"Official" All amps sound the same thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

eh hem...
agreed. but i would nt assume that NO ONE here understands psychology. some of us do it for a living

i would personally put a lot more faith in the blind listening tests if people were to take 2 amps, listen to them for a few months in their system and then do blind testing. would any of the objectivists object to this change in the testing paradigm?

it may be possible that both sides are correct--in initial tests with unfamiliar equipment and an unfamiliar room that initial blind tests would not demonstrate statistically different results with regard to stimulus discrimination but in ones own familiar system with listening experience that they could become discernable. This would eliminate much of the environmental unfamiliarity as a confounding factor as well as allow for listeners to recognize smaller differences if they are there.

good post,

did I say no one understands psychologythough??????
If so, my bad. Nothing is absolute.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #542 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TPnBobcats View Post

You don't seem to have a problem telling other people what they feel and think. In fact you claim you know better than they do what they feel and think.



Yes, why should your opinions be bothered with annoying things like facts and evidence or proof.

Wait are you actually Stephen Colbert?



No you don't bate or belittle, you just tell people they are clueless, arrogant and that you know best... Oh wait you do bait and belittle and you aren't being helpful.

But thanks for your efforts in trying to make sure everyone expresses correct ideas as defined by you.

Did you have a point?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #543 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by TPnBobcats View Post

From the web comic xkcd (http://xkcd.com/)


GREAT POST, LMAO

Thanks


i think a few of us here can identify

What a conundrum you are. One great post and one, well.......

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #544 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

I was waiting for you No clipping, sorry.

I have a lot of listening to do and things are asku now as I have a new flat screen coming on Friday(no more toys for 2009 ) but there is no denying that the Titan is a very nice step up from the NAD. I am off Friday so this is really going to be my play day and some serious blu-ray and stereo comps.

I really don't want to talk about this until I really get to play on Friday and this weekend but I am hearing some really nice sound with this Amp with casual listening.

You would be able to tell the difference as well and you will just have to take or leave it at that.

I am always the type to admit if I have made an audio/video mistake and I have no problem speaking up about it. Find my thoughts about the beloved Pioneer 6020 as an example. Lets just say I am not a fan.

These Amps do not sound the same and you really would be better served coming out to play a little in the real world than living with a pdf file from a website.

Pick up a Titan and I will sell you my NAD for a good price and you can compare yourself.

I probably won't say much else until this weekend.

I understand both camps really. But I'm right

Ohh and my Rega Saturn CDP sounds better than CD playback thru my Denon blu-ray 3800 so .....
Rick

Nice post. As well as the one or two others you've done in this thread.

I totally agree with you on amp differences.

But don't feed the trolls; i.e. DW

I strongly suggest that your next post be back in the "We're back and a new "journey" has begun: amps and preamps" thread.

i.e.: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...019640&page=27

This thread has become an out of control zoo.

Cheers

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #545 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 07:29 AM
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i would personally put a lot more faith in the blind listening tests if people were to take 2 amps, listen to them for a few months in their system and then do blind testing. would any of the objectivists object to this change in the testing paradigm?

I like that appoarch too! All I care is that people who want to post about how any amps sound atleast try to be less subjective.

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post #546 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 07:30 AM
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Why such a combative post? It is laced with so much inaccuracy I am not sure how to begin.

Sorry about that

The post wasnt really directed at you....the "you" was again a generic "you" as in anyone that wants to be 100% subjective about their experience when trying to convince someone else to buy the same product.

I should have used a different word...it happens!

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post #547 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Yes, what good is a teacher if he first closes the mind?

So, because his tone wasn't concilliatory enough you closed your mind or is it that others closed theirs? I've had amicable teachers and I've had hard nosed, demanding ones. If you want to learn you will. Nothing he said registered with you?

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post #548 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

It's funny that there are so many self proclaimed pop psychologists here and not one that understands human psychology.

You claim to want people to be nicer in their responses, and be more open-minded, and then you drop something like this which is so utterly demeaning and flat-out dismissive of all of the credible, scientific information that has been provided. So no one here understands human psychology except for you? Get real.

If you want to say, "who cares about this science and blind testing nonsense, just go with what sounds good to you!" that's fine and dandy, but don't claim that the science that is being presented is not sound if you don't even understand it. Why do you keep attempting to stray into the scientific part of the debate when you seem utterly unwilling to listen and learn?

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well you and your kind do as well with the very tiresome mantra of "buy the cheapest crap you can, they're all the same".

you have to have set some kind of world record for completely misunderstanding other people's points. when has ANYONE ever suggested what you just claimed was the mantra of "our kind"?

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post #549 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

i would personally put a lot more faith in the blind listening tests if people were to take 2 amps, listen to them for a few months in their system and then do blind testing. would any of the objectivists object to this change in the testing paradigm?

Denophile - In ABX testing you can take as long as you want with the different options. And you are perfectly welcome to have as long of a "familiarization" period as you desire before the blind portion begins, in fact this is regularly a part of these tests as in several of the articles that have been linked. And in many of the test you are free to choose your own gear, speakers, room, etc. so you can use two amps you are already familiar with. As long as when the ABX portion begins, you have level-matched and controlled for other biases properly. (JJ or anyone please correct me if I have misrepresented the protocol at all).

The limits on that are more about the practicality/logistics than a violation of the protocol. The thing is though, auditory memory is so fleeting that I highly doubt it would make a difference.

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post #550 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

eh hem...
agreed. but i would nt assume that NO ONE here understands psychology. some of us do it for a living

i would personally put a lot more faith in the blind listening tests if people were to take 2 amps, listen to them for a few months in their system and then do blind testing. would any of the objectivists object to this change in the testing paradigm?

What change? The very first ABX test was done by someone who took two amps, listened to them for a few months in their home system and then did the blind, level-matched testing.

The year was 1975 or 1976, the amps were a Dyna 400 (200wpc) and the amplifier section of a Heath AR 1500 (60 wpc). The listener was me.

The outcome of the evaluation, which involved long and short term ABX tests after all of the sighted long term listening to the two amps, was no differences.

There is considerable science and experience that says that long term listening tests are good for finding situations where amps sound different with certain musical passages, but are rotten for actual comparisons.

The Science says that our memory for detailed comparionsons for sounds is less than a minute. After a minute or less, our memory of sound becomes highly distilled, and is dominated by memories of patterns and characteristics of the sound, not the sound itself.

As far as practical experience with long term listening goes, please check out
"Flying Blind"

http://www.nousaine.com/uploader/files.php
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post #551 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post




you have to have set some kind of world record for completely misunderstanding other people's points. when has ANYONE ever suggested what you just claimed was the mantra of "our kind"?


not my post.

Not that you know or care.

What does that tell us?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #552 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:27 AM
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"buy the cheapest crap you can, they're all the same".

Im in the category of people that know amps sound more similar then different but Im also the guy that buys 5 to 10 amps a year and tests them so thinking that my spin is all about saving money would be absolutely wrong. I love to waste $$$ on lots of things and I will do so over and over to prove my points or prove to myself what the truth is.

All I can says is that I would hope all those "subjective believers" would alteast go through the proper tests if they are SO SURE of themselves...surprisingly the ALL back off and try and just say the tests are not needed.

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post #553 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Sorry about that

The post wasnt really directed at you....the "you" was again a generic "you" as in anyone that wants to be 100% subjective about their experience when trying to convince someone else to buy the same product.

I should have used a different word...it happens!

I think it foolish to not respect all the literature available.
I have noticed no one suggest that they are 100% subjective.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #554 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im in the category of people that know amps sound more similar then different but Im also the guy that buys 5 to 10 amps a year and tests them so thinking that my spin is all about saving money would be absolutely wrong. I love to waste $$$ on lots of things and I will do so over and over to prove my points or prove to myself what the truth is.

All I can says is that I would hope all those "subjective believers" would alteast go through the proper tests if they are SO SURE of themselves...surprisingly the ALL back off and try and just say the tests are not needed.

But you see I agree with you that "amps sound more similar then different."
I just think that if I, you or a kid on this board does hear a difference it is not my nor anyones roll to call him a liar, stupid, or anything else because he may be right.
I will not accept that a book full of graphs can tell me definitively what I hear however.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #555 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:51 AM
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I just think that if I, you or a kid on this board does hear a difference it is not my nor anyones roll to call him a liar, stupid, or anything else because he may be right.
I will not accept that a book full of graphs can tell me definitively what I hear however.

I think you jump to conclusions, all people ever asks is if the person did a proper test to find out if there is a difference. If the person wants to argue after that suggestion then we can put them in their place (a wink and a smile because Im being sarcastic there....just so there isnt any confusion).

Someone posting "I could tell a difference" without anything else is simply a wasted post and should be deleted (IMO). It has no merits on its own and therefore helps NO ONE.

Posts should help people, when the OP is askiing for help so lets help them instead of posting simply subjective BS. If people can not help out better then "I could tell a difference" maybe they should not try and help anyone

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #556 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:53 AM
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Eljr, have you ever been involved with any ABX testing?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #557 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 10:55 AM
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I will not accept that a book full of graphs can tell me definitively what I hear however.

I forgot to ask, what sounds are you hearing that can not be measured?

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post #558 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

not my post.

Not that you know or care.

oops you are correct, and I do care about accuracy (which you don't seem to, mr "flatliner"). I'm happy to concede a mistake.

however it's not like you haven't made the exact same point in accusing those who disagree with you of simply wanting to justify being cheap.

and you still ignored the rest of my post which was (correctly ) intended for you in response to your quote, dismissively accusing all of us of being "pop psychologists". pretty ignorant statement considering several of the folks you choose to ignore are actual researchers in the field, the very opposite of "pop" anything.

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I think it foolish to not respect all the literature available.

now that is ironic.

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post #559 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

But you see I agree with you that "amps sound more similar then different."
I just think that if I, you or a kid on this board does hear a difference it is not my nor anyones roll to call him a liar, stupid, or anything else because he may be right.

Of course they may be right but usually there's not much rigor involved in the evaluations. Further, the very possibility that one's older piece of equipment has gradually deteriorated to the point that a new candidate will certainly sound different/better is never addressed.
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I will not accept that a book full of graphs can tell me definitively what I hear however.

No one has made that argument. Perhaps you don't understand the graphs.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #560 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

What benefits are we missing?

I have done enough tests to know that blind ABX testing shows that people have high rates of suggestive decision making so any time anyone buys any of these products and not doing the blind ABX testing they are only fooling themselves into think a certain product is so much better then the next product.

The next problem is the audiophile exaggeration syndrome, gotta love the BS subjective adjectives some people use to describe the difference between two amps. The truth in the end is that any distortion differences is in the less then 1% range and very, very close to in-audible.

You laugh at those who do all the science stuff behind audio and post 100s of research papers with conclusions you do not agree with, You laugh at those who try to testing amps at the purest level. You laugh at science telling you there are very few difference, how about doing the blind ABX testing and then come back with an opinion, it seems you guys do not want to go down that path....I wonder what does that really say about you in the end?

You can enjoy your equipment because its your money but just stop passing your conclusions off as anything remotely scientifically accurate. This is a AV SCIENCE forum so if you want to exaggerate your 100% subjective experience somewhere there are lots of fluff HiFi websites out there that toll the subjective line

Good post.

But then again maybe we should grade amps only on the FDI (Flowery Description Index), as it seems to be the only one that is consistent and invariable.

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QSC Audio Products, LLC
Costa Mesa, Calif.

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post #561 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:15 PM
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How can all amps sound the same?
There are too many variables.
I can tell you that my 1980 carver M400 amp makes putt-putting noises and has a low s/n ratio. My NAD 3020 walks all over it.
Hook that carver M400 up to ultra efficient klipsch Heresey's and the hiss from the horn overpowers the music.
I hooked up 4 advent 1s to my Pioneer SX780 receiver in 1980 and heard audible buzzing with volume turned all the way down.

i know, iknow somebodies going to say the Pioneer receiver was being operated outside of it's impedence capability, but a well designed high current amp that can handle 2ohm loads is going to have qualities that the barely capable 4ohm amp will never possess.
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post #562 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:27 PM
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How can all amps sound the same?

Why do people keep posting this question? No one has ever said ALL amps sound the same. Did you just read the title and none of the thread contents ?



People are making an assumption that any properly built amp will not color (distort the sound), it will just amplify it. Therefore we will say the following.....


Properly built amps with very similar specs should and do sound the same and I have $$$$ for anyone to prove that wrong!

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post #563 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:28 PM
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1980 carver M400 amp makes putt-putting noises and has a low s/n ratio.

Well it doesn't really have a low s/n ratio now does it.....have you tested it lately?

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post #564 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by b4z View Post

How can all amps sound the same?
There are too many variables.
I can tell you that my 1980 carver M400 amp makes putt-putting noises and has a low s/n ratio. My NAD 3020 walks all over it.
Hook that carver M400 up to ultra efficient klipsch Heresey's and the hiss from the horn overpowers the music.
I hooked up 4 advent 1s to my Pioneer SX780 receiver in 1980 and heard audible buzzing with volume turned all the way down.

i know, iknow somebodies going to say the Pioneer receiver was being operated outside of it's impedence capability, but a well designed high current amp that can handle 2ohm loads is going to have qualities that the barely capable 4ohm amp will never possess.

You are missing a very important part.

"All other things, being equal"

The question isn't if some amps are better suited or able to drive certain kinds of speakers/loads.

Anyone with a just a passing acquaintance with the basics of electrical engineering can tell you that there are substantial differences in the ability of amps to handle different speakers/loads.

The question is IF you take a set of speakers that both amps can drive.

IF you then match the volume levels, so you aren't getting different loudnesses and one amp isn't clipping while the other is not.

IF you then conduct a double blind randomized test to eliminate pattern sequences and "hints" the test administrator might be accidentally giving.

I'm probably forgetting or overlooking possible factors, but this is the general idea.

IF you do all this, can most people tell the differences between the two amps? Will all the flowery language about one or the other being "Airy", "Transparent", "Tight", "Harsh", etc... go away.

That IS the question.

You can always "Break" a comparison if you crock things sufficiently to the advantage of one or the other. Any idiot can do that.
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post #565 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:40 PM
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You are missing a very important part.

To be fair, many are just being pendatic with the simple title 'all amps are the same', the title should have been 'all amps with similar specs that are built properly will sound the same'


I love the Bel Canto vs Wryed4Sound comparison....HUGE $$$$ difference but same actually parts....guess what some Bel Canto owners will say

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post #566 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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If I could redo the title, it would be

'Do all amps sound the same?'

My title seems to reflect a bias, and that was not my intent, sorry.

I don't know why amps would similar specs have to sound the same. If someone could hear the distortion from two amps, it could be the same amount (% THD+N,) but sound different, don't you think?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #567 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

To be fair, many are just being pendatic with the simple title 'all amps are the same', the title should have been 'all amps with similar specs that are built properly will sound the same'

They don't even need to have specs that are that close, so long as you aren't setting the conditions so that you hit the limits of one, but not the other.

An inaudible level of distortion is, well... inaudible. Doesn't matter if it's .001% or .0000000000001%. If you can't hear either, it doesn't matter.
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post #568 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 12:59 PM
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I thought the point of this was:will you hear a difference if you exchage an amp within your system? I understand about all the different variables, but what I was interested in was.
If i exchange a 5 x 200 HT amp in my system with a different manufacturer (upgrade?) will this truely be a noticable upgrade.

If amp Z is $100 for a 5 x 200
amp Y is $1000 for a 5 x 200 &
amp X is $10,000 for a 5 x 200

Within my system (which is really the only one that counts, because that is the one I listen to) will there be a difference?

The amp then becomes the only varible as my room, sources, wires speakers ect. will all remain the same.

I also thought a good amp will not have a particular sound, and will truely amplify with no "signature" or "color" added. These preferances are the listeners choice on source equipment they have selected.

I am on the fence about expanding my system to 7.1. I have a 5 x 200 amp. I am researching on adding two more channels of amplification. Do I get a new two channel for the mains? or a baby for the added 2 channels?
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post #569 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 01:02 PM
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I don't know why amps would similar specs have to sound the same. If someone could hear the distortion from two amps, it could be the same amount (% THD+N,) but sound different, don't you think?

Absolutely. But in practice, very few amps have audible amounts of THD, unless they're stressed. That's why, even though they don't have to sound the same, most amps nonetheless do under most circumstances.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #570 of 2642 Old 02-12-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:


If i exchange a 5 x 200 HT amp in my system with a different manufacturer (upgrade?) will this truely be a noticable upgrade.

If amp Z is $100 for a 5 x 200
amp Y is $1000 for a 5 x 200 &
amp X is $10,000 for a 5 x 200

Within my system (which is really the only one that counts, because that is the one I listen to) will there be a difference?

The answer, I'm afraid, is, It depends. And it depends because "5x200" tells you very little about how well the amp will drive your speakers. What does the impedance curve of your speakers look like? What is the real power output of these amps when driving 5 speakers with that (or those) impedance curve(s)?

In practice (I keep using this phrase), I'd say it's highly unlikely that any "200-watt" amp with a remotely honest spec sheet is going to be audibly distinguishable from any other unless you have some very unusual speakers and a very large room to fill.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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