"Official" All amps sound the same thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Well, think about it. If, 20 years ago, most amps were sonically indistinguishable from the proverbial straight wire with gain, the only way that modern amps could now be distinguishable from same is if modern amps were worse. Do you think today's amps are worse than those of yesteryear? If so, then perhaps it's time to do some new tests.

But how do you know that the tests were representative of the amps on the market 20 years ago.
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post #362 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 05:14 PM
 
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But how do you know that the tests were representative of the amps on the market 20 years ago.

Depends on what tests they used but tests and measurements have not changed.
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post #363 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Depends on what tests they used but tests and measurements have not changed.

Tis not a question of measurements and methods tis a question of bias in the sample of amps tested.
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post #364 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference...-2-13.paradigm

Maximum Input Power 210 watts

Are you running dedicated 20 amp lines to each of your amps?

Yeah, I'm aware of what the Paradigm spec says. I contacted them and they said the 210 watts is somewhat along the lines of a long term/continuous power spec. They seem to absorb the approximately 500W peaks pretty well but that's close to the limit, IMO.

I am not running a 20A line for each amp. I have all four connected to one 20A dedicated circuit. This is seems to be adequate since my high power is high peak power, not continuous power as is required for amp testing.

According to QSC, under normal program/music conditions with occasional clipping, the 3402s pull about 7.6A each and the 2402s about 5A each.

So, worse case with program/music and occasional clipping I should pull about 21.4A. Since I don't drive any of these amps to clipping in their current configuration, a single 20A circuit is adequate for my use of the amps.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #365 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 05:47 PM
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But how do you know that the tests were representative of the amps on the market 20 years ago.

First of all, enough different amps were used in those tests that no one can say, well, you only looked at a narrow spectrum.

Second, makers of amplifiers have had 30 years to say, hey, wait a minute, our amp isn't like those others. And others who believe that all those tests didn't test a representative set of amps have similarly had 30 years to come up with some counterexamples—amplifiers that are distinguishable in DBTs, with the usual conditions. They haven't done so.

That's how science works. If somebody thinks an experiment wasn't done properly, they design and conduct a better experiment and demonstrate that it produces a different result. They don't just go on an Internet forum and whine about it.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #366 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 05:53 PM
 
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Yeah, I'm aware of what the Paradigm spec says. I contacted them and they said the 210 watts is somewhat along the lines of a long term/continuous power spec. They seem to absorb the approximately 500W peaks pretty well.

I doubt that, you would either over drive the woofers and bottom them out or have huge distortion numbers.

Quote:


I am not running a 20A line for each amp. I have all four connected to one 20A dedicated circuit. This is seems to be adequate since my high power is high peak power, not continuous power as is required for amp testing.

According to QSC, under normal program/music conditions with occasional clipping, the 3402s pull about 7.6A each and the 2402s about 5A each.

So, worse case with program/music and occasional clipping I should pull about 21.4A. Since I don't drive any of these amps to clipping in their current configuration, a single 20A circuit is adequate for my use of the amps.

Since your speakers could not take anywhere near the power you say you are putting into them something else has to be causing the amps to clip.
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post #367 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

I doubt that, you would either over drive the woofers and bottom them out or have huge distortion numbers.

Since your speakers could not take anywhere near the power you say you are putting into them something else has to be causing the amps to clip.

Well, they don't (bottom).

The 3402s aren't clipping. The 2402s did on occasion when I had one of those connected to the 100s. By this I have no choice but to assume the Yamahas had to be clipping pretty regularly (no clipping indicators)...well, at least when I was cranking on it.

If it is disortion that I'm hearing it's a nicely improved distortion over the old Yamahas.

I'm not really sure how you say the speakers can't take it. Paradigm told me the 210W was essentially a long term/continuous power spec, so 500W peak, give or take, isn't out of the question for music power handling. But, like I've said all along, that is about the max/limit. The 3402s assure me that I don't reach clipping of the amps; that's really all I've said all along.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #368 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:02 PM
 
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Well, they don't (bottom).

Then you were not running that much power to them.

Quote:


The 3402s aren't clipping. The 2402s did on occasion, so the Yamahas had to be pretty regularly...well, at least when I was cranking on it.

So depending on your room with that much power you were hitting 118+ db, maybe you should test it with a SPL meter unless your hearing is already damaged.

Quote:


If it is disortion that I'm hearing, it's a nicely improved distortion over the old Yamahas.

The distortion in the speakers.
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post #369 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

First of all, enough different amps were used in those tests that no one can say, well, you only looked at a narrow spectrum.

Who says that enough were tested? Conducting a valid survey is more than just ABX'ing a bunch of amps. One would like to think that they knew what they were talking about before taking their word for it.
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post #370 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:12 PM
 
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Who says that enough were tested? Conducting a valid survey is more than just ABX'ing a bunch of amps. One would like to think that they knew what they were talking about before taking their word for it.

Then how many amps do you think they should have tested?
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post #371 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Then you were not running that much power to them.

So depending on your room with that much power you were hitting 118+ db, maybe you should test it with a SPL meter unless your hearing is already damaged.

The distortion in the speakers.

So, if the clipping indicators on a 425 wpc 2402 amp were lighting on occasion and now with 700wpc amp they're not flashing, what do you estimate the power at?

118 is possible, haven't measured lately. I know it did about 114 with the 250 watts from the Yamahas. There is a picture of the SPL meter showing it in my photos if that wasn't lost in the forum "upgrades" over the years.

As I said, it's pretty good distortion then.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #372 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:14 PM
 
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I'm not really sure how you say the speakers can't take it. Paradigm told me the 210W was essentially a long term/continuous power spec, so 500W peak, give or take, isn't out of the question for music power handling. But, like I've said all along, that is about the max/limit. The 3402s assure me that I don't reach clipping of the amps; that's really all I've said all along.

Try a SPL meter next time and see what you are getting.

Quote:


So, if the clipping indicators on a 425 wpc 2402 amp were lighting on occasion and now with 700wpc amp they're not flashing, what do you estimate the power at?

So you are assuming?

Quote:


118 is possible, haven't measured lately. I know it did about 114 with the 250 watts from the Yamahas. There is a picture of the SPL meter showing it in my photos if that wasn't lost in the forum "upgrades" over the years.

So your hearing is damaged?

Quote:


As I said, it's pretty good distortion then.

Again you are not understanding.
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post #373 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Then how many amps do you think they should have tested?

Selecting a representative sample is not just about quantity.
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post #374 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Try a SPL meter next time and see what you are getting.



So you are assuming?



So your hearing is damaged?



Again you are not understanding.

My SPL isn't really important to me. If I want to demonstrate big SPL numbers I'll go out to the garage and measure my pro speaker setup. What I care about is clean, clear sound at my max desired listening level. I didn't have it before, I do now. Simple as that.

Yes, I am assuming. What else would I do. Clipping indicators on a 425wpc amp flash, those on a 700wpc amp don't when the only subsitution has been the amps. 500W, give or take, seems a pretty reasonable assumption to me.

Well, my hearing may be damaged. I was jet engine mechanic in the Air Force that worked at the test cell, occasionally on the flight line, and I had a big-assed car stereo (for the times) in my days of youth.

What don't I understand? Are you going to though out some fancy terms like power compression and all that?

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #375 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:32 PM
 
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My SPL isn't really important to me. If I want to demonstrate big SPL numbers I'll go out to the garage and measure my pro speaker setup.

SPL is not important to you yet you state that you run 500 watts to your speakers?

Quote:


Yes, I am assuming. What else would I do. Clipping indicators on a 425wpc amp flash, those on a 700wpc amp don't when the only subsitution has been the amps. 500W, give or take, seems a pretty reasonable assumption to me.

The either the amp or AC power is not capable of delivering those numbers. What do the studio 100's dip down to as far as ohm ratings go?

Quote:


Well, my hearing may be damaged. I was jet engine mechanic in the Air Force that worked at the test cell, occasionally on the flight line, and I had a big-assed car stereo (for the times) in my days of youth.

We are in a thread talking about the sonic differences of amps and you admit your hearing is damaged.

Quote:


What don't I understand? Are you going to though out some fancy terms like power compression and all that?

You keep refering to the THD of the amps and I am talking about the THD of the speakers.
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post #376 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

SPL is not important to you yet you state that you run 500 watts to your speakers?

Yeah. My point was that I didn't hear any difference in the amps other than what additional power brings.


Quote:


The either the amp or AC power is not capable of delivering those numbers. What do the studio 100's dip down to as far as ohm ratings go?

The Studios dip to ~2.5-3 ohms.

I've already stated the current draw figures directly from QSC. 21.4A with all four amps into occasional clipping with typical program/music material. And, I've stated that I don't drive any of the amps in the current configuration into clipping so I'm pulling less than expected amount. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

BTW, the Studios are crossed at 45Hz to a Servo 15 sub in music mode, 80Hz in movie mode.


Quote:


We are in a thread talking about the sonic differences of amps and you admit your hearing is damaged.

Being sarcastic. I don't know if my hearing is damaged. I'm 44 years old so it's pretty likely I can't hear squat above 14-15kHz due to presbycusis, but I honestly think I'm OK as OK can be below that. I don't find myself saying "What?" too often.

Quote:


You keep refering to the THD of the amps and I am talking about the THD of the speakers.

I haven't made specific reference to the THD of anything. All I've said is that my system now plays at the max level I want and sounds cleaner doing so.

I know about THD of speakers. Double digits is everyday common in the bass region. Heck, the report from Axiom(?) shows that the test subjects couldn't hear distortions at lower frequencies until they were about as loud as the program itself.

Since I have 11 amps within about eleven feet of me right now, including both ends of the scale from pro amps to "high end" Levinson, I feel somewhat qualified on stating my experience with all amps sounding the same.

So, do they? In my opinion pretty darn close within the constraints mcnarus mentioned earlier. So close that I wouldn't put money on me trying to pick a difference in a blind test.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #377 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 07:00 PM
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post #378 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Sorry Michael, here is your tag "Buy receivers for features and speakers for sound (and don't forget that room accoustics also play a role in what you hear.) " I think this says alot.

Yes, but realize where I am coming from. Many people come here and expect to get advice on sound. But what useful advice are you going to get?

First off, you don't know the person giving you advice.

Another point is this person is in a different room with different speakers than you. If one receiver is better (for whatever reason,) with their setup, it may not be better than yours. Not to mention the time and money spent.

Which leaves me with only one conclusion - you can't get any reliable data short of buying every receiver which matches your needs and then carefully comparing them against each other (which is nearly impossible unless you have a way to quickly switch from one to the other.)

I assume anyone willing to do the amount of work needed to sonically compare receivers will ignore my advice. People who mindlessly follow advice at the bottom of posts will likely be happy buying on features.

It's a community service of sorts. And I don't feel a bit guilty about the suggestion.

Also note features could include sonic features such as Audyssey and dynamics control which should have a much bigger impact than the pre amp, DAC and power amp stage of a receiver.

Anyway, I don't expect you to agree in any way. Seeing as you questioned it, I thought this was a reasonable place to respond.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #379 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 08:54 PM
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Richard Clark will pay you $10,000 if you can tell the difference between two amps.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm
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post #380 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 09:10 PM
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Do all amps sound the same?
The answer is "no" because amplifiers do not produce sound, they produce electical potential.

Every amplifier produces this electical potential differently.
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post #381 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 09:28 PM
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Selecting a representative sample is not just about quantity.

It wasn't a single survey, and the concept of sampling is pretty close to meaningless here. If you wanted to know what percentage of amps were indistinguishable under the usual conditions, then you'd have to worry about sampling.

But here, we just wanted to know if any amps could be distinguished under those conditions. No one found any, and it wasn't for lack of trying. And as I said in the bit you snipped out, no one with a strong economic incentive to find one managed to do so, either.

Also the point made earlier about measurements was spot-on. It's not just that we have a bunch of DBTs of particular amps. We also have more general research into the limits of human hearing, and we know roughly what the thresholds are for "just noticeable differences." And when we measure ampsincluding today's ampswe can see that there's nothing in their output that would lead us to predict that they'd sound different (again, under the usual conditions).

When the measurements and the listening tests give you the same results, that's when you know you've got a solid theory. And we do.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #382 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 09:29 PM
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Do all amps sound the same?
The answer is "no" because amplifiers do not produce sound, they produce electical potential.

Ah, so they're all silent.

Quote:


Every amplifier produces this electical potential differently.

So?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #383 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 10:01 PM
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Has this been posted yet? Supports the theory that they do sound very similar so long as they are not driven into clipping. Certainly tells me not to waste ten grand on an esoteric amp.

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/rece...d-quality.aspx
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post #384 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 10:07 PM
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"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." N.P.

Copied from another audio site, where there too ............are doubters
: )
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post #385 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 10:26 PM
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Yea, but that link I just posted is using peoples ears and not numbers to see if there is a difference or not. Only 53% could tell cheap $200.00 amp from $4,000.00 amp. That says there is a difference but such a small difference that it is not worth spending 4 grand for.
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post #386 of 2642 Old 02-08-2009, 10:51 PM
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Amplifiers don't make sound. The electric potential from an amplifier must go through the following parallel/series chains before it is converted into sound and then into hearing.

0. amplifier
5. amplifier terminal block
10. speaker wire terminal
15. speaker wire solder
20. speaker wire
25. speaker wire solder
30. speaker wire terminal
35. loudspeaker terminal block
40. speaker internal wiring solder
45. speaker internal wiring
50. crossover solder
55. crossover circuit board
60. crossover components (resistors, capacitors, coils, etc...)
65. crossover circuit board
70. crossover solder
75. driver (tweeter, mid, woofer, etc...) internal wiring
80. driver internal wiring solder
85. driver wiring terminal
90. driver terminal
95. driver wiring solder
100. driver tinsel lead
105. driver tinsel lead solder
110. driver voice coil
(Sound starts here)
115. force is transmitted from the wire to the voice coil enamel
120. voice coil former
125. voice coil former adhesive
130. cone/spider/surround
135. air
140. speaker grill cloth
145. air
(hearing starts here)
150. the listener.

Feel free to add.

Of all the variables above, where is there the largest variability and least consistency?

I would bet number 150.

The question now becomes, after 0 to 145 is made statistically consistent (i.e. manufacturing quality control), how do we make 150. statistically significant?
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post #387 of 2642 Old 02-09-2009, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

If people want to pay more for anything but sound quality then go for it but you can not say that the amp sounds better based on name or price.
?

Have you checked to see if the needle is stuck on your record, Doug?

Has anyone on this thread or any other said an amp sounds better because it costs more?

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post #388 of 2642 Old 02-09-2009, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


(3) Listening while something else in the system is broken. In the wire game, it is well known that any number of people rip out their old wires, and put in new wires and again perceive a wonderful improvement. In reality, simply removing and replacing the old wires would provide the same benefit, because the problem was corrosion build up that would be wiped away by a remove and replace cycle.

Please explain this futher. i have 12g wire's and i plan on getting some 10g ones, i mean why not right? im guessing im going to hear a bit better sound since their 10g wires. when you say remove and replace the wires you mean just take them out the binding post and put them back in? this is the first im hearing (pun) about this.

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post #389 of 2642 Old 02-09-2009, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by J.Harker View Post

Richard Clark will pay you $10,000 if you can tell the difference between two amps.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

Right--but with even more conditions than those on this thread.

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post #390 of 2642 Old 02-09-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:


im guessing im going to hear a bit better sound since their 10g wires.

Nope, 10g offers no difference over 12g or even 14g or 16g if your distance is minimal.

Now if you are running 200Feet....then maybe you MIGHT hear a difference.

If you are under 20 feet, save your money and just buy 16g because it DOES NOT MATTER.....There are a thousand threads on this so research them first. No need to take this great debate down another "snake oil, cables/speaker wires sound different" path

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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