"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 94 - AVS Forum
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post #2791 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

because it almost always produces lumpy ugly response... which can sometimes be interpretedby the user as "better" because, man, do those peaks stand out... of course, they aren't hearing the nulls...

Yeah, maybe the better thing to do if you like bass and want it to stand out is just turn up your sub more and eq the mains up a notch down low. That way you don't have them fighting each other and creating nulls but you still get the bass you like to hear.
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post #2792 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 08:38 AM
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^^^

yea... increase the spl from the sub... leave speakers small... want even "better" bass? try movng sub to different positions in the room. get some type of sub eq (the antimode 8033 is a set it and forget it tool thatnworks very well)... even better, add another sub...

a worthwhile investment for those who want to "see" what is happening is the ominimic kit from parts express...

- chris

 

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post #2793 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

because it almost always produces lumpy ugly response... which can sometimes be interpretedby the user as "better" because, man, do those peaks stand out... of course, they aren't hearing the nulls...

MCACC does full-band phase correction. Besides, when I'm watching a movie, what matters more, the SPL meter reading or what my ears hear.

I swear some of you guys need to put down your meters and enjoy your setups a bit more.
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post #2794 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:23 AM
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^^^

learn, or don't learn... that is entirely up to you...

- chris

 

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post #2795 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofart View Post

I used to follow the advice of setting my speakers to 'small', despite MCACC's detecting them as large, until I actually gave 'large' a try. My rears and surr. rears can reproduce down to 60-70Hz quite well.

With the speakers set to large, while watching movies, I'm noticing more bass coming from behind. In the Cars 2 movie, when the huge dump truck 'burps' on McQueen and Mater, the burp starts from the rear. With 'large' the effect is awesome. With 'small' it sounds ordinary.

So now I leave my speakers to 'large' and set the sub to Plus. It's what works for me.

If your mains can only play down to 60-70hz and they are set to Large, you're missing a lot of bass information below this point because it's not being accurately produced by speakers that can't play that low. You might think it sounds better because of the increased mid range.

Think about it...if a 20hz bomb blast is sent to a speaker that can only play down to 70hz, what do you think happens? The speaker will distort or drop the information altogether. It's not redirected to your sub which is designed specifically for low frequencies.

Set your system up any way you like though. I'm just telling you what you are missing.
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post #2796 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:38 AM
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It's not a question of learning. I believe you. But there's no arguing with personal preference. The blanket statement that everyone should set their speakers to "small" and that every other setting is wrong is just, IMO, elitist garbage. Despite everything I've learned from this forum (and for that I am greatful), I've tried out a bunch of different settings and FOR ME, speakers set to "large" with sub set to "plus" is what I like best -- no matter how wrong you think it is.
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post #2797 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

If your mains can only play down to 60-70hz and they are set to Large, you're missing a lot of bass information below this point because it's not being accurately produced by speakers that can't play that low. You might think it sounds better because of the increased mid range.

Think about it...if a 20hz bomb blast is sent to a speaker that can only play down to 70hz, what do you think happens? The speaker will distort or drop the information altogether. It's not redirected to your sub which is designed specifically for low frequencies.

Set your system up any way you like though. I'm just telling you what you are missing.

I thought if you set your sub to Plus it will still play just the same as if you set your mains to small. The only difference is that your mains also get that same frequency sent to it as your sub does (no crossover between them).
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post #2798 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

If your mains can only play down to 60-70hz (snip)

That 20Hz bomb is likely encoded on the LFE, which will come out of my sub no matter what I set my speakers to. My crossover is set to 80Hz, which is still higher than my 60Hz rears.
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post #2799 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by toofart View Post

That 20Hz bomb is likely encoded on the LFE, which will come out of my sub no matter what I set my speakers to. My crossover is set to 80Hz, which is still higher than my 60Hz rears.

You obviously don't understand what these settings mean. If the speakers are set to Large, there is no crossover engaged. Your speakers are getting the full frequency range down to 20hz. Changing the crossover will make no difference. The crossover is only enabled for speakers set to small.
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post #2800 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by millerrh View Post

I thought if you set your sub to Plus it will still play just the same as if you set your mains to small. The only difference is that your mains also get that same frequency sent to it as your sub does (no crossover between them).

Yes but listen to what ccotenj says. The PLUS setting almost always does more harm than good and it can create bass cancelation issues.
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post #2801 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

You obviously don't understand what these settings mean.

I've re-read the manual, and you are right. If all my speakers are set to LARGE then the crossover setting is "the cutoff for bass sounds in the LFE".

My point is that the 20Hz bomb you referred to is encoded in the LFE, where it is sent to my sub, so I'm trying to understand what sounds I am "missing" as it has been stated. Is there lots of <60Hz content encoded in the rear speakers of lots of movies?
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post #2802 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

learn, or don't learn... that is entirely up to you...

ccotenj knows what he is talking about. There is a lot of good free advice on these forums and you can tell who knows their stuff. Look at the number of their posts and if it is high, they have been here a long time and know what they are talking about. If you have the SC-57 and want to tweak the bass, then get the iControlAV2 app for the iPad and use the "Emphasis" section for bass. Tweaking that really helps dial in the bass output.

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post #2803 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Yes but listen to what ccotenj says. The PLUS setting almost always does more harm than good and it can create bass cancelation issues.

Yes, definitely understand it is not desirable and will do more harm than good, I was just trying to lay out what is happening in the receiver, not saying whether it was bad or good. Just where the different frequencies are going.
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post #2804 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by toofart View Post

I've re-read the manual, and you are right. If all my speakers are set to LARGE then the crossover setting is "the cutoff for bass sounds in the LFE".

My point is that the 20Hz bomb you referred to is encoded in the LFE, where it is sent to my sub, so I'm trying to understand what sounds I am "missing" as it has been stated. Is there lots of <60Hz content encoded in the rear speakers of lots of movies?

No problem. We are all here to learn and share our experiences. Perhaps this quote from Dolby will help.

LFE does not equal subwoofer. Dolby Digital programs may include a bass-only LFE channel, but this channel does not correspond directly to a subwoofer output. It is possible for a program to contain an LFE channel, but a decoder may provide no subwoofer output because all of the bass information in the program, including the LFE channel, can be reproduced by the main speakers. The opposite is also true: it is possible for a program to not contain an LFE channel, yet a decoder may provide a subwoofer output because some or all of the main speakers are unable to reproduce the bass information in the program. The difference between the LFE channel and the subwoofer output is that the LFE channel is used to carry additional bass information in the Dolby Digital program while the subwoofer output represents how some or all of the bass information will be reproduced.
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In the speaker menu, I have selected:

Yes for subwoofer

Large set for speakers

80 Hz set for crossover

Does the xover work the same for both Large and Small settings? If not, what does the xover do while in Large?

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post #2806 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

In the speaker menu, I have selected:

Yes for subwoofer

Large set for speakers

80 Hz set for crossover

If the xover is set for 100hz or higher, more bass is output from the subwoofers. Why is this xover inplace when full range speakers set to large?

My understanding is that anything above your crossover won't be sent to the sub and relies strictly on your speakers.
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post #2807 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

In the speaker menu, I have selected:

Yes for subwoofer

Large set for speakers

80 Hz set for crossover

Does the xover work the same for both Large and Small settings? If not, what does the xover do while in Large?

when sub is set to "yes"....

full range goes to speakers set to large... none of that gets sent to the sub...

anything above the xover (and a bit more, xovers aren't brick walls) goes to speakers set to small... the "remainder" gets summed with the lfe channel (the .1 part) and sent to the sub...

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post #2808 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

when sub is set to "yes"....

full range goes to speakers set to large... none of that gets sent to the sub...

anything above the xover (and a bit more, xovers aren't brick walls) goes to speakers set to small... the "remainder" gets summed with the lfe channel (the .1 part) and sent to the sub...

Why does full range have a xover that can be changed in the menu?

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post #2809 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Why does full range have a xover that can be changed in the menu?

In theory it should be grayed out as everyones understanding is crossover has no meaning when speakers are set to Large.
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post #2810 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by iafzal View Post

In theory it should be grayed out as everyones understanding is crossover has no meaning when speakers are set to Large.

I have the SC-57 and when I up the xover when the speakers are large, the bass increases via the subwofer. So the xover must do something.

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post #2811 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 07:06 PM
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^^^

are ALL of your speakers set to large? are you set to "plus" (or whatever calls sub+main these days)...

because the behaviour you are describing isn't physically possible...

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post #2812 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 07:16 PM
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Using the plus feature with the subwoofer will give you more bass. If you are doing this all the time, run MCACC with that setting to help control cancellation, phase and standing wave issues. The plus setting, allows bass sounds from the center and front speakers to be outputted via the subwoofer. Also, this allows for continuous bass out put from the subwoofer. The X/O allow frequencies below the setting to be routed to the subwoofer and speakers set to large. Setting the X/O to 80 for example with the front speakers set to Large means that the subwoofer and larger speakers get the full range of bass frequencies. The small speaker send the frequencies below the X/O to the Large speakers or subwoofer. If you notice a change when the x/o is raised to 100, this from the increase prescence in the low bass and midrange in the other speakers, that is a tonal change in the relationship between the speakers. This can result in a louder bass response.

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^^^
some right, some wrong... if no one else picks up on it by tomorrow, further commentary then...

- chris

 

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post #2814 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 09:24 PM
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SW - LFE signals and bass frequencies of channels
set to SMALL are output from the subwoofer when
YES is selected. Choose the PLUS setting if you want
the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or
you want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that
would normally come out the front and center
speakers are also routed to the subwoofer).
2
If you did
not connect a subwoofer choose NO (the bass
frequencies are output from other speakers).
3 Select X. OVER' and set the crossover frequency.
3
Frequencies below this point will be sent to the
subwoofer (or LARGE speakers).
4 When you're finished, press RETURN.
You will return to the Manual SP Setup menu.

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post #2815 of 5569 Old 01-09-2012, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

SW - LFE signals and bass frequencies of channels
set to SMALL are output from the subwoofer when
YES is selected. Choose the PLUS setting if you want
the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or
you want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that
would normally come out the front and center
speakers are also routed to the subwoofer).
2
If you did
not connect a subwoofer choose NO (the bass
frequencies are output from other speakers).
3 Select X. OVER' and set the crossover frequency.
3
Frequencies below this point will be sent to the
subwoofer (or LARGE speakers).
4 When you're finished, press RETURN.
You will return to the Manual SP Setup menu.

That's for the SC-35.

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post #2816 of 5569 Old 01-10-2012, 03:07 AM
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yes, the portion of the page is from the SC 35 page 116.

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post #2817 of 5569 Old 01-10-2012, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Using the plus feature with the subwoofer will give you more bass. If you are doing this all the time, run MCACC with that setting to help control cancellation, phase and standing wave issues. The plus setting, allows bass sounds from the center and front speakers to be outputted via the subwoofer. Also, this allows for continuous bass out put from the subwoofer. The X/O allow frequencies below the setting to be routed to the subwoofer and speakers set to large. Setting the X/O to 80 for example with the front speakers set to Large means that the subwoofer and larger speakers get the full range of bass frequencies. The small speaker send the frequencies below the X/O to the Large speakers or subwoofer. If you notice a change when the x/o is raised to 100, this from the increase prescence in the low bass and midrange in the other speakers, that is a tonal change in the relationship between the speakers. This can result in a louder bass response.

MCACC cannot control bass cancellation issues if you select PLUS. Use some common sense. When you run Full Auto MCACC and look at the results, is the PLUS feature ever selected? No, it's not because it's not an accurate reproduction of bass. If you want louder reproduction of bass, turrn up the trim for your sub.
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post #2818 of 5569 Old 01-10-2012, 05:59 AM
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^^^

bingo...

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post #2819 of 5569 Old 01-10-2012, 08:21 AM
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Got an answer from Pioneer support in that the xover is active and can be set for both small and large settings.

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post #2820 of 5569 Old 01-10-2012, 08:42 AM
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^^^

the support person is wrong... otherwise, bass management would be SEVERELY broken...

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