"Official" All amps sound the same thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:26 PM
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Anyone for a round of Australian Wine tasting?
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nope, 10g offers no difference over 12g or even 14g or 16g if your distance is minimal.

Now if you are running 200Feet....then maybe you MIGHT hear a difference.

If you are under 20 feet, save your money and just buy 16g because it DOES NOT MATTER.....There are a thousand threads on this so research them first. No need to take this great debate down another "snake oil, cables/speaker wires sound different" path

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Originally Posted by milaz001 View Post

Guess again.

Can you guys explain then what he ment by removing the wires?

home theater addict
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Can you guys explain then what he ment by removing the wires?

He was saying that what made the difference, was not replacing the 12 gauge wire with 10 gauge wire. It was replacing old, damaged wires with new wires that caused the improvement.

He could have used 12 or 14 or 16 gauge wire and it would have had the same effect.
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:53 PM
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I believe that he was saying that over time corrosion forms between the terminal and the wire. So by removing the old wire and reinstalling the same old wire can break off the surface corrosion to restore the original conductivity.

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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Can you guys explain then what he ment by removing the wires?

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Old 02-10-2009, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Which demonstrates, of course, that the "want" was not a bias.

Call it or not call it whatever you want. The point is despite very strong suggestion, desire and anticipation, I still didn't hear a dam thing.
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:43 PM
 
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A $200 amp's innards placed in a $4000 amp's chassis will wipe the floor in a sighted comparison with any other amp priced $3999 or less. Bet on it.

Funny and true.
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:28 PM
 
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Well I received my new Amp this afternoon. This is only the second Amp I have owned and I have a lot of listening to do as I am beat from work and getting the NAD Masters M25 down and the SimAudio Titan up.

I dare anyone to tell me these Amps sound the same. The NAD was a great Amp but the Titan is at a totally different level.

I am lucky in that I was able to buy the speakers I have lusted over for what seems like forever last year and I have always said in the owners thread that I think sometimes I love the Center more than the mains It is incredible.

In my short three hours of listening, the Titan has grabbed my Center by the balls and it has made a significant difference. The amount of bass, clarity and neutrality is incredible. I really wish you could hear what I am hearing right now. I have had the NAD for almost two years and the speakers for a year so I am very familiar with the difference in sound.

I have just started to dive into stereo and it sounds fantastic.

I don't want to post more until I really get into some testing but I will fight the "amps all sound the same" until the bitter end.

Some will say its new and your excited. No doubt. I am excited because this Amp has completely taken my Dynaudio Confidence front stage out of hibernation. Perhaps the NAD was not as neutral sounding as I thought?

Amp quality, speaker quality? Both? Don't know and the NAD M25 is a more than fine Amp but I can assure you that the Titan is something special in a multi channel Amp. What must their Evolution series sound like?

More to come.

Rick
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

What must their Evolution series sound like?

The same

TURN IT UP!
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

The same

Very Good
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:45 PM
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At least you have a sense of humor, I was afraid you'd go and get your power cords all in a twist.

TURN IT UP!
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:12 AM
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What HiFi reckons the Primare SPA21 is the holy grail of surround receivers for audio quality. Anyone here have one?

They give my Onkyo SR505 5/5 and that is based mostly on sound quality so unless I spend big bucks I don't think I will get better sound out of an amp. More power sure but I live in an apartment so don't need more power.
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Old 02-11-2009, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post


I dare anyone to tell me these Amps sound the same. The NAD was a great Amp but the Titan is at a totally different level.



Rick


The "flatliners" will. krabapple's fine work in shutting down the all CD players sound the same thread will likely be repeated here.

Enjoy the new amp! Great choice, IMHO.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Call it or not call it whatever you want. The point is despite very strong suggestion, desire and anticipation, I still didn't hear a dam thing.

The road to salvation begins with small steps.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 02-11-2009, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

Well I received my new Amp this afternoon. This is only the second Amp I have owned and I have a lot of listening to do as I am beat from work and getting the NAD Masters M25 down and the SimAudio Titan up.

I dare anyone to tell me these Amps sound the same. The NAD was a great Amp but the Titan is at a totally different level.

I am lucky in that I was able to buy the speakers I have lusted over for what seems like forever last year and I have always said in the owners thread that I think sometimes I love the Center more than the mains It is incredible.

In my short three hours of listening, the Titan has grabbed my Center by the balls and it has made a significant difference. The amount of bass, clarity and neutrality is incredible. I really wish you could hear what I am hearing right now. I have had the NAD for almost two years and the speakers for a year so I am very familiar with the difference in sound.

I have just started to dive into stereo and it sounds fantastic.

I don't want to post more until I really get into some testing but I will fight the "amps all sound the same" until the bitter end.

Some will say its new and your excited. No doubt. I am excited because this Amp has completely taken my Dynaudio Confidence front stage out of hibernation. Perhaps the NAD was not as neutral sounding as I thought?

Amp quality, speaker quality? Both? Don't know and the NAD M25 is a more than fine Amp but I can assure you that the Titan is something special in a multi channel Amp. What must their Evolution series sound like?

More to come.

Rick

Looking forward to more details of your comparison. Which Dynaudios?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:


I dare anyone to tell me these Amps sound the same. The NAD was a great Amp but the Titan is at a totally different level.


Post the specs, measurements then we can discuss. If the measurements/specs are very similar then obviously they will sound the same because they should sound the same. Audio has NO MAGIC in it, those who believe in MAGIC have a right to believe in anything but do not post about that same MAGIC on a science forum

Btw, did you do a proper ABX test? If you didn't then test is not valid.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Post the specs, measurements then we can discuss. If the measurements/specs are very similar then obviously they will sound the same because they should sound the same. Audio has NO MAGIC in it, those who believe in MAGIC have a right to believe in anything but do not post about that same MAGIC on a science forum

Btw, did you do a proper ABX test? If you didn't then test is not valid.

Have you LOOKED at the two amps? Isn't it obvious from how much better the Titan looks, that it MUST sound better?

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Old 02-11-2009, 07:27 AM
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here are the specs on each.....


M25

Power Amplifier
Continuous power out into 8 ohms 7 x >160 W (22.0 dBW)
Rated distortion (THD 20Hz-20kHz) 0.03%
Clipping power (0.1% THD) >180W
IHF dynamic headroom at 4 ohms 3.9dBW
IHF dynamic power 8 ohms >220 W (23.4 dBW)
4 ohms >385 W (25.9 dBW)
2 ohms >485 W (26.9 dBW)
Damping factor >180 W
Frequency response 20Hz-20kHz ±0.2 dB
3Hz/70kHz -3dB
Input impedance R and C >1 Mohms;C = 180 pF
Input sensitivity (for rated output into 8 ohms) 1250mV+/-50mV
Voltage gain 29.0dB
Signal to noise ratio, A-weighted ref. 1W >-96dB
>-118dB
Physical Specification
Dimensions (W×H×D) Imperial 17 x 7 7/8 x 18 3/8”
Metric 435 x 200 x 465.6mm
Net Weight Imperial 96.3 lbs
Metric 43.7 kg
Shipping Weight Imperial 112.3 lbs
Metric 51.0 kg


and the Titan amp

Type Solid State
Configuration 3 or 5 channels
Power Supply Transformer(s) 2 x 1.1kVA
Power Supply Capacitance 216,000µF
Class Of Operation A/AB
RCA Input 1 per channel
Balanced Input 1 XLR per channel
Input Impedance 24,900 ohms
Input Sensitivity 1420mV RMS
Output Device Type Bipolars - 8 per channel
Output Binding Posts 5-way / Gold-plated / Shielded
Output Power @ 8 ohms 200 Watts
Output Power @ 4 ohms 400 Watts
Frequency Response 10Hz - 100kHz +0/-3dB
Output Impedance 0.01 ohms
Damping Factor (static) 800
Signal-to-noise Ratio 100dB @ full power
Maximum Output Voltage 42 Volts
Slew Rate 80V/µs
Maximum Current - Peak / Continuous 30 amperes / 15 amperes
Crosstalk @ 1kHz -90dB
Intermodulation Distortion Unmeasureable
THD @ 1 watt / @ 200 watts (20Hz-20kHz) < 0.02 % / < 0.05 %

So what specs would make the Titan a better amp to you....could it be the look of it, the name, the price tag?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:29 AM
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Quote:


Have you LOOKED at the two amps? Isn't it obvious from how much better the Titan looks, that it MUST sound better?

lol, I beat me to that comment

I looked at both OVERPRICED amps (note I own OVERPRICED amps too) They are wimpy amps in my books, if someone is going waste that much money then they should be getting 500W/ch into 8 ohms and not the CRAP 200W/ch.....its funny how people brag about being smart audio people but then make silly decisions. Hey, I waste about 10K a year gambling but I would never say its a smart thing to do....its just a pure rush and I do win 20K sometimes

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Old 02-11-2009, 07:29 AM
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oops, my titan specs didnt copy!!

Fixed, I have to be honest there are some nice specs on the Titan amp!! Although I would still want atleast 400W/ch into 8 ohms for that price tag.

The NAD specs do not impress me one bit, NAD knows how to snow people out of their money

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Old 02-11-2009, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Post the specs, measurements then we can discuss. If the measurements/specs are very similar then obviously they will sound the same because they should sound the same. Audio has NO MAGIC in it, those who believe in MAGIC have a right to believe in anything but do not post about that same MAGIC on a science forum

Btw, did you do a proper ABX test? If you didn't then test is not valid.

M25

Power Amplifier
Continuous power out into 8 ohms 7 x >160 W (22.0 dBW)
Rated distortion (THD 20Hz-20kHz) 0.03%
Clipping power (0.1% THD) >180W
IHF dynamic headroom at 4 ohms 3.9dBW
IHF dynamic power 8 ohms >220 W (23.4 dBW)
4 ohms >385 W (25.9 dBW)
2 ohms >485 W (26.9 dBW)
Damping factor >180 W
Frequency response 20Hz-20kHz ±0.2 dB
3Hz/70kHz -3dB
Input impedance R and C >1 Mohms;C = 180 pF
Input sensitivity (for rated output into 8 ohms) 1250mV+/-50mV
Voltage gain 29.0dB
Signal to noise ratio, A-weighted ref. 1W >-96dB
>-118dB

Titan

Type Solid State
Configuration 3 or 5 channels
Power Supply Transformer(s) 2 x 1.1kVA
Power Supply Capacitance 216,000µF
Class Of Operation A/AB
RCA Input 1 per channel
Balanced Input 1 XLR per channel
Input Impedance 24,900 ohms
Input Sensitivity 1420mV RMS
Output Device Type Bipolars - 8 per channel
Output Binding Posts 5-way / Gold-plated / Shielded
Output Power @ 8 ohms 200 Watts
Output Power @ 4 ohms 400 Watts
Frequency Response 10Hz - 100kHz +0/-3dB
Output Impedance 0.01 ohms
Damping Factor (static) 800
Signal-to-noise Ratio 100dB @ full power
Maximum Output Voltage 42 Volts
Slew Rate 80V/µs
Maximum Current - Peak / Continuous 30 amperes / 15 amperes
Crosstalk @ 1kHz -90dB
Intermodulation Distortion Unmeasureable
THD @ 1 watt / @ 200 watts (20Hz-20kHz) < 0.02 % / < 0.05 %

Radio Shack SPL Meter was all I had time for last night after installing the amp.

More to follow.

Rick
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

oops, my titan specs didnt copy!!

Fixed, I have to be honest there are some nice specs on the Titan amp!! Although I would still want atleast 400W/ch into 8 ohms for that price tag.

The NAD specs do not impress me one bit, NAD knows how to snow people out of their money

I bought a nine month old Titan off Audiogon for above 50% off MSRP. It is mint. Looks new.

Rick
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:37 AM
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Thanks Rick, I did look for the specs..EDITED, you just answered that question.

Nicely done !!! I love audiogon for products, I buy my Sunfires from there when there is a great deal.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:40 AM
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Titan

Power Supply Transformer(s) 2 x 1.1kVA
Power Supply Capacitance 216,000µF
Slew Rate 80V/µs

I wonder what the M25 values would be......

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post


Btw, did you do a proper ABX test? If you didn't then test is not valid.

My motto on audio has always been based on Veni, vidi, vici.

"I came I listened I purchased."


It's allot more fun than going the three blind mouse route.
IMHO of course


(and generally more accurate)

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Old 02-11-2009, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

My motto on audio has always been based on Veni, vidi, vici.

"I came I listened I purchased."


It's allot more fun than going the three blind mouse route.
IMHO of course


(and generally more accurate)



I hope you understand that I 100% agree with you....I buy what I like and not what measures well or others like but that has little do with an online forum like this.

Im all for people buying what they love, if something sounds great to you then buy it. Im against people posting on a AV Science site that their purchase somehow automatically becomes "best product" and everyone else should buy it because it sounds great to you.....that is a HUGE problem on this site. If people want zero arguements with their opinion people should post the measurements/specs to support their opinion that its the best choice.

Once again post product A sounded better then product B without going through the proper tests is jsut a bogus post and should not happen. Bias is too strong for that opinion to have any meaning.

In the end people are going to be as happy with product A as they are with product B as long as both have a strong following

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Old 02-11-2009, 08:00 AM
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I'd use that same motto if I was selling stuff.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:00 AM
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One other thing on the Titan since its a Class Of Operation A/AB, you can use it as a space heater in the winter too

Gotta love a $3K (6K new) audio product that wastes more energy then it uses maybe that is why it only does 200W

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

Well I received my new Amp this afternoon. This is only the second Amp I have owned and I have a lot of listening to do as I am beat from work and getting the NAD Masters M25 down and the SimAudio Titan up.

I dare anyone to tell me these Amps sound the same. The NAD was a great Amp but the Titan is at a totally different level.

I am lucky in that I was able to buy the speakers I have lusted over for what seems like forever last year and I have always said in the owners thread that I think sometimes I love the Center more than the mains It is incredible.

In my short three hours of listening, the Titan has grabbed my Center by the balls and it has made a significant difference. The amount of bass, clarity and neutrality is incredible. I really wish you could hear what I am hearing right now. I have had the NAD for almost two years and the speakers for a year so I am very familiar with the difference in sound.

I have just started to dive into stereo and it sounds fantastic.

I don't want to post more until I really get into some testing but I will fight the "amps all sound the same" until the bitter end.

Some will say its new and your excited. No doubt. I am excited because this Amp has completely taken my Dynaudio Confidence front stage out of hibernation. Perhaps the NAD was not as neutral sounding as I thought?

Amp quality, speaker quality? Both? Don't know and the NAD M25 is a more than fine Amp but I can assure you that the Titan is something special in a multi channel Amp. What must their Evolution series sound like?

More to come.

Rick

Sir! Put down the bottled water and back away from the magic unicorn!!

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Old 02-11-2009, 08:03 AM
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I am lucky in that I was able to buy the speakers I have lusted over for what seems like forever last year

CETA, did you post the speakers you are using? With all the $$$ in PRE/PRO and AMPS, I can imagine your speakers are 10K+!

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Old 02-11-2009, 08:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

CETA, did you post the speakers you are using? With all the $$$ in PRE/PRO and AMPS, I can imagine your speakers are 10K+!

Dynaudio Confidence C1, Confidence Center and Dynaudio Focus 110's for surrounds for now.

NAD M15 pre/pro for now
Rega Saturn CDP
REL Britannia B2 Sub
SimAudio Titan Amp

Coming together nicely....
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