"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 98 - AVS Forum
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post #2911 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Are you setting fronts to Large? 'cause it looks that way since MCACC does nothing to EQ subs.

I can understand the bump, if you set fronts to Large and MCACC boosted the 63 Hz output, since we don't know the Q value MCACC uses, boosted 63 could very well effect 1 octave less & below. also, the standing wave filters have an effect. You might try comparing measurements with standing wave filter on & off. See which one is "smoother".

Oddly enough, no everything is set to small, 80hz crossover.
It is repeatable, when I turn off mcacc, bass response looks like the first pic, with it on, it looks like the second. It always humps it way up with it on. Overall, I'm pretty happy - I do rather like bass in my movies, so the bump is actually enjoyable. And music has so little down there that it hasn't been an issue based on my watching last night.

Very fun to measure and tweak - if anyone hasn't gotten a room measurement software I highly recommend it. I use XTZ, but REW, Omnimic or whatever would do the same. It helped me a bunch in moving my speakers and toe in for optimal position.
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post #2912 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

@jparker36: The LF hump is below what MCACC EQs and is probably a room mode. I agree with Steve's take on the reason for the increase. It also looks like there's a bit of a double-hump going on around 63 Hz; it's possible MCACC dropped the 63 Hz band, leaving the sub level or perhaps boosting slightly, and allowed the 30 Hz mode to become more prominant. Can you run the "before" plots unsmoothed, or with much finer resolution? Perhaps there's a dip where MCACC senses sub level.

IIRC, it did drop 63hz. I will try adjusting it back up when I get home. It also is boosting the sub, though I lowered it a bit. I'll reset speaker levels tonight and try it again.
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post #2913 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 10:22 AM
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After reading the posts for the last couple days...I'm (your description here) but I have a couple comments now that the dust seems to be settling

I've learned a lot from this thread and can't believe how much better my system sounds after learning how to get around MCACC. What's been posted the past couple days alone has been extremely valuable and thought it would be great if someone could summarize that information within a single post so others can better understand and properly set up their system.

I also think some of you need to have a group hug!

I'd join in but my head still hurts
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post #2914 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

What's been posted the past couple days alone has been extremely valuable and thought it would be great if someone could summarize that information within a single post so others can better understand and properly set up their system.

Agreed. That stuff was "TLDR."
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post #2915 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 11:04 AM
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I wanted to get thoughts on running MACC and setup
Pio 1021
Athena F2's - Front
Athena B1 Center
Energy Take classic - Rears
BIC F12 sub

Due to the high crossover of the rears I have been setting the speakers to small, 100 for crossover and then bumping up the DB level of the rears after MACC has ran since they are not really heard after the MACC calibration.

Is this probably my best option or should I look to be doing other things?
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post #2916 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

What's been posted the past couple days alone has been extremely valuable

Asking questions and challenging status quo is always a Good Thing. I'll reiterate that while I appreciate the knowledge of this forum, no one knows everything, everyone learns something, and expecting people to just swallow "do it this way" without response is absurd.
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post #2917 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

After reading the posts for the last couple days...I'm (your description here) but I have a couple comments now that the dust seems to be settling

I've learned a lot from this thread and can't believe how much better my system sounds after learning how to get around MCACC. What's been posted the past couple days alone has been extremely valuable and thought it would be great if someone could summarize that information within a single post so others can better understand and properly set up their system.

I also think some of you need to have a group hug!

I'd join in but my head still hurts

I will "opt out" of the summary. I only offered up my info to show that there are options, and some that these days the average consumer may be unaware of.

I will still post my experimental results later as I described above.

Kindest Regards,

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post #2918 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRAW View Post

Agreed. That stuff was "TLDR."



Some of us have a tendency to write too long posts - guilty as charged
It's not intuitively obvious or an EZ topic to distill into short descriptions. You should try to read all the stuff just on Audioholics about bass mgmt, give you a headache and its not all EZ to comprehend.

That's why manuals are a mess, not just Pioneer's. Some of the best & concise ones I've found on describing bass mgmt & Xovers are Anthem & Lexicon.

Steve
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post #2919 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post

I will "opt out" of the summary. I only offered up my info to show that there are options, and some that these days the average consumer may be unaware of.

I will still post my experimental results later as I described above.

I also believe there were a few points being made throughout the last few days.
Large vs. Small
In-line sub vs. Sub out
Bass Management theory

One person might best be able to summarize one of the points they know best, but there will always be disagreements because things can be done different ways. My guess is if someone does try to summarize it, they'll then be attacked about how wrong they are and then the whole process will probably repeat itself again

I think for bass management theory (and large vs. small speaker settings) the PDF from Dolby posted a few threads ago does a good job explaining it. Combine that with your receiver manual, and you have a pretty good couple of resources that seemed to answer all my questions for me.
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post #2920 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post

I will still post my experimental results later as I described above.

that would be a welcome addition

some may learn from what you find. At least that's why I bother to post some of my own results & comparisons in Pioneer & recently the AS-EQ1 thread. We are all here to learn something that may improve what we have.

Steve
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post #2921 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerrh View Post

My guess is if someone does try to summarize it, they'll then be attacked about how wrong they are and then the whole process will probably repeat itself again

best to let sleeping dogs lie

this AM I even found a statement on Audioholics that seems to contradict other statements, including from Dolby, about LFE being a separate dedicated track as distinguished from what's sent to the sub

imagine....a contradictory statement. Technical writing can be a bitch!

Steve
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post #2922 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 08:54 PM
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I posted this in the vsx-1019 thread, but got no answers, hopefully someone here can weigh in:

1 - Can anyone tell me if the vsx-919 has updated firmware ? The website doesn't indicate anything, but I've read somewhere that there is firmware to fix issues with the OSD and ipod integration (it doesn't work for me usually).

2 - My crossover settings only allow for 80hz and then 50hz. I'd like to cross over at 60hz for my center channel and 40hz for my right and left. Is there a way to get individual control ?

3 - MCACC is setting my right and left speakers to -10db when doing the db/spl leveling of the channels. Is -10 the lower limit ? I'm using Klipsch RF3's and I'm curious if they're efficient enough that maybe mcacc cant pull them back down enough to match the center (rc3).
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post #2923 of 5582 Old 01-11-2012, 09:00 PM
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Another question:

If I take some pictures of the MCACC PRO EQ room measurements, can they be analyzed in the fashion that some people analyze REW waterfall screenshots ? The REW stuff is beyond what I am capable of producing without a mic, mic stand, a lot of time and I can't really go that loud as I live in a condo. The few minutes it takes to run mcacc is long enough.
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post #2924 of 5582 Old 01-12-2012, 01:02 AM
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Mirage Speakers (5.1):
OS³-FS Floorstanding Speaker x2
OMD-C1 Center Speaker (replaced OS³-CC 1-2012)
Omnisat as satellites x2
Omni S10 subwoofer
Pioneer Elite SC 05


I changed my Center Speaker from Mirage OS3-CC to Mirage OMD-C1
(Detailed in my Tweeter failed 4X this year! post) New Center Sp. position approx. 7 inches FW, closer to me & 6 inches lower.


I reran MCACC. All speakers except Center are in exact same positions as always.


Old Full Auto MCACC settings:

L = +3.0 dB
C = +4.0 dB
R = +3.5 dB
SR = +1.5 dB
SL = +1.5 dB
SW = -1.0 dB

Had run this 6x or so over the years & results always the same with maybe 0.5dB difference on a few speakers. Some times C = +4.0 & sometimes = +3.5 for example. Distance measures remarkably consistent as well. Always sounded great to me.

I had also tested the relative volume of each speaker with SPL meter using pink noise from my DVE BD. Set volume to 0 dB b4 ran SPL test:
L=68
C=68.4
R=68.3
SR=65.4
SL=66.6

While my speakers did not put out 75dB as expected, they were close in volume except the surrounds. The SR does have a large lampshade between mic & speaker. I had done the MCACC setup with the mic on top of the headrest of my cloth recliner.
After reading all 98 pages of this thread & other info on MCACC, I decided to get fancier when I reran MCACC with the new speaker in place. I used a tripod with a yardstick taped to the top & was able to set the mic closer to my head position. Now the mic is a few inches closer to the front speakers & an inch or two lower. The back of the recliner does not get in the way of line of sight between mic & any speaker. The new mic position is aprox. where the top of my head would be when reclining 1/2 way. Cannot get it more exact since I cannot recline the recliner part way with me not in it I do extend the foot rest.

I saved my old MCACC to M6 & ran full Auto & saved to M5. Then ran it again & saved to M4. Next, I ran Auto MCACC selecting Keep SP settings' with Symmetry, All Channel Adjust & Front Align respectively saved to; M1, M2 & M3. So, I basically had 4 different, new MCACC settings to compare while listening to a BD movie. (Chose the concert & fight scene from Fifth Element) M1, M2, M3 & M4. (M6 doesn't apply since it was with old speaker & M5 may have an erroneous R Speaker setting.) I like all of these setting & am not sure what exactly I s/b listening for.

When I selected Keep Speaker settings I thought I was keeping; all speakers set to small, 5.1 system & crossover = 80. Nothing else. Yet, the ch levels & distances were identical for M1, 2 & 3. In fact, the only difference was the SubW distance was 2 inches different compared to my Full Auto M4.



Question #1) Is the All Channel Adjust (M2) the same as running Full Auto?

Question #2) Are sound differences between the Symmetry, All Channel Adjust & Front Align solely due to different EQ, standing wave, & group delay?


Question #3) I've seen people discuss EQ using numbers, ex. I raised the level by 2dB for 16kHz', yet my MCACC data check does NOT have a scale. I can only estimate for ex., 16kHz is boosted 1/3 of the way up from center level.' I do not have a PC laptop that I can use near the AVR for the advanced MCACC program software. This makes it very difficult for me to compare the the different memory settings I have for EQ. I won't even try to compare standing wave or group delay. I have no basis for changing the delay since it sounds very good to me.

My 1st MCACC Full Auto with new speaker (M5):


L = +1.5 dB !
C = +0.5 dB
R = +4.5 dB
SR = +3.0 dB
SL = +2.0 dB
SW = -0.5 dB



My 2nd MCACC full auto with new speaker (M4):


L = +3.5 dB
C = +0.5 dB
R = +4.5 dB
SR = +3.0 dB
SL = +2.0 dB
SW = -0.5 dB


Symmetry, All Channel Adjust & Front Align (M1, M2 & M3) all have the same Sp volumes:


L = +3.5 dB
C = +0.5 dB
R = +4.5 dB
SR = +3.0 dB
SL = +2.0 dB
SW = -0.5 dB

I'm thinking my 1st time Full Auto is an error for the L speaker (= +1.5) since 2nd Full Auto & the advanced MCACC have the same results with L= +3.5.

I'm leaning towards using the full auto setting since they all sound good & I believe that people use the different advanced adjustments because they are dissatisfied with some aspect of the sound using full auto.


Next, Using M4, I tested the relative volume of each speaker with SPL meter using pink noise & volume at 0 dB (Ran this test many times):

L=66.7
C=67.9
R=68.4
SR= varies ea test, ave = 66.5
SL= varies ea test, ave = 66.5


I may be pointing the SPL meter slightly differently at the surrounds ea test, not sure why the variability. L,C & R only vary a few tenths difference ea test.

I'm also considering manually dropping the L Sp level by 1dB to = the R speaker & possibly dropping the C sp. by 0.5 dB. Then running the SPL test to see if L,R & C are much closer in volume.

Question #4) I'm confused as to why my R speaker is being set 1dB higher than L, where in the past they were always = or maybe 0.5dB different & the room has not changed & the L&R position remains the same. Maybe it is due to the mic on the tripod/yardstick?

Thanks for reading this long post.

Great, informative thread!
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post #2925 of 5582 Old 01-12-2012, 03:45 AM
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Are you mounting your SPL meter in the same place as your MCACC mic when measuring your speaker levels? If you are moving the SPL meter (quote " I may be pointing the SPL meter differently at the surrounds each test") that may be the problem. I would mount the SPL meter so that the mic is in the same position as the MCACC mic (listening position, ear level) with the mic pointing up just like the MCACC mic and see if you get the same results.

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post #2926 of 5582 Old 01-12-2012, 07:12 PM
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SRussel,

Good idea to mount SPL on a tripod. I'd do it if I could figure out a way. The reason I used the yardstick taped to the tripod rather than just the tripod for the Pioneer MCACC mic is that a tripod sitting on the chair is not near where my head is. It is at least a foot too far FW. Also, while I have read suggestions to point the SPL mic upwards, the instructions for the SPL state to point at the source. I assume the pioneer MCACC mic is omnidirectional, I don't know if that is true for the SPL mic. I've also read people's suggestions to point towards the front but on a 45 degree upwards angle, again not as per the manual.

I did try to point upwards vs. right at a speaker when 1st got SPL meter to see what difference it made & saw none. I am sure I am getting good, repeatable readings for my L, C & R speakers.

Hopefully, others will comment & maybe answer my 3 questions.

Thanks!
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post #2927 of 5582 Old 01-12-2012, 10:06 PM
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Hi All-

I just ran mcacc on my 1121 for the first time. The SQ is amazing but I'm having a common problem in two different instances:

On certain cable channels, as well as any blu ray on my ps3 slim, the dialog track drops from my 5.1 system. In essence, I have great sound, but the dialog between characters (what is normally played on the center channel) drops out and you can't hear any dialog unless I switch from auto/optimum to ext stereo. On most cable channels, the sound is great and I have no issues with auto/optimum.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
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post #2928 of 5582 Old 01-12-2012, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdcrack View Post

SRussel,

Good idea to mount SPL on a tripod. I'd do it if I could figure out a way. The reason I used the yardstick taped to the tripod rather than just the tripod for the Pioneer MCACC mic is that a tripod sitting on the chair is not near where my head is. It is at least a foot too far FW. Also, while I have read suggestions to point the SPL mic upwards, the instructions for the SPL state to point at the source. I assume the pioneer MCACC mic is omnidirectional, I don't know if that is true for the SPL mic. I've also read people's suggestions to point towards the front but on a 45 degree upwards angle, again not as per the manual.

I did try to point upwards vs. right at a speaker when 1st got SPL meter to see what difference it made & saw none. I am sure I am getting good, repeatable readings for my L, C & R speakers.

Hopefully, others will comment & maybe answer my 3 questions.

Thanks!

Get a mic tripod from Parts Express for 30 or so bucks. That way you can use the mic boom to get the mic exactly where you want it.
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post #2929 of 5582 Old 01-13-2012, 12:13 AM
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That is pretty low, but it depends on the other speakers in the system. I have an all Klipsch system and my towers are a -4. Actually, all my speakers are in the minus range. If it sounds good to you keep it there. Speaker location and room conditions can influence the final MCACC settings. Now I am curious about the channel level adjustment range. It may be -12 up to +10, but I am not sure and never checked. I do know the volume level can go up to +12, but that was not Jonathanc's question. I am sure others will chime in with the right answers.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
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post #2930 of 5582 Old 01-13-2012, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRussell View Post

Are you mounting your SPL meter in the same place as your MCACC mic when measuring your speaker levels? If you are moving the SPL meter (quote " I may be pointing the SPL meter differently at the surrounds each test") that may be the problem. I would mount the SPL meter so that the mic is in the same position as the MCACC mic (listening position, ear level) with the mic pointing up just like the MCACC mic and see if you get the same results.

This is why you don't want to drive yourself too crazy. I've used REW in a family room setting, and moving the mic just a foot to either side makes a DRAMATIC difference in readings. There is a way of using MCACC to average 3 readings, but I don't have any experience with that.

Downloadable FREE demo discs:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/de...ently-authored 

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2931 of 5582 Old 01-13-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

This is why you don't want to drive yourself too crazy. I've used REW in a family room setting, and moving the mic just a foot to either side makes a DRAMATIC difference in readings. There is a way of using MCACC to average 3 readings, but I don't have any experience with that.

Too late re driving myself crazy

My inconsistency in holding the SPL mic pointed towards the surrounds is only a matter of inches. I stand behind my recliner & rest my wrist on the head rest where my head would be. I pivot the mic so it points exactly at L, C & R speakers. I even have squatted down to line up the mic to point at the same spot on R & L speaker just below the tweeter. I get very consistent results. For the SR & SL, I need to point to the side & a lampshade blocks my view to the SR if I squat down & attempt to line it up. It's not as bad as I'm making it sound & is in no way a major issue for me. I think the MCACC has done a great job with my Surrounds. I really had those 3 main (unanswered) questions & also welcome comments re the speaker levels with the various MCACC settings, what specifically I s/b listening for, etc.

I know some people -- after Full Auto MCACC -- complain that there is not enough bass or the sound is too bright or dialog is muffled & then discussions get into fine tuning MCACC, room treatments, etc. As I cycled through the memory positions I like all the settings except MCCC off.
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post #2932 of 5582 Old 01-13-2012, 10:12 AM
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I did Run Full Auto MCACC a 3rd time. Saved to M5 since I thought that 1st time MCACC saved to M5 was an error re L speaker level, as I explained.

M5 now:


L = +3.5 dB
C = +0.5 dB
R = +4.0 dB
SR = +3.0 dB
SL = +2.5 dB
SW = -0.5 dB

So, now R&L only 0.5 dB different.
Next I manually fine R & C adjusted as follows:


L = +3.5 dB
C = 0 dB
R = +3.5 dB
SR = +3.0 dB
SL = +2.5 dB
SW = -0.5 dB

Then I redid the SPL tests & found R & center to quiet vs Left! By 1dB.

So I undid my fine adjustment leaving it back at:

M5 now:


L = +3.5 dB
C = +0.5 dB
R = +4.0 dB
SR = +3.0 dB
SL = +2.5 dB
SW = -0.5 dB

Redid SPL tests twice more:

L=68.3, 68.2
C=67.6, 67.6
R=68.0, 68.5

That is as close to ideal as I think I'll get.

Oh, the surrounds are ~ 66.0 & 66.9 but much more variability so I'll leave them as MCACC set them.


I still welcome answers, comments re my 3 questions & also comments re the speaker levels with my various MCACC settings, what specifically I s/b listening for, etc.
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post #2933 of 5582 Old 01-18-2012, 01:20 PM
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I have run MCACC with some decent result although I still have to manually run it after changing the speakers to small and bumping the x-over from 80hz to 100hz.

Question: Is there any benefit running the THX calibration disc? or MCACC is far superior?
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post #2934 of 5582 Old 01-18-2012, 07:41 PM
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I only recently began sending data from my SC-27 to the PC so I'm rather new at this. After trying various settings and MCACC runs just to see the effect, I noticed something different with the right speaker and I'm not sure what to think. I'm posting graphs of both the left and right speakers to show the difference and was hoping someone could shed some light. Hopefully nothing is wrong with the speaker since I purchased them used, but maybe I'm just being paranoid

In case it makes a difference, I'm running a Parasound 5250v.2 amplifier and Paradigm W5/W5C wall speakers as my LCR. Thanks.
LL
LL
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post #2935 of 5582 Old 01-19-2012, 04:55 AM
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Cobra, to check if it's a defective speaker or its location or the room, simply exchange the L & R speakers.

But before you do that, make sure the result is repeatable!

Dan.
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post #2936 of 5582 Old 01-19-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerrh View Post

I was thinking about doing that as well. But so many people here talk negatively about the "double bass." Not sure why exactly. I'm in the process of shopping for new speakers/sub so once I get everything I'll probably experiment a bit.

I realize there have been a number of excellent posts since the above was posted 10 days ago... but I just noticed the paragraph below from my SC-27 manual and figured I would post it here. Not meant for anything other than the information... not trying to start anything back up again... although I have to admit this thread has been very interesting

"If you have a subwoofer and like lots of bass, it may seem logical to select LARGE for your front speakers and PLUS for the subwoofer. This may not, however, yield the best bass results. Depending on the speaker placement of your room you may actually experience a decrease in the amount of bass due low frequency cancellations. In this case, try changing the position or direction of speakers. If you can’t get good results, listen to the bass response with it set to PLUS and YES or the front speakers set to LARGE and SMALL alternatively and let your ears judge which sounds best. If you’re having problems, the easiest option is to route all the bass sounds to the subwoofer by selecting SMALL for the front speakers."



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post #2937 of 5582 Old 01-19-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

Cobra, to check if it's a defective speaker or its location or the room, simply exchange the L & R speakers.

But before you do that, make sure the result is repeatable!

Dan.

Seems to be repeatable... same result after three MCACC runs. I'll swap the speakers soon and post the results here. Thanks.
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post #2938 of 5582 Old 01-21-2012, 10:05 AM
 
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Pioneer should consider adding some kind of subwoofer EQ to their receivers.
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post #2939 of 5582 Old 01-22-2012, 04:31 AM
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Even though I have been enjoying my Pioneer VSX1018 (THX Select 2 Plus) AVR since January 2009, I've only recently decided to explore the "output to PC" option.

My unit is an Australian unit (2 HDMI inputs only) and I have an RS232 to USB adapter, found and installed software for MCACC (though I could not find PC software for my actual AVR) and connected everything up.

When I went to import, the connection seemed to work, but then I got the message "Command Error Occurred, Please try again. Illegal data size."

The manual for the software suggested running Windows XP or 2000 and I am running W7. Is that really going to prevent me from using the software?



Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
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post #2940 of 5582 Old 01-22-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Even though I have been enjoying my Pioneer VSX1018 (THX Select 2 Plus) AVR since January 2009, I've only recently decided to explore the "output to PC" option.

My unit is an Australian unit (2 HDMI inputs only) and I have an RS232 to USB adapter, found and installed software for MCACC (though I could not find PC software for my actual AVR) and connected everything up.

When I went to import, the connection seemed to work, but then I got the message "Command Error Occurred, Please try again. Illegal data size."

The manual for the software suggested running Windows XP or 2000 and I am running W7. Is that really going to prevent me from using the software?



I don't have the same receiver but I have dealt with the Serial to USB adapter and some work by themselves, and others don't. I posted this just a few days ago...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21493432

It may not be your problem, but in case it helps. Good luck.
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