCACC is setting the sub exactly 2.5db hot.
So, it appears that "bsoko2" is correct
So for everyone thinking MCACC is setting the sub flat, it appears it is about 2.5-3db hot. Something to keep in mind if you like to play bass heavy material near reference levels.

I'll have to check that way. What do you get when you run the levels from the Pio? Mine runs 75-76 just like all the other speakers.

I have a Rocket UFW-10 sub and it blends seamlessly most of the time. Exeption; food tv sometimes really over pushing the bottom end.


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post #244 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Well....I popped in AVIA Home Theater Tune Up DVD brought out the Rat Shack SPL and found that MCACC is setting the sub exactly 2.5db hot.
So, it appears that "bsoko2" is correct
So for everyone thinking MCACC is setting the sub flat, it appears it is about 2.5-3db hot. Something to keep in mind if you like to play bass heavy material near reference levels.

He was saying that it sets it the same as the other speakers, not hot. Then he says that the level should be lower to be "correct" and that is what I am questioning. If you are getting different readings from the Pio and Avia, then is it the Pios's sub test signal that is at fault?


bob
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post #245 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 05:35 PM
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To have a "flat" system, speakers are set at 75 db and the sub is set at 72-73 db. The pink tone from reciever for sub is different then the speakers. Try it, and you will hear a difference in the total output from the speakers. There is more detail in the speakers as they are now truly balanced.

Bill
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post #246 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi
I have run MCACC for my system. For movies, the sound is "good". However, for music sucks !
When checked, my full sized fronts are rated small, most of my music is coming out of the not so great center channel.
What I want is my full sized fronts R+L do ALL of the music and have only the Sub . I dont want center or rear surrounds
Ideally, I would like to have the sub kick in around 80 Hz.
On the existing SMALL setting for the front right and left, the music played from those speakers sound like the midrange and lower frequencies are missing.
When set to "Stereo" mode, the sound is very poor. When set to THX, the sound is better, but most of the music comes from the center speaker which is not up with the quality of my two front speakers. Your help appreciated.
The goal is to set my stereo mode on a separate program. Do I re-run MCACC in STEREO mode ?

Would you please let me know if its possible to only play the front right and left and have the sub come in at 80 Hz ?
Thanks Gents.

I would also like to leave my front speakers set to large so only the very low frequencies are directed to the sub.
Opinions please
Thanks
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post #247 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 09:06 PM
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You should be able to set your mains to large (usually it defaults to that).

What sound mode are you using when listening to music?

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #248 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexicon1 View Post

Hi
I have run MCACC for my system. For movies, the sound is "good". However, for music it sucks !
When checked, my full sized fronts are rated small, most of my music is coming out of the not so great center channel.
What I want is my full sized fronts R+L do ALL of the music and have only the Sub . I dont want center or rear surrounds
Ideally, I would like to have the sub kick in around 80 Hz.
On the existing SMALL setting for the front right and left, the music played from those speakers sound like the midrange and lower frequencies are missing.
Would you please let me know if its possible to only play the front right and left and have the sub come in at 80 Hz ?
Thanks Gents.

I would also like to leave my front speakers set to large so only the very low frequencies are directed to the sub.
Opinions please
Thanks

Speakers large, sub "plus", Stereo mode. Works for me


bob
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post #249 of 5544 Old 02-12-2009, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

To have a "flat" system, speakers are set at 75 db and the sub is set at 72-73 db. The pink tone from reciever for sub is different then the speakers. Try it, and you will hear a difference in the total output from the speakers. There is more detail in the speakers as they are now truly balanced.

Bill

Bull. If you like more "detail" than what MCACC gives you, by all means turn the sub down. If you want it flat, take what MCACC gives you.

Dennis H
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post #250 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

You should be able to set your mains to large (usually it defaults to that).

What sound mode are you using when listening to music?

Ive been using a THX mode for music, since "Stereo" mode sounded so awful.

Also, I am assuming that if my better Fronts are set to LARGE, for non-music (DVDs), that this will also sound better for movies. Yes ?
Anyone with experience here that can verify my guess ?
Thanks
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post #251 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Speakers large, sub "plus", Stereo mode. Works for me


bob

Bob, what about setting the Xover so that my large Front speakers only play until 80Hz and send the rest of the music to the sub?
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post #252 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexicon1 View Post

Ive been using a THX mode for music, since "Stereo" mode sounded so awful.

I use Pure Direct for my 2 channel music listening needs. Stereo modes are less than appealing for some reason, but Pure Direct sounds amazing!
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post #253 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Bull. If you like more "detail" than what MCACC gives you, by all means turn the sub down. If you want it flat, take what MCACC gives you.

MCACC does not give a flat setting. Flat is the sub set at 3 db below the speaker db using the reciever pink tones with a spl meter. That is what I said.

Bill
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post #254 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

MCACC does not give a flat setting. Flat is the sub set at 3 db below the speaker db using the reciever pink tones with a spl meter. That is what I said.

Bill

Bill

I'm not doubting you, just want to know what your source is for that info.

thx

bob
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post #255 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 02:27 PM
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Bill is correct. The receivers tests tones for the subwoofer are uncorrected and need correction (hence the 3db difference).
If you are using AVIA or Sound and Visions HTT, their tones are corrected already. So what you see on the SPL is what the true level SPL is

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post #256 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 02:33 PM
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Question on the speaker size. Stupid question really. I currently have Take 5 Sats, so basically they are small speakers. I am planning on getting new Fronts and Center, Def Tech PM1000's and PC2000 to be exact, in a couple of months. Now, those are almost twice the size of the Energy, so since there are only 2 settings, Large or Small, it's a guaranteed that it will set it to Small. The question I have is what is considered Large and Small?
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post #257 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDom View Post

Question on the speaker size. Stupid question really. I currently have Take 5 Sats, so basically they are small speakers. I am planning on getting new Fronts and Center, Def Tech PM1000's and PC2000 to be exact, in a couple of months. Now, those are almost twice the size of the Energy, so since there are only 2 settings, Large or Small, it's a guaranteed that it will set it to Small. The question I have is what is considered Large and Small?

IMHO, is if you have a subwoofer in your system, run ALL speakers "small" regardless of their size. Then use the receivers crossover. I use 80hz even though my mains and center are rated to 45hz in room.

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post #258 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 03:33 PM
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Does MCACC check speaker phase? I had a Sony that would tell me if any of my speakers were wired incorrectly. I have never received this message with MCACC. Perhaps they are wired correctly and I just don't get the message. I would like to know for sure however.

Perhaps I misremembered.

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post #259 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDom View Post

Question on the speaker size. Stupid question really. I currently have Take 5 Sats, so basically they are small speakers. I am planning on getting new Fronts and Center, Def Tech PM1000's and PC2000 to be exact, in a couple of months. Now, those are almost twice the size of the Energy, so since there are only 2 settings, Large or Small, it's a guaranteed that it will set it to Small. The question I have is what is considered Large and Small?

Most home theater speakers should be run as small. However if your speakers' dynamic range does not reach down to say 60Hz then you might benefit from raising your crossover to say 100hz for a more seamless transistion. It just depends on how steep the roll off is on the lower end of your surrounds.

BTW setting to SMALL just sends signal below the crossover to the sub, if you set to LARGE you are saying, my speakers handle bass better or as good as my sub........Which is rarely the case.

Here you go:
PM1000
Dimensions | Metric :6-1/4 W x 6-1/2 D x 10-7/8 H | 15.9 x 16.5 x 27.6 cm
Driver Complement :One 1" pure aluminum dome tweeter; One 5-1/4" BDSS bass/midrange drivers; One 5-1/4" pressure coupled bass radiator
Frequency Response :42 Hz - 30 kHz Good Range Below 60
Impedance :Compatible with 8 Ohms outputs
Sensitivity :91 dB
Recommended Associated Amplifier Power :10 - 200 watts
A/V Receiver Crossover Setting :80 Hz = Small Speaker Setting
Inputs :One pair of 5 way binding posts
Available Finishes :Gloss Black; Gloss White
Accessories :Two ¼ 20 insert cover plugs; Tripod base
Mounting Options :Vertically: On Shelf with included tripod base; Equipped with rear ¼ 20 sized thread to accommodate on wall/on ceiling mounting with aftermarket articulating mount (articulating mount not included); Equipped with bottom ¼ 20 sized thread to accommodate ProStand 1000 stand mounting (ProStand 1000 available separately); Equipped with keyhole mounting slot for flush mounting
Packaging :One to a carton
Weight | Metric :6.5 lbs | 2.9 kg
Warranty :5 Years

Don't waste time reading signatures.....
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post #260 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunDom View Post

Question on the speaker size. Stupid question really. I currently have Take 5 Sats, so basically they are small speakers. I am planning on getting new Fronts and Center, Def Tech PM1000's and PC2000 to be exact, in a couple of months. Now, those are almost twice the size of the Energy, so since there are only 2 settings, Large or Small, it's a guaranteed that it will set it to Small. The question I have is what is considered Large and Small?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

IMHO, is if you have a subwoofer in your system, run ALL speakers "small" regardless of their size. Then use the receivers crossover. I use 80hz even though my mains and center are rated to 45hz in room.

I agree with Gov, as do most experts (e.g. THX).

The definition of Large and Small has always been obscure. Large is sometimes translated as "full range," but there isn't total agreement on what that means either. Some say a Large speaker should be +/- 3d all the way down to 20Hz, but that would rule out almost all of them. I'd say speakers that are -3dB at <30Hz would be workable as Large, but there aren't many of those either.

According to a post I read recently, Audyssey sets speakers to Large if it detects full strength response below 80Hz (seems like a high cut off, but that's what was posted). Based on empirical evidence, MCACC seems to use 50-60Hz. It sets most fronts to Large (as it does for all of mine except the center). Most users manually change them to Small.

In any case, it's easier on the amplifier and reduces the chance of distortion if you stick to the Small with 80Hz crossover rule. It also insures you hear all the bass, even if some was mixed into the L/R channels that was too low for your mains to reproduce.
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post #261 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 05:18 PM
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Even with my Polk SDA SRS 2.3's I set them to small with a 100 hz crossover. With my dual 3.3's and MBM's the audio in my 6000 cu ft room is awesome. Did run the Polk's large but prefered small overall. I know that some of you will ask what is the diff between large and small with the bass on the Polks? Between large and small there is really no diff with bass except for some boomy sounding bass from the Polk's. The only reason that I run the Polk's small is so the bass below 100 hz gets EQ'd by the Anti Mode 8033 on the LFE side. Less boomy bass when running small main speakers.

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post #262 of 5544 Old 02-13-2009, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Bill is correct. The receivers tests tones for the subwoofer are uncorrected and need correction (hence the 3db difference).
If you are using AVIA or Sound and Visions HTT, their tones are corrected already. So what you see on the SPL is what the true level SPL is

That's all very interesting but it has nothing to do with MCACC. The 3dB thing is because the RS meter is C-weighted and rolls off the bass. MCACC doesn't use the RS meter and its mic isn't C-weighted so no 3dB correction is required.

Dennis H
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post #263 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 01:50 AM
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bsoko2 -- You are making an incorrect assumption that having a "flat" system means that the MCACC gain setting for the fronts and the sub should be the same. It's not the same because the sub's amplifier has it's own setting, which adds to the overall gain in the sub circuits. If you decrease the subs gain, before you run MCACC, then it will set the "reported" sub "gain" higher to give you a flat response.

Your sub=woofer has 2 amplifier circuits in series, the high level one in your AVR and the one in the amplifier that is internal to your sub. Most sub-woofer manufacturers recommend setting the subs gain control to 30% to 40% (or lower) of the dial range on the sub, before you run the AVR's auto-calibration (MCACC in the case of the Pioneer AVRs). Doing this will give you the best dynamic range for the sub-woofer amp, in general.

catapult -- Right on! The MCACC circuits have a response that is matched to the microphone that Pioneer supplies with their AVRs. The RS SPL meter has a response that is actually down by around 5dB at 20Hz. As you said, there is no relationship between the MCACC response curve and the one for the RS meter.

Gov -- AFIK, the AVIA test tones are not corrected for the RS SPL meter, (at least my copy sure isn't), but I don't know what they are "corrected" for, since they don't tell you. I have no info on the S&V disc. The only audio test disc that has both flat test tones and ones corrected for the RS SPL meter is the Rives Audio Test CD 2. When I run it to check my MCACC settings, I get very close to a flat response (at least within the accuracy of the RS meter).
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post #264 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 03:21 AM
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Claus - There is a lot of info on the net about using a spl meter to dial in your speakers and sub to have a flat system. So this method is incorrect?

Bill
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post #265 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 04:42 AM
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I re-ran MCACC yesterday and still have the speaker hum only while running MCACC. I did the old reach-round on the back of the receiver to do some wire jiggling to see if there was any AC pick up but no amount of wire re-positioning even changed the tone. I turned off the subs, no effect. I guess I'll try a ground loop filter. Any other suggestions or insight?

Having 6 MCACC sets is a superb tool for A/B evaluating the discussion going on about large-small speakers & xover settings. I let MCACC do its own thing on one set, I set my speakers small on another and then large, different xover sttings, etc. and then re-run MCACC with keep speaker settings. I can then re-play some tracks and subjectively evaluate the results.

I'm an Audyssey admirer from other AVRs but the ability to see and hear what's happening, the ability to pick up on and correct speaker placement and room characteristics by evaluating the individual speaker results and being able to A/B with a few remote clicks makes MCACC a superb differential tool.

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints.
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post #266 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Claus - There is a lot of info on the net about using a spl meter to dial in your speakers and sub to have a flat system. So this method is incorrect?

Bill

Yes, 75db for the mains 72/73db for the sub. It has been beaten in all of our heads for years.

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post #267 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Yes, 75db for the mains 72/73db for the sub. It has been beaten in all of our heads for years.

Claus has given us a in depth explanation of MCACC and how it sets the speakers. Using a spl meter is one more step further for the individual to set the speakers manually. As far as the sub, yes manufacturers recomend the 9:00 setting on the gain for calibrating with the reciever, then once the receiever has donw it's thing, you further setup the sub with a spl meter to tweak it. Does anybody feel that this is correct?

Bill
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post #268 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 04:48 PM
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Yep, I've found not everybody is happy with Auto-EQ of *any* type.

That's a BIG reason why I much prefer MCACC over Audyssey based receivers.

Why Pioneer and MCACC over Audyssey equipped receivers like Onkyo and Denon? Here's why:

On the Audyssey equipped system, you can run an Audyssey EQ setup to provide room & speaker calibration using Audyssey filters which provide much higher resolution than a simple EQ. Of course, there are plenty of complaints on the Audyssey thread and elsewhere from people stating that Audyssey isn't getting things right... too much bass, or too little, or too much high-end roll-off, etc. Well, fortunately, to make adjustments for that, you can switch to manual, and tweak your settings with 5 or 7 bands of EQ, sometimes 9 bands as with a 1909, so you can imagine I was pretty excited about the possibilities. I like to tune the EQ when listening to different content/sources, so this would be the best combination of auto room correction combined with my manual EQ tweaks. Heaven right? Unfortunately, NO!! The devil is in the details, and you can verify what I'm about to say from the Denon 1909 manual among others (even in the Audyssey & Denon 1909 threads, and the Audyssey FAQ.) If I was to do what I just told you, and tweak the EQ setting to my tastes or depending on the content, I would LOSE all Audyssey filters, calibrations, and correction, along with losing Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Audyssey Dynamic Volume capabilities when using a manually tweaked EQ. All you are left with is a basic graphic EQ which provides no room correction and will not address issues in the time domain. Why is that you ask? Because you must switch from Audyssey mode to Manual mode to make ANY EQ adjustment. Suddenly, hundreds of time domain Audyssey correction filters lost! And as if that wasn't bad enough, you cannot configure more than one custom EQ preset, so if you want to change it, you have to go into setup, and change it manually for each and every channel/speaker. Again, you will lose all Audyssey capabilities and will not have Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Audyssey Dynamic Volume capabilities by making any changes to the EQ. OK, so you decide you will leave Audyssey EQ set rather than making your preferred EQ tweak, because you want the Audyssey room & speaker calibration, Dynamic EQ, and Dynamic Volume capabilities, and you decide you will just use bass/treble controls to adjust the tone to your preference. Another big problem here. Not only does this limit your tweaking to a couple broad frequency ranges, but if you are using Audyssey Dynamic EQ, you can NOT adjust the tone controls either! You will run into the same limitations on other receivers with Audyssey outside of high end stuff using the expensive Audyssey Pro kit and license, which still doesn't make it quick and easy to tweak your EQ curves. Audyssey doesn't want you to be able to tweak the EQ/tone to the content, your hearing, or your tastes.

Compare that to the Pioneer 1018, or the VSX-01TXH. The Pioneer lets you run MCACC on your room environment as a starting point, and then make tweaks to the MCACC settings using 9 bands of EQ, and save this to a an MCACC preset. Not just 1, but 6 MCACC/EQ presets that you can preconfigure! And you can switch between the 6 presets quickly during playback as desired. Unlike Audyssey equipped systems, you still retain your full MCACC calibration & room correction in the time domain. You do not lose functionality of the DRC (Dynamic Range Compression), mightnight, dialogue enhancement, Auto Level Control, THX Loudness Plus, or what have you. Of course, you still have phase control, standing wave control, bass management, etc as well. And from what I understand, the tone controls are still available, although manually tweaking the EQ is much more precise anyway. So if you like to control or tweak your sound, even if just a little bit, in addition to the automatic room & speaker calibration, environmental acoustic correction in the time domain, and without losing other functionality on your receiver, you are much better off with Pioneer and MCACC. Pioneer VSX-1018 and all of the current Elite models are the only ones that handle this the way the tweakers prefer and lets you have the "final" word on how it sounds after all the auto room EQ & calibration has run. Now, finally a match made in heaven.

Now I can just kick back and relax to some great calibrated & tweaked audio just to my liking
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post #269 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 06:17 PM
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Okay, I'm relocating the RS (right Surround) a lot closer to the couch so the distance from the optimal listening point will be equal with the LS. Now... when I first setup my Sub over 9 years ago, all the diagram said was to make sure that the Low Pass Filter is at 80 hz and Volume at 7, then adjust down on the Filter accordingly to taste. It seems like the lowest frequency is at 50Hz. Should keep the setting at it's lowest and the Volume at 7 when I setup MCACC?
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post #270 of 5544 Old 02-14-2009, 11:05 PM
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bsoko2 -- IMHO, that is correct. However, you have to know that, whatever source you use for doing the manual setup, it is flat from at least 20Hz to 20KHz and that you are using a correct response curve (or correction table) for the SPL meter that you are using. It is my recollection that the AVIA test tones are not that accurate in the low frequencies, but the SD-DVD version of DVE is more accurate (I cannot prove this).

For the Radio Shack SPL meter correction tables, see this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=505236.

The low frequency end is given here: http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs-rscomp.cfm.

Here is the general AVS thread on manual speaker system calibration: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554.

Here is a link to Clint DeBoer's article on sub-woofer calibration: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...udio-test-cd-2. I have the tools that Clint talks about, and I have found that the results that the MCACC, on my VSX-1014, gives me are very close to what the manual testing provides. I haven't gotten my newer VSX-92TXH set up yet, so I have no data on the newer MCACC version results.

BTW, I have a 20 year old Velodyne UDL-15 sub (flat to 18Hz), a pair of 30+ year old JBL L96 semi-pro mains (re-coned woofers), a new Klipsch RC-62 center, and some inexpensive Radio Shack Optimus LX-5 (Lineaum) surrounds (they were real sleepers when they came out - thanks to an AVS member). It's a real mix (and not ideal), but they work quite well together when set up correctly.

GunDom -- For most speaker systems, setting the LFE crossover to 80Hz is recommended and setting all the speakers to small. The exceptions are when the main L/R speakers can't reproduce audio signals that are flat to below 80Hz (like most that have "woofers" that are 5" or smaller), or when the main speakers are flat to well below 45Hz. In the first case, the LFE will have to be set higher (like 100Hz or even 120Hz). In the latter case, going to 60Hz may sound better.

All you have to do is to run the Automatic version of MCACC. It will do your setup for you. The only thing you need to do, after MCACC completes its calibration, is to reset all of your speakers to "Small" (see below). Be sure to read your Pioneer manual (in section 02 - "5 Minute Guide") on how to run the MCACC before you start, so that you are doing it correctly (like turning off all noise sources, and positioning the, included, microphone correctly).

In some Pioneer AVR's (most, AFIK) the MCACC will automatically set the mains to large (for its calibration run), and will not reset them after it's done. Therefore, that will have to be done manually (per the manual).

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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