"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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The MCACC system is in just about all new Pioneer units, yet setup and tweaking questions are scattered throughout the AVSFORUM.
Since MCACC is a common feature, I have been given the go ahead to start an
OFFICIAL MCACC thread.
There is an "Audyssey" thread where common problems get answered by their "pro's" and I am hoping that those typical MCACC questions get asked and answered here since not every knowledgeable MCACC expert hits every Pioneer thread.

The advantage is that MCACC questions could be centrally located and those questions dont bog down the individual Pioneer model threads.

Here are a few links that may give very basic info on MCACC, if you have more, let me know to include them.
I dont know how to link words to the web address, but hope posting the links works ok.

Short definition of MCACC
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...s/Tuning/MCACC

Pioneer’s description of what MCACC does, click on link to see their demonstration:
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/4.../AF_MCACC.html

Some info using Advanced MCACC and X-Curve for a particular unit that looked informative….
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avrecei...er/index1.html

Pioneer has downloadable "MCACC Software Manuals" that give more information. For the time period (time delay), there is a complete section on that subject ("Deciding the time period for Advanced EQ Setup calibration") on page 19 in both manuals I looked over (2 pages).

The manuals can be found on this page: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...eivers.Default


Some helpful hints contributed by "Gamelover360", the original posting is on page 3
Thanks Gamelover360 for your contribution.
"OK....This is what I feel I know about the proper work flow to get the most out of MCAAC after reading the receiver manual and the Advanvced MCAAC manual. This is also the work flow I plan to use this weekend when the wife gives me a few hours alone in the house.

Work Flow:

1) Set Reciever to MCAAC preset 1 (M1). Now Run Auto MCAAC with mic in you listening position (I taped the mic to the top of a two foot long shoe horn, and stuck the shoe horn inbetween the couch cushions, so the mic is right where my ears are during listening).

2) Go into Manual Sp Setup and change the SP settings if neccessary(crossover to 100hz for me and speakers to small)

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings. You will also be given the options to have MCAAC calibrate for symmetry, all ch adjust and front align. You may save each calibration to seperate presets or run just one of them, or run two of them. You will see these options after you select Keep Sp settings.

4) Now you have an Auto MCAAC calibration(s) saved to M1 (or to multiple presets if you chose more than one EQ calibration type in previous step: symmetry, front align, and all ch adjust) (....note: you must select which preset you want Auto MCAAC to save calibration data to before you enter the audio setup menu.) Now go into Data Management--------> Data Copy and copy M1's data to as many other free presets as you like.

5) Now go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb Measurement and get a reading on the the frequency response characteristics of your room. Be sure to select EQ OFF(standing waves not controlled for via MCAAC fliters) in the Reverb Measurement menu because you don't want the standing wave adjustements (EQ on) to be factored in to the room reverb measurments. Also make sure you haven't moved the mic.

6) After test tones are done, go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb View , and you can analyze the frequency response of individual channels at various frequencies. Based upon that data, you would select the appropriate capture delay time for MCAAC to capture data during for the upcoming EQ calibration.

Change that time frame under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to whatever you decide is the appropriate capture delay time ....(Pioneer recommends 30-50 ms, but they encourage you to analyze the data under reverb view first and refer to the advanced MCAAc software manual for analysis purposes). Note: the default capture delay time is than 80-160 ms.

7) Change to the appropriate MCAAC preset before you run the new advanced EQ calibration with the new capture time. You choose which preset, but I would recommend a preset that is a carbon copy of an auto MCAAC calibration so that you can do an A-B comparison between auto EQ and advanced EQ. Go under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to start the advanced EQ calibration, and MCAAC should make a more accurate calibration since it will now capture sonic information sooner after the speakers output sound, and get a read on what the frequency response is of the speakers themselves, and not the speakers and all the reverb which accumulates as time passes. (Default capture time is 80-160 ms and thus collects more reverb and less true speaker reading)

Now you should have an accurate calibration. Also, now you can easily compare the Auto MCAAC EQ effects that are stored in a preset with the advanced EQ effects in other presets while listening to content with a simple button press on the remote. You could also juice the base a few db in a preset, and also compare running the base a bit hot to a flat calibration that you have in other presets.

Advanced MCAAC Manual (especially read pages 18-20)

VSX-1018 owners manual (especially read pages 38-50)

If I am wrong about something (which is possible), let me know. I did this so that folks looking to get the most out of their equipment could better do that. The whole Auto MCAAC thing can be a bit confusing, so maybe you can benefit from my research and tinkering."

Note: Auto MCAAC select delay capture time based upon you rooom ,and I have no idea how it does this or how to know what it chose as a delay time. that is why I recommend using advanved EQ.
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post #2 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 09:56 AM
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Thanks for this thread. It will definitely help get MCACC questions and tweaks consolidated.

In the VSX-01 and 03TXH thread, someone mentioned that MCACC in those models is not the same as in the previous versions, of which I have the VSX-94TXH. The MCACC in that is as good as it gets in my humble opinion. I will be getting my VSX-03TXH when the great USPS delivers it. Is MCACC really different?

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post #3 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 10:00 AM
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The MCACC in VSX-01 and 03 are quite limited compared to your 94's version (or 92 in that matter). If you're considering an upgrade from 94, you will need SC-05 or higher model.
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post #4 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

The MCACC in VSX-01 and 03 are quite limited compared to your 94's version (or 92 in that matter). If you're considering an upgrade from 94, you will need SC-05 or higher model.

I just went to the Pioneer website, for all current models, other than the very base model, they all use ADVANCED MCACC.
I looked up Pioneers info on the 94TXH and it uses ADVANCED MCACC>
some units use 9 bands others 5 bands EQ. Looks pretty much the same to me.

By the way, about a week or so ago, a fellow had purchased his 1018TXH and indicated it was too bright to him. He ditched the Pioneer unit to go elsewhere. I dont think he did enough homework to tweak his MCACC. If he had tried hard enough, I think he could have addressed the problem.
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post #5 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 10:27 AM
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Great thread thanks!

I have been using "front align" on my SC-05. I find that I do not like what MCACC eq does for my mains. It makes things sound muffled and masked like a blanket had been thrown over them.
So I prefer my center and surrounds EQ'd to my mains.

Anyone else find this?

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post #6 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexicon1 View Post

I just went to the Pioneer website, for all current models, other than the very base model, they all use ADVANCED MCACC.
I looked up Pioneers info on the 94TXH and it uses ADVANCED MCACC>
some units use 9 bands others 5 bands EQ. Looks pretty much the same to me.

That's the way I read it, too. I don't think the 94THX has any MCACC features not included in the newer Elite models.
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post #7 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 11:30 AM
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Can someone explain how to interpret the reverb graphs. Specifically how does one decide where to take the measurement on the time axis? Are you supposed to take the measurment after it flattens out, before, during? I have read and reread the manual, but I still am unsure if I am taking the eq measurement at the right time.
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post #8 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Great thread thanks!

I have been using "front align" on my SC-05. I find that I do not like what MCACC eq does for my mains. It makes things sound muffled and masked like a blanket had been thrown over them.
So I prefer my center and surrounds EQ'd to my mains.

Anyone else find this?

I suspect others who have become used to (and like) the sound of their speakers may feel the same way. That's why it's included. Many of us buy speakers specifically because we enjoy their inherent colorations.

All Channel Adjust attempts to create a flat response across all channels. Not everyone likes a flat response.

Symmetry tries to even out the response, too, although to a lesser extent than All Channel as it does not compensate as much for any difference created by individual speaker placement. Once again, this may not be to everyone's taste.

My preference is for All Channel Adjust, but my room is an acoustical disaster, and it is difficult for any speaker to sound its best there. Fortunately, we have options so we can choose what suits our own personal situations and tastes.
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post #9 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 12:42 PM
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Okay, someone explain each setting of it and what each is for. That way all the noobs dont have to re-ask questions.
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post #10 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 12:59 PM
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I notice that mcacc sets the eq less bright on most speakers. I ran it three times with ALL CH ADJ and saved it. I manually went back and corrected the mains eq to match each other and corrected the surrounds to match each other. I didnt prefer the eq to be too different on each speaker. I would rather the eq be set not too muffled, but not too bright.

also I would love people with the same speakers, post your eq settings, in case a couple of us want to use them to demo.
I will post mine for the new RF63s and RC64 I have when I get home. I am currently at the firestation.
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post #11 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I notice that mcacc sets the eq less bright on most speakers. I ran it three times with ALL CH ADJ and saved it. I manually went back and corrected the mains eq to match each other and corrected the surrounds to match each other. I didnt prefer the eq to be too different on each speaker. I would rather the eq be set not too muffled, but not too bright.

The newest version of MCACC does this for you with the Symmetry setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

also I would love people with the same speakers, post your eq settings, in case a couple of us want to use them to demo.
I will post mine for the new RF63s and RC64 I have when I get home. I am currently at the firestation.

The point if MCACC is to equalize the speakers in the room they are in. Since every room is different, every EQ will be different, even if the speakers are the same.
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post #12 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freaksavior View Post

That.. what is that for?

(Question originally posted in 01/03 thread.)

"That" shows the standing wave corrections made by MCACC. They can be adjusted manually, but that is best reserved for very experienced, advanced users.

It is not related to the crossover settings as your previous question implied.

I'd recommend that you leave it as is.
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post #13 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freaksavior View Post

Okay, someone explain each setting of it and what each is for. That way all the noobs dont have to re-ask questions.

That would be a fairly complex, time consuming job. Maybe someone will find the time to write a mini-manual, but in the meantime, try chapter 7 of your 01/03 manual. That explains most of them.
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post #14 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I notice that mcacc sets the eq less bright on most speakers. I ran it three times with ALL CH ADJ and saved it. I manually went back and corrected the mains eq to match each other and corrected the surrounds to match each other. I didnt prefer the eq to be too different on each speaker. I would rather the eq be set not too muffled, but not too bright.

Yes Symmetry, but also consider trying "front align". It will EQ the surrounds the same, and the center channel. It will leave you mains untouched. I find the EQ adjustment on the center channel brings out the dialog very nicely.

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post #15 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 01:30 PM
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Do most of you use the one position standing wave correction, or the three position?
I am currently using the 3-position and I think it worked well.

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post #16 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 01:36 PM
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I've got a vsx-82 and waiting on my vsx-59 to arrive.

The 59 manual talks about running Professional Acoustic Calibration EQ separately from the MCACC auto surround setup. I don't remember doing this on the 82. Is this a feature that is automatcally done in newer receivers?

On the 59, does it have to be turned on separately from the standard MCACC?

thx

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gov View Post

do most of you use the one position standing wave correction, or the three position?
I am currently using the 3-position and i think it worked well.

+1
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post #18 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

The newest version of MCACC does this for you with the Symmetry setting.
The point if MCACC is to equalize the speakers in the room they are in. Since every room is different, every EQ will be different, even if the speakers are the same.

I completely understand that, I was just stating that it would nice to try some other settings that someone else had.

Let me ask this: What exactly does the front align do? Should you set up your speakers distance and other simple manual options before you run any auto correction? When I first got the receiver, I ran the acoustic pro eq without touching any distance settings, x curve, speaker settings, or anything. I used the multi point cosidering I have a couch on the right and left and a chairs in the middle of the room. Is running it this way correct? Which way do you guys run your auto correction and what do you set first if anything? thanks
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post #19 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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If someone has links to special set-up or answers to typical MCACC questions, I would like to post them in the starter thread.
Thanks
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post #20 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I completely understand that, I was just stating that it would nice to try some other settings that someone else had.

Let me ask this: What exactly does the front align do? Should you set up your speakers distance and other simple manual options before you run any auto correction? When I first got the receiver, I ran the acoustic pro eq without touching any distance settings, x curve, speaker settings, or anything. I used the multi point cosidering I have a couch on the right and left and a chairs in the middle of the room. Is running it this way correct? Which way do you guys run your auto correction and what do you set first if anything? thanks

I would also like to see other user settings. My 94 had a very neutral MCACC setting with my Paradigm Studio (100's, 20s, CC590) setup. I was not pleased, as it made my Paradigm sound not much better than my 20 year old Cerwin Vega D9 mains (replaced by Studio 100s).

I did notice a significant increase in sound quality in the Paradigms when I ran them off my old Soundcraftsman Pro Power 4 amp. Now, I'm looking into a Rotel 1095 or Emotiva MPS-2 amp.
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post #21 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

That would be a fairly complex, time consuming job. Maybe someone will find the time to write a mini-manual, but in the meantime, try chapter 7 of your 01/03 manual. That explains most of them.

yeah, but the Manuel isn't detailed

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post #22 of 5564 Old 01-24-2009, 09:14 PM
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Who's Manuel, and why does he have to be detailed?

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

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post #23 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

+1

First I want to say that this thread is a great idea.
I first did the single position auto MCACC as described early on in the manual. It set the speaker sizes wrong so I changed my speakers from large all around to large for the fronts (they have small, but decent powered integrated subs), small for the center and surrounds and plus for the sub.
I then read about running MCACC once the speaker's sizes were set, using an advanced setting (forget the name), so I did that. Then I read about the 3 point setting (didn't quite understand it when I first read the manual), so I ran it that way. (my projector is on a table between my two main listening seats, so I wanted a better balance between the seats on either side. I used the seat on the left for position 1, the seat on the right for 2 and the area above the projector for 3. Sounds weird, but it was the only way for me to come up with a balanced sound field in my room. Let me know if there's a better way).
Anyway, to make a long story longer, I've left it that way and it seems to work fine.
I don't have the expertise to start messing with the settings.
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post #24 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexicon1 View Post

Some info using Advanced MCACC and X-Curve for a particular unit that looked informative.
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avrecei...er/index1.html

I this article the author reinforces what I also found. I would recommend going manually through your EQ settings to see if any of the adjustments are severe. Some of my bands were attenuated by as much as -8.0db, which in my opinion was too much. It gave an unnatural sound from the speaker in question. I just took a little off of it. My room is acoustically terrible, so terrible it was beyond reasonable eq correction. Here is what the author said......" I lessened a few of the more severe cuts (in EQ) by a dB or two to give the sound a bit more body."

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Can someone explain how to interpret the reverb graphs. Specifically how does one decide where to take the measurement on the time axis? Are you supposed to take the measurment after it flattens out, before, during? I have read and reread the manual, but I still am unsure if I am taking the eq measurement at the right time.

Still curious about what settings others are using for Acoustic EQ Pro. What time setting are you using?
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post #25 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 04:29 AM
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There had been a question regarding whether you you should re-run MCAAC in custom mode and choose Keep SP settings............... AFTER running auto MCAAC and making manual changes to SP Settings such as large, small, and crossover settings.

In other words, if MCAAC comes up with Large and 80 hz crossover in auto mode, and you change it to small and 100hz crossover, would re-running MCAAC in custom mode (and choosing Keep SP settings) change what MCAAC comes up with.

Any more input on that?
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post #26 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 04:53 AM
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I was still trying to get the question answered, Do you need to set you speaker settings first manually, then run the auto correction? what does front align do?
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post #27 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I was still trying to get the question answered, Do you need to set you speaker settings first manually, then run the auto correction? what does front align do?

I think you are supposed to run auto setup first. If satisfied with this then OK. Most people are not and at least go to the next step.

Manually correct speaker size, distance, and level(with spl meter). Re-run Auto MCCAC, at bottom where it says START, change to CUSTOM. Click OK, then at next screen, select KEEP SPEAKER SETTING. This will re-run MCCAC but keep you speaker size, distance, and level settings and re-calibrate.

If you are still not satisfied, you can use Manual MCCAC, Acoustic EQ Pro. Using this you can perform reverb measurments on your room. Using your reverb graphs you can select the time delay for MCCAC to use when acquiring the input for auto calibration. However I still am unsure how to interpret the graphs to determine where on the time axis to collect sound measurments. My graph flattens out after about 50ms, so I use the 50-60ms setting for acquisition, Not sure if this is "correct" or not.

I hope this is accurate and helpful.
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post #28 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

There had been a question regarding whether you you should re-run MCAAC in custom mode and choose Keep SP settings............... AFTER running auto MCAAC and making manual changes to SP Settings such as large, small, and crossover settings.

In other words, if MCAAC comes up with Large and 80 hz crossover in auto mode, and you change it to small and 100hz crossover, would re-running MCAAC in custom mode (and choosing Keep SP settings) change what MCAAC comes up with.

Any more input on that?

My minimal understanding and experience says, yes.
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post #29 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 05:41 AM
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Thanks so much for this thread. I'm not proficient with the intricacies of MCACC so I pretty much just leave what MCACC tells me after running the calibration. The only thing I make sure of is that speakers are set to small (from large) and crossover at 80hz. If I change sub to "plus" what exactly does that do? Does it affect the crossover? I can't find info about this in the manual.
NickHitachi's instructions are intriguing and I never thought to do a custom MCACC. I think I will try it to see if I hear any improvements. But what does moving sub to "plus" actually do?
Thanks.
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post #30 of 5564 Old 01-25-2009, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I was still trying to get the question answered, Do you need to set you speaker settings first manually, then run the auto correction? what does front align do?

Personally, I ran auto MCACC and of course it selected my mains as LARGE. I immediately changed it, and then manually ran the rest of the calibrations, EQ, 3-position standing wave, and full band phase.
"front align" EQ's all your speakers EXCEPT it leaves the mains untouched. And of course it does nothing to the subwoofer. So basically no test tones are sent to the mains and subwoofer during the "front align" calibration.

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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