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post #271 of 2642 Old 02-05-2009, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

but the burden if proof is on the OTHER side. It's exactly analogous to the specious arguments against the science of climate change. ...

...Anybody who is actually familiar with the science of the field doesn't dispute the claims being made.

Right--like Algore, who invented the internet.

Living proof that God has a sense of humor, as it snows everytime he shows up to give a speech on "Global Warming."
Flippin' moron.

If the science that says "all Amps sound the same" is as sound as the "science" of anthropomorphic climate change, I think I'll stick with magic unicorns.

At least I won't be subjecting myself to a bunch of anal-retentive guilt trips about my "lifestyle".

/rant

Other than that, I don't have much of an opinion on the question at hand, just following the discussion.

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post #272 of 2642 Old 02-05-2009, 10:16 PM
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If all amps sound the same then explain this article. Bob Carver changed the sound of his amp to match another just by swapping out certain components. Proof that anyone who believes all amps sound the same is out to lunch.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...ht=#post152392
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post #273 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Listening that loudly leads to increased recovery times for the ear and decreased sensitivity overall, after all it's not like a microphone that doesn't fatigue. As a result there'll be a tendency to overlook or not even hear detail. Takes time for the ear to recover.

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

.......
I was port of those listening tests, and while it was almost 20 years ago I recollect that peaks were near the limits of some of the amps that were tested. The room was relatvely large, it was very absorbtive especially with that many people in it, and the speakers are not all that efficient. I think that peaks were under 100 dB, partially for fear of opening the tweeter fuses. Listening levels might have been 5 or so dB less than your optimum.

Subsequent research shows that the human ear has its maximum sensitivity to differences in this range.

......

Looking at both of these, seems to me then that if loudness is a consideration for the time it takes for the ear to recover then it would be over 105db.

Cheers
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post #274 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 03:19 AM
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One fact that I find interesting by those saying amps sound the same is that part of the argument is amps are meant to output a transparent and clean sound and not have as part of its design aspects to modify this.

Well, to be honest the same can be said about speakers and yet they go out of their way to use different materials,crossovers,drivers,cones, etc, while also presenting slightly different sound within a model range.
In the 40+ years of speaker development we still are not there.

A clear example of this stands out, specifically tweeters where it is possible to see closer measurements between various manufacturers.
And yet with tweeters again there is no one design or standard; we have soft dome, aluminium, diamond, berryllium.
On top of this we have dome or ribbon or Uni-Q (Kef).

Considering the aim in developing tweeters is to present the sound clean and one that does not change the signal that was recorded, then you would expect development to focus by now on a single design concept and implementation due to previous results and experiences/research over the many years.
Ah wait the same argument seems to match amps where it can also be argued there is no one perfect design in meeting the criteria; "only effects gear should modify the signal audibly".
Hence the differences and diversity we see in design approach/concepts and implementation for both amps and also tweeters.

If really feeling the need to respond about my use of tweeters then please limit it to these as I have for the sake of simplicity and not bring in factors that would not apply to them
Also another reason to use tweeters is there are many different preferences and actual dislikes by listeners to the sound these can present.

Cheers
DT
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post #275 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 05:23 AM
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If an amplifier has a sound, there's something wrong.

We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.
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post #276 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post


I wouldn't ever buy an amp designed by someone who believed that amps sound different as a matter of course. They're morons.


You don't use an amp then I guess. Can't think of an amp designer who doesn't tout the superiority of their product. 'cept maybe 1 who posts here.
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post #277 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by milaz001 View Post

If an amplifier has a sound, there's something wrong.

Yes well the same can be said about speakers, after all they are meant to be as natural and neutral as possible without a sound characteristic.
But as my example of tweeter shows life is never that simple.

Cheers
DT
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post #278 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Arny,
what is the rough levels that research shows ear sensitivity at its best, somewhere around 95to100db?
Not questioning but interested to see how this fits with average listening levels and dynamic peaks of excellent recordings.

Ear's sensitivity peaks at more like 85 dB SPl peak.

By 95-100 dB you ear is probably already into "protect mode". It is desensitizing itself.

One problem is that SPLs aren't just one number. What does 85 dB SPL mean? Do we count 1 nSec peaks, 1 mSec peaks, or 1 second peaks? And, what is the average level? If the peaks are 85 dB, the average level could be as low as 65 dB or less.

Then there is the matter of frequency response weighting. A-weighted is commonly used to measure "safe" levels which is not what A-weighting was designed for.

I would say 85 dB SPL A-weighted 1/2 second measurement averaging for uncompressed music is around where the ear is most sensitive. That may give you some > 100 dB peaks, but not many. Too many and the ear starts protecting itself.

JJ may have a better idea. I know that he has spent a lot of time trying to get listeners geared up to peak sensitivity.
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post #279 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk

The high end ragazines seem to have discovered an alternative universe where the laws of science have been re-written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Harker View Post

Different components used and design achieve difference in sound signature. That is a fact and not a re-writing of science.

Both statements are true.

Nevertheless, many of the means for achieving a difference in sound signature claimed by high end ragazines and vendors do represent weird science.

Green pens, anyone? ;-)
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post #280 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

One fact that I find interesting by those saying amps sound the same is that part of the argument is amps are meant to output a transparent and clean sound and not have as part of its design aspects to modify this.

Building a sonically transparent amp is not a diffciult or expensive thing to do.

Quote:
Well, to be honest the same can be said about speakers

Building a sonically transparent speaker is a diffciult or imposible thing to do.

Why do you keep bringing up this straw man argument?

Apples are not oranges. Speakers are not amplifiers or CD players.


Quote:
and yet they go out of their way to use different materials,crossovers,drivers,cones, etc, while also presenting slightly different sound within a model range.

A similar thing is true of ampliiers. Different circuits, different active devices, different chassis, different power levels, different design impedance loads, different power supplies, etc.

Yet we have a great many ampliers that are sonically indistinguishable from their inputs and other amplifiers, despite all the variations.

Also, you may surprised to hear that there are many loudspeakers that sound very similar despite differences in some details of their construction.

Furthermore, the use of newer or exotic materials is no guarantee of high performance. For example a friend of mine designs car audio systems. A vendor brings in a prototype high end system using some very trick-looking ceramic diaphragm speakers. Or aerogels.

It turns out that speakers made with paper diaphragms (low, mid) or polyester (tweeter) are just as durable but have wider and smoother frequency response.

Furthermore, if the speakers are about the same diameter, he can tweak the system DSP so that the prosaic and exotic sytems both sound very good and are close to being indistinguishable, despite the *failings* of the more exotic and expensive drivers.
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post #281 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:32 AM
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What does it matter these days as most of the new preamps and pretty much all receivers have EQ correction. Buy an amp for power, not a sound signature (real or not).
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post #282 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

What does it matter these days as most of the new preamps and pretty much all receivers have EQ correction. Buy an amp for power, not a sound signature (real or not).

Why 500 watts if you only use 20 at peak?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #283 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

What does it matter these days as most of the new preamps and pretty much all receivers have EQ correction. Buy an amp for power, not a sound signature (real or not).

It gives us something to chat about on a Friday at work.
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post #284 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by J.Harker View Post

How so? They design the layout on a computer before building and have a good idea of how it will perform before built but that is not the same as sound signature. That comes down to choice of components used and they will swap components until they get the sound they want. Sure, all amps amplify but all amps do not sound the same.

Most people--including most audio enthusiasts--do not know what power amps actually do, how to compare their performance, or how they are designed.

Bob Lee
Applications Engineer
QSC Audio Products, LLC
Costa Mesa, Calif.

Secretary, Audio Engineering Society
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post #285 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Why 500 watts if you only use 20 at peak?

Because that 20W amp is probably clipping a lot more than you think, unless maybe you're driving Klipschorns or the like.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #286 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

btw, i could give you 100 people that match scores on several psychological tests and that would not mean they were the same person or were not discernable from each other.

that has to be the worst and most irrelevant possible analogy you could think of. at least with DT's apples/oranges analogy of speakers to amps, you're still in the same ballpark. your analogy isn't even apples to oranges, it's apples to crocodiles or something.

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post #287 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhawk View Post

Right--like Algore, who invented the internet.

Living proof that God has a sense of humor, as it snows everytime he shows up to give a speech on "Global Warming."
Flippin' moron.

If the science that says "all Amps sound the same" is as sound as the "science" of anthropomorphic climate change, I think I'll stick with magic unicorns.

Well, I really wanted to use "creation science" as the analogy, but felt that would be extra controversial. Either way the analogy applies though -- there is no actual "controversy" except that which is invented by outsiders with vested interests.

BTW - Al Gore isn't a climatologist, but nice strawman.

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post #288 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

that has to be the worst and most irrelevant possible analogy you could think of. at least with DT's apples/oranges analogy of speakers to amps, you're still in the same ballpark. your analogy isn't even apples to oranges, it's apples to crocodiles or something.

Strange....I was thinking that he nailed it on the head. Go figure.
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post #289 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 11:21 AM
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because human personalities are in any way analogous to amplifier design, both in terms of design/complexity and in how much we actually understand about how they work...

the "science doesn't know everything about X, therefore it can't tell us anything about Y!" argument, where X and Y aren't even close to analogous, is tired, tired, tired..... and specious!

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post #290 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

because human personalities are in any way analogous to amplifier design, both in terms of design/complexity and in how much we actually understand about how they work...

No. Because some people maintain that if it measures the same it must sound the same.
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post #291 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 11:28 AM
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the analogy breaks down completely because the "measure the same" part is totally NON-analogous between a human personality and a device like an amplifier. Do you really think we can measure something like "human personality" as accurately as scientists/engineers can measure amplifiers? do you think that science understands and can measure "human personality" as accurately as we understand specific senses, like vision and hearing?

again, specious = "superficially pleasing or plausible" but when you actually examine it more deeply it's a worthless argument

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post #292 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Because that 20W amp is probably clipping a lot more than you think, unless maybe you're driving Klipschorns or the like.

so the average user needs 500 watts?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #293 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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If you listened to your music at 90 dB, which seems like a nice ear saving volume, and you had 15 dB peaks, you would need 105 dB capability.

If you listened 4 meters away, you would need 12 dB more I think. That would put it at 118 dB. That would take about 500 watts.

But I am thinking you don't need quite that much.

200 watts / channel seems like it would work for most people.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #294 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Well, I really wanted to use "creation science" as the analogy, but felt that would be extra controversial. Either way the analogy applies though -- there is no actual "controversy" except that which is invented by outsiders with vested interests.

BTW - Al Gore isn't a climatologist, but nice strawman.

The vested interests ARE the global warming advocates--you should try a little research into the hundreds of actuals climatologists and those in fields that actually bear on the issues in question who have renounced the alarmists. Unfortunately they don't get the press that the global warming special interests do, so people are unaware--like you apparently are--that there actually IS a controversy.

We can't predict the weather for next weekend reliably, but 100 years from now? No problem!

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post #295 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 05:12 PM
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guess I should have gone with "creation science".... no need to derail the thread any further, I'm sure there are plenty of fora on the internet where you could find a lively debate, but here let's stick to the amps....

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post #296 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhawk View Post

The vested interests ARE the global warming advocates--you should try a little research into the hundreds of actuals climatologists and those in fields that actually bear on the issues in question who have renounced the alarmists. Unfortunately they don't get the press that the global warming special interests do, so people are unaware--like you apparently are--that there actually IS a controversy.

Amen, brother. This global warming thing is the biggest scam of all time.
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post #297 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

but here let's stick to the amps....

Fair enough, friend...

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post #298 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:26 PM
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The correlation between global warming denialists and subjectivist audiophiles doesn't surprise me.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #299 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:41 PM
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[quote=batpig;15755061]the analogy breaks down completely because the "measure the same" part is totally NON-analogous between a human personality and a device like an amplifier.
respectfully disagree

Do you really think we can measure something like "human personality" as accurately as scientists/engineers can measure amplifiers? do you think that science understands and can measure "human personality" as accurately as we understand specific senses, like vision and hearing?

ah, yes. about the same. its is the turning ielectrical impulses into consciousness and sensation piece that we know nothing at all about. Not to mention how bias and emotion can affect sensation and consciousness like how stress alters pain or how mood could affect the experience of sound.

again, specious = "superficially pleasing or plausible" but when you actually examine it more deeply it's a worthless argument[/QUOT

is that deep enough for you? nice 5 penny woord BTW. seems like you had to point out how smart you are. no need.
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post #300 of 2642 Old 02-06-2009, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

The correlation between global warming denialists and subjectivist audiophiles doesn't surprise me.

curious how peoples' political leanings are between subjectivists and objectivists.

i will settle for a pearson r of 0.3

i myself tend toward liberatarian.
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