"Official" All amps sound the same thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2642 Old 02-15-2009, 06:25 AM
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I don't think AVS means it to be literally meant as a science forum. It is a forum for people interested in Home Theater and from all walks of life. I think they chose the word "science" just to be catchy and it is not an actual scientific forum for scientists of audio.


I do think Science is part of this site, I have been in involved with more forums then ANYONE else here. From HTPC building, Home Theater building, acoustical treatments/DIY screens, Speaker and Sub building, Home Audio/video distribution, Audio theory and so on.

The core of all threads is the science behind any and all of the technologies. People know about monoprice.com because of the science behind understanding how cables/wires are built. People know you do not have to fortune on getting a great sound room....examples....

People want to spend $10K on an amp or even $3K, I would say people are not educated at all about the science if they didnt treat their room first, if people understood the science more then would know this but we still have ignorant audiophiles boasting about their $10K+ setups and they have zero treatments, that is laughable!

People know that spending hundreds or thousand just on wire/cable is dump because of science!

People know that they should spend more on the speakers then they should on AVRs and Pro amps because of science, those who do not are not educated enough and we need to do better!

The reason things are done right around here is because of science and not fluffy exaggerations of individual experience!

You can choose to ignore science or think it just a catchy phrase for the website owners or you can realize that science helps the rest of us build better systems then you have

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #632 of 2642 Old 02-15-2009, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ^kev View Post

That is what I am starting to think.


They to the "amps sounding the same" opinion is the actual build specs.

Its really simple, if two companies build amps with the idea that those amps will not color (distort) sound then both amps will sound the same when playing sound at about 90 dB or close to 1W of power.

The key is the fact that two companies need to actually worry about NOT distorting the sound. Undistorted sound will sound the same no matter what price tag/label/color or name is on the box!

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post #633 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Undistorted sound will sound the same no matter what price tag/label/color or name is on the box!

Sure it will.

But just like various driver/enclosure/crossover designs and configurations can alter the final sound waves that emanate from a pair of speakers, different amplifier components/circuitry can have an (albeit more subtle) effect on the signal that gets relayed to said speakers.

It has been said here that amplifier can realistically only degrade signal quality if it is pushed past reference levels. This, in my opinion, is a moot point. The fact is that more expensive amplifiers can (in general) be pushed to much higher power levels without distorting, which not only allows one to play sources at higher decibel levels, but also experience a fuller dynamic range (which are becoming more and more limited due to the introduction of recordings engineered to be "loud" all the time, and designed to be more "resistant" to compression for playing on digital audio players - but this is whole other topic). In the same vein, more powerful amplifiers enable one to get more out of less efficient speakers.

The problem is that when you increase power, you also increase the potential for signal noise. This is why more expensive amplifiers have more stringent (expensive) capacitors and components such as torroid power supplies (at least in A/B class amps) while cheaper ones do not.

Therefore, the advantage of a more expensive amplifier is mainly signal noise reduction at higher power (ie, microphonics imparted by input capacitors to RF interference from power circuitry which surrounds the signal path). I would agree that the vast majority of modern amplifiers (even the ones in budget AVRs) have undergone enough iterations to make these sources of noise negligible at their reference decibel levels. But not everyone wants to be limited by the reference decibel levels of a budget 50 wpc A/B amplifier.

Then there is the age old question of amplifier class. While all A/B amplifiers may sound similar at reference volumes, what about tubes or T-class amps? In the case of the latter, does the use of a transistor to "sample" and create, what is in effect a digital-like signal produce a different signature than other designs? They supposedly sound more like tube amplifiers - a function of their relatively low current requirements due to their "sampling" technique.

I currently own a run of the mill, recent Denon AVR. I have been wondering for a while whether different amplifier designs could really make a perceptible difference in my music listening. Recently I came across a T-class amplifier that, unlike the low wattage limitations of other models, is rated at 60wpc. As it was reasonably affordable, I decided to order one (Virtue Audio). I can't wait to do some A/B testing between this amp and my Denon...
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post #634 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Let us know what you hear

I wanted to AB my Mackie vs. my Yamaha but I could not find an affordable amplifier switcher. And I don't trust my hearing comparisons if it takes too long to switch from one amp to another.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #635 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 04:00 PM
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Since amps do a significant part of their work at low powers, I'm more interested in the 'noise' under those conditions.

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post #636 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynan View Post

I currently own a run of the mill, recent Denon AVR. I have been wondering for a while whether different amplifier designs could really make a perceptible difference in my music listening. Recently I came across a T-class amplifier that, unlike the low wattage limitations of other models, is rated at 60wpc. As it was reasonably affordable, I decided to order one (Virtue Audio). I can't wait to do some A/B testing between this amp and my Denon...

Conduct a decently randomized double blind testing and I'll be fascinated to hear the results.
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post #637 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cynan View Post

But just like various driver/enclosure/crossover designs and configurations can alter the final sound waves that emanate from a pair of speakers, different amplifier components/circuitry can have an (albeit more subtle) effect on the signal that gets relayed to said speakers.

Certainly anything can be designed and built incompetently. They don't need to be, though.

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post #638 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TPnBobcats View Post

Conduct a decently randomized double blind testing and I'll be fascinated to hear the results.

And please level match.

We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.
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post #639 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I wanted to AB my Mackie vs. my Yamaha but I could not find an affordable amplifier switcher. And I don't trust my hearing comparisons if it takes too long to switch from one amp to another.

I posted a couple of weeks ago a suggestion that anyone serious about comparing amps might want to borrow this fellow's ABX box:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post15034395
(you pay the shipping). I don't know if the ABX box includes level-matching...maybe Bob Lee can illuminate us?
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post #640 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 06:41 PM
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For the technically minded amongst you:

http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm
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post #641 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I did not have time to read that article fully, it's late, and I drank a few adult beverages. But it looks very interesting, and I am going to try to come back and read it tomorrow.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #642 of 2642 Old 02-19-2009, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The reason things are done right around here is because of science and not fluffy exaggerations of individual experience!

I see plenty of "fluffy exaggerations" around here.

What I meant is that AVS is not just a forum for University educated scientific types just because it has the word science in the forum title.
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post #643 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by J.Harker View Post

I don't think AVS means it to be literally meant as a science forum. It is a forum for people interested in Home Theater and from all walks of life. I think they chose the word "science" just to be catchy and it is not an actual scientific forum for scientists of audio.

Why would you think that?

Common sense?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #644 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

My order of what makes a different sound.
1. Speakers
2. Amp
3. Room
4. Source
5. Cables (yup)

Looking forward to my own little compare here!

Rick

Nope, room acoustics and room treatments makes far more difference in SQ than the amp.
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post #645 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

, I have been in involved with more forums then ANYONE else here. From HTPC building, Home Theater building, acoustical treatments/DIY screens, Speaker and Sub building, Home Audio/video distribution, Audio theory and so on.

The core of all threads is the science behind any and all of the technologies. People know about monoprice.com because of the science behind understanding how cables/wires are built. People know you do not have to fortune on getting a great sound room....examples....

People want to spend $10K on an amp or even $3K, I would say people are not educated at all about the science if they didnt treat their room first, if people understood the science more then would know this but we still have ignorant audiophiles boasting about their $10K+ setups and they have zero treatments, that is laughable!

People know that spending hundreds or thousand just on wire/cable is dump because of science!

People know that they should spend more on the speakers then they should on AVRs and Pro amps because of science, those who do not are not educated enough and we need to do better!

The reason things are done right around here is because of science and not fluffy exaggerations of individual experience!

You can choose to ignore science or think it just a catchy phrase for the website owners or you can realize that science helps the rest of us build better systems then you have

For Pete's sake!

More threads than anybody? What kind of study did you do to come to that conclusion?

Monoprice? Science? BS! How about prices cheaper than dirt? Period!
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post #646 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 10:40 AM
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So the few reasons to buy an external amp are:
1) You like listening at VERY loud levels
2) You have hard to drive 4 Ohm speakers (does this include all 4ohm, or are there exceptions). I ask this because I have 4 Ohm speakers (Vienna Acoustic Mozart Grands) which are 90 db sensitive.
3) You like to spend money on equipment you think you need :P

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post #647 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

Monoprice? Science? BS! How about prices cheaper than dirt? Period!

The science comes into things, in that it tells us that horrifically expensive cables give you no advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

2) You have hard to drive 4 Ohm speakers (does this include all 4ohm, or are there exceptions). I ask this because I have 4 Ohm speakers (Vienna Acoustic Mozart Grands) which are 90 db sensitive.

AVR amps will drive 4 ohm speakers even if they tell you they aren't rated for them. So you can use them.

It's mostly that they don't do a good job of driving 4 ohm speakers and that typically external amps have an even greater power advantage over AVR amps, when driving 4 ohm speakers.

An ideal Amp should double it's output when the resistance of the load is halved. According to the equation Power = V^2/R (voltage squared divided by resistance). Most amps won't quite achieve this for other reasons, but a good external amp will increase it's output by a greater % than the amps in most AVRs.

Ex. The Emotiva XPA-5 I have, increases it's output from 200 wpc to 350 wpc, a 75% increase. By way of contrast, AVRs could be as low as 10%-25%, though it can be substantially higher. So it might go from 100 wpc to 130 wpc. Meaning that the XPA-5 is nearly x3 the power with 4 ohm speakers vs x2 for 8 ohm speakers.

IIRC one of the THX certs requires that the amps be able to drive 4 ohm speakers.
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post #648 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TPnBobcats View Post

The science comes into things, in that it tells us that horrifically expensive cables give you no advantage.

Yet most people believe that expensive cables are better. That is wrong, but it is the perception.

You like to live in your own little world, so I'll let you in on a little secret. If you haven't been on AVS forums or don't know somebody who has, you haven't heard of Monoprice. It's that simple. AVS users are probably their main buyers, with the occasional googler finding them. We sure as hell are the ones who continually tell new posters to buy from them. When you see a poll on the Electronic House newsletter asking about cable purchases, it's ALWAYS the "pros over at AVS" , then they'll quote a poster who recommends Monoprice. Most everybody else gets their stuff from some parts supplier advertising on Amazon, or pays too much at BB.

This forum is supposed to be about people sharing some expiriences and ideas, it doesn't ALWAYS have to be scientific in nature.
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post #649 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

Yet most people believe that expensive cables are better. That is wrong, but it is the perception.

You like to live in your own little world, so I'll let you in on a little secret. If you haven't been on AVS forums or don't know somebody who has, you haven't heard of Monoprice. It's that simple. AVS users are probably their main buyers, with the occasional googler finding them. We sure as hell are the ones who continually tell new posters to buy from them. When you see a poll on the Electronic House newsletter asking about cable purchases, it's ALWAYS the "pros over at AVS" , then they'll quote a poster who recommends Monoprice. Most everybody else gets their stuff from some parts supplier advertising on Amazon, or pays too much at BB.

This forum is supposed to be about people sharing some expiriences and ideas, it doesn't ALWAYS have to be scientific in nature.

If you can lower your nose enough to read this.

Thank you for condescending, to tell me how I live my life. It's extremely patronizing of you.

Clearly all your opinions are absolutely correct and anyone who disagrees with you is deranged or ignorant.

Yeah, monoprice gets recommended because people here know they produce a decent product at a reasonable price and they advertise on the site so they are easy to find.

I'm missing the part where I said they walk on water and heal the sick.

Nor do I recall anyone saying someone was stupid because they bought a similar product at a similar price somewhere else.
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post #650 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TPnBobcats View Post

If you can lower your nose enough to read this.

Thank you for condescending, to tell me how I live my life. It's extremely patronizing of you.

Clearly all your opinions are absolutely correct and anyone who disagrees with you is deranged or ignorant.

Yeah, monoprice gets recommended because people here know they produce a decent product at a reasonable price and they advertise on the site so they are easy to find.

I'm missing the part where I said they walk on water and heal the sick.

Nor do I recall anyone saying someone was stupid because they bought a similar product at a similar price somewhere else.


Emotiva, Oppo and monoprice all rock!
now what speakers to get......

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #651 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 02:13 PM
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Why Emotiva speakers of course!

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post #652 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Why Emotiva speakers of course!

But they have not gotten the press (here) the other named items have

Bose?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #653 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easyaspie View Post

You like to live in your own little world, so I'll let you in on a little secret. If you haven't been on AVS forums or don't know somebody who has, you haven't heard of Monoprice. It's that simple.

apparently somebody else lives in their own little world or do people not read CNET now, eh?

CNET HDMI CABLE BUYING RECOMMENDATIONS

Quote:


The editors at CNET are so confident that cheap HDMI cables offer identical performance, we've been using inexpensive Monoprice HDMI cables in the CNET Home Theater Lab for more than a year with no issues. That's saying a lot, especially when you consider that our video experts are constantly swapping in new products and changing configurations, which means our cables take much more abuse than they would in a normal home theater. We're also accustomed to making long cable runs, and many of our cables from Monoprice are 15 feet long.

.....

Here are a few of our favorite resellers, all of which offer solid return policies in case you do get a bum cable.

Monoprice.com sells all other kinds of quality AV cables at very reasonable prices. As we mentioned before, we use Monoprice cables in CNET Labs, and several CNET editors use Monoprice in their personal home theaters as well.

nice try though!

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post #654 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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What are Bobcat and easy arguing about? Lol

You both seem to be saying, yeah monoprice cables are inexpensive and work as good as more expensive cables. Yet you two are arguing. Maybe you should agree about WHAT you are arguing about?

Seems Penn started you arguing by posting something I did not even understand about monoprice being science. I am really confused. I see no real point for an argument from those parties.

I could start a real argument here - define audio reviewer terms.

Let's start with soundstage. How can a soundstage have depth in a two channel system? How can it have height? Seems impossible.

How about warmth? Does warmth mean highs are rolled off? Or is warmth the opposite of brightness, and brightness is some form of distortion?

How about 'digital sounding'? Do some class D amps sound 'digital'? Meaning, do they have a characteristic sound imparted by the fact that they sample the input signal? Or are reviewers biased by their perception of class D amps being digital?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #655 of 2642 Old 02-20-2009, 04:56 PM
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The fact is that more expensive amplifiers can (in general) be pushed to much higher power levels without distorting, which not only allows one to play sources at higher decibel levels, but also experience a fuller dynamic range (which are becoming more and more limited due to the introduction of recordings engineered to be "loud" all the time, and designed to be more "resistant" to compression for playing on digital audio players - but this is whole other topic).

Just to be clear. All amplifiers are always distorting when amplifying. It is merely a question of how much under a given set of circumstances.
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post #656 of 2642 Old 02-21-2009, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TPnBobcats View Post

Clearly all your opinions are absolutely correct and anyone who disagrees with you is deranged or ignorant.

Finally, you get it. Thank-you.

Just kidding. I didn't mean to argue about something so trivial. I just think that Monoprice wouldn't have nearly the sales they do if it wasn't for those of us on these forums. Word of mouth is what makes their sales.
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post #657 of 2642 Old 02-23-2009, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

I don't know if the ABX box includes level-matching...maybe Bob Lee can illuminate us?

If it's a QSC ABX comparator, then it has a built-in 1 kHz sine wave oscillator and digital voltmeter, specifically for the purpose of matching gains.

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QSC Audio Products, LLC
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post #658 of 2642 Old 02-26-2009, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

If it's a QSC ABX comparator, then it has a built-in 1 kHz sine wave oscillator and digital voltmeter, specifically for the purpose of matching gains.


Thanks, Bob.
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post #659 of 2642 Old 02-26-2009, 05:33 PM
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You ask, we deliver.

There's an article about this at Tom Nousaine's website. Here is the link:
"Can You Trust Your Ears?" (PDF file), Stereo Review, August 1997.
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If I used my Synth to create a sound that I have in my head and get a rasping sound that has a crispy, high frequency buzz to it and design the the sound using my headphones to hear what is going on. I sculpt it to my original idea perfectly.

If I then play it through my amp and speakers, it sounds more muffled and the sound is not the same and not what I wanted. The headphones cost £10 and the amp and speakers cost lots. If I then change my interconnect, it gets closer than the other (remember, I know what sound I wanted and can use the headphones and the speakers at the same time and cup the phones on and off to check), producing a more crispy sound that is closer but still a way off - the room?. If I plug the same headphones into the amp instead and listen again, it is closer but still not right by some degree.

My questions are these.

1. What sound is the Synth really making and what do you need to be able to hear that?!

2. Which setup should i trust and use to design my sound the way I want it and will everyone have to buy the same quipment as me to hear it as intended?
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