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post #3661 of 3689 Old 10-16-2014, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jprod View Post
I see your point on the a31 and tend to agree. To take it a step further, is it then more prudent to use an a21 and then have my 7 channel amp do the rest ? I personally do very very little music listening in my ht room.
The A21 is a slightly better amp than the A31/51 so yes. If you do very little music I am not sure how much you will gain to be honest for movies. I can handle Audyssey for movies but not for music if that makes sense. The A series are great amps so you can't go wrong.
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post #3662 of 3689 Old 10-16-2014, 06:16 PM
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I agree 100% I have the A21 and A31 and love them. My previous amp was an emotive Xpa5. I can say in my honest opinion all amps don't sound alike. These are awesome amps and I would love to add a couple of Jc1's to the family one day
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post #3663 of 3689 Old 10-16-2014, 08:57 PM
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That's funny I had an XPA-3 in my 2 channel system and replaced it with the A21. Big step up, and I'd never go back.
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post #3664 of 3689 Old 10-17-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
That's funny I had an XPA-3 in my 2 channel system and replaced it with the A21. Big step up, and I'd never go back.
Me either. Matter fact I plan on doing a second system with an A51 and legacy setup!
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post #3665 of 3689 Old 10-17-2014, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
That's funny I had an XPA-3 in my 2 channel system and replaced it with the A21. Big step up, and I'd never go back.
I had the XPA2 and the XPA3 (twice at different times) and really wanted to like them given their low price. I was going to keep them as a spare, but me being mainly a music guy, they just didn't sound great to my ears, just ok, didn't make my feet want to toe tap or my ears to perk up. I ended selling them. I own an A21 as a spare which I think for the money is a great amp. Used to own the A51 and JC1s. I' m now more into class A amps. Just ordered a Pass Labs XA30.5, going to see how they perform vs the A21. Between my A21 and a Marantz Reference integrated amp running a set of PSB Synchronys, I like the Marantz with the PSB. They mate well together, a bit more warm and musical than the A21.
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post #3666 of 3689 Old 10-18-2014, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post
The A21 is a slightly better amp than the A31/51 so yes. If you do very little music I am not sure how much you will gain to be honest for movies. I can handle Audyssey for movies but not for music if that makes sense. The A series are great amps so you can't go wrong.
Interesting in that its been said that if Audyssey works best for movies, it'll work best for music as well.

I see your point, though.

What I'm trying to figure out is if your room/system sounds better with Audyssey than without, if I'll get enough of an upgrade in sound to upgrade my amps to the Parasound A51 plus using an A21 for front LRs. I think part of this comparison depends heavily on which amps you're coming from. I'm coming from Rotel RMB 1095 and RB 991 which I'm sure sound better than some and not as good as others when play without room correction.

I have to say that earlier this week, I reran Audyssey on my Marantz 8801. The resulting sound is very good. I've pretty much talked myself out of upgrading to the parasounds but would be interested in hearing what others might have to say.

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post #3667 of 3689 Old 10-18-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Interesting in that its been said that if Audyssey works best for movies, it'll work best for music as well.
On the REW thread this goes back and forth. For movies, because of multi-channel-ness, Audyssey does a great job. But for music sometimes Audyssey muddies up the bass and/or makes the imaging less precise because of what it does.

Mind, this is hearsay from me because I am not currently using any room correction or EQ.

From what I've gathered, I think if you make Audyssey "work too hard" these things may happen. A little bit of room treatment to help Audyssey out is a good thing, AIUI.

Again, I may just be talking through my hat here.
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post #3668 of 3689 Old 10-18-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
On the REW thread this goes back and forth. For movies, because of multi-channel-ness, Audyssey does a great job. But for music sometimes Audyssey muddies up the bass and/or makes the imaging less precise because of what it does.

Mind, this is hearsay from me because I am not currently using any room correction or EQ.

From what I've gathered, I think if you make Audyssey "work too hard" these things may happen. A little bit of room treatment to help Audyssey out is a good thing, AIUI.

Again, I may just be talking through my hat here.
You can find advocates for that but, imho, it is a hangover from the traditional audiophile obsession with simplicity in the signal stream (now outdated in the digital age) and with the acceptance of room influences as part of how stereo "should" sound. I don't buy it.

If there are modal and other acoustic corruptions due to the room (and not fixed by room design/treatment), they affect any sound, including live conversation. Fixing them removes their coloring of the sound regardless of whether it is coming from one, two, 5.1 or more sources.

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post #3669 of 3689 Old 10-18-2014, 10:10 PM
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Improved performance

Its been a Parasound kind of yr for me I just picked up a A51 about 6 weeks ago and have had time to evaluate the amp and have reluctantly concluded that the upgrade is not a big leap in sound improvement as I was hoping. Or another way to look at it is the amp that I replaced were actually pretty good. In a search for the best sound I can afford I decided to break up my system opting to add a P7 preamp for listening to two channel audio and adding a another set of speakers for the same purpose. I should receive the new stuff in about two weeks. Went with 804's and will use them in theater bypass mode. I believe this change should be a big differance. After reading several reviews on the P7 with mixed feelings I decided to move forward. One thing that all reviews seem to have in common was this is a good addition for some one wanting to have the best of both worlds 2ch stereo and Home Theater.
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post #3670 of 3689 Old 10-19-2014, 03:36 AM
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biggin,

Which amplifier were you using previous to the parasound?

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post #3671 of 3689 Old 10-19-2014, 07:25 PM
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post #3672 of 3689 Old 10-19-2014, 08:48 PM
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The halos our on my short list for my new 2 channel setup, would I be better off with an JC2/A21 OR P5/JC1'S setup ?

Room is 16x24
speakers not yet purchased but I am between vienna acoustics beethoven baby grands and martin logan montis
equal split between vinyl,cd and high res downloads.

The fact that the p5 has a phono stage is of no importance to me as I will probably use a separate one anyway.

Somewhat new to this so just not sure what has more importance in this type of setup
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post #3673 of 3689 Old 10-19-2014, 08:51 PM
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I meant p7 not P5
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post #3674 of 3689 Old 10-20-2014, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
You can find advocates for that but, imho, it is a hangover from the traditional audiophile obsession with simplicity in the signal stream (now outdated in the digital age) and with the acceptance of room influences as part of how stereo "should" sound. I don't buy it.

If there are modal and other acoustic corruptions due to the room (and not fixed by room design/treatment), they affect any sound, including live conversation. Fixing them removes their coloring of the sound regardless of whether it is coming from one, two, 5.1 or more sources.
First off, I took an 18 year hiatus from following this hobby (but still enjoying) so while I might qualify as old, not sure I can meet the old audiophile label. I dumped my vinyl collection early (now a regret) and when I rejoined what was happening I bought a Onkyo TX-NR1008 with Audyssey XT and had no issues. However, after I bought my 205/2s and then added the Integra DHC 80.3 with XT32 I thought this will be great. While it does do a good job on the lows I could never get the mid/upper highs right. Spent much time on the Audyssey thread trying all sorts of stuff. If Audyssey allowed you to set the upper frequency limit when EQ'ing I think it would be great. To me it just does something I don't like for music. Not sure why it is good for movies but not "always for music ". My expectation bias was that XT32 would be great, just not what I experienced in all cases.
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post #3675 of 3689 Old 10-20-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by seanh1978 View Post
I meant p7 not P5
Why the P7 for a 2-ch setup? The JC2/A21 should be the better choice for best AQ since the JC2 is their flagship preamp (I'm probably going that route myself). The JC2/JC1 combo is probably the best, but IMO it's difficult to justify the increase in price of two JC1's over the A21. Has anyone compared them directly?
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post #3676 of 3689 Old 10-20-2014, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanh1978 View Post
The halos our on my short list for my new 2 channel setup, would I be better off with an JC2/A21 OR P5/JC1'S setup ?

Room is 16x24
speakers not yet purchased but I am between vienna acoustics beethoven baby grands and martin logan montis
equal split between vinyl,cd and high res downloads.

The fact that the p5 has a phono stage is of no importance to me as I will probably use a separate one anyway.

Somewhat new to this so just not sure what has more importance in this type of setup
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post
Why the P7 for a 2-ch setup? The JC2/A21 should be the better choice for best AQ since the JC2 is their flagship preamp (I'm probably going that route myself). The JC2/JC1 combo is probably the best, but IMO it's difficult to justify the increase in price of two JC1's over the A21. Has anyone compared them directly?
I would concur, if two channel is the desire the JC2 (BP) is a great choice. I just went with the Ayre K-5xeMP which has HT bypass. I picked that over the JC2 BP because I got a great deal on a slightly used one and thought the slightly warmer presentation might match better with my Kef 205/2s and Bryston 4Bsst2 amp. If I had the A21 I would be more inclined to go with the JC2.
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post #3677 of 3689 Old 10-20-2014, 11:52 AM
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I guess more of what I'm getting at am I better off with the better amps and cheaper pre amp or keeping them equal in the budget
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post #3678 of 3689 Old 10-20-2014, 02:51 PM
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I just picked up a used HCA-1205A from craigslist. This thing was heavier than I expected. I was very excited to get it home and hook it up. The first thing I noticed when I hooked it up is that channel 5 doesn't work at all. I was only able to power it on when I purchased it as the guy no longer had anything to hook it up to. I contacted him and he said all channels worked when he last had it hooked up which was a year ago. Oh well, that's the chance you take on craigs. I used channel 4 and gave it a listen. My first impression was that it didn't seem much different than my onkyo tx-nr905(140 wpc 2 channels driven). My plan was to biamp when I purchased this so then I gave that a shot. Holy moly that really woke up my speakers (Polk RTI150's). These speakers are power hungry and liked what they were getting. It was loud and clean. I only got to listen loud for a few minutes since the wife was home. Any ideas on why channel 5 isn't working or what I can look for? I would like to use that channel for my center. It doesn't crack, hum or hiss. Just nothing comes out.
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post #3679 of 3689 Old 10-20-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post
First off, I took an 18 year hiatus from following this hobby (but still enjoying) so while I might qualify as old, not sure I can meet the old audiophile label. I dumped my vinyl collection early (now a regret) and when I rejoined what was happening I bought a Onkyo TX-NR1008 with Audyssey XT and had no issues. However, after I bought my 205/2s and then added the Integra DHC 80.3 with XT32 I thought this will be great. While it does do a good job on the lows I could never get the mid/upper highs right. Spent much time on the Audyssey thread trying all sorts of stuff. If Audyssey allowed you to set the upper frequency limit when EQ'ing I think it would be great. To me it just does something I don't like for music. Not sure why it is good for movies but not "always for music ". My expectation bias was that XT32 would be great, just not what I experienced in all cases.
OK. Mebbe it was unsuccessful for you but if you had no issues with XT but did with XT32, I wonder if that had to do with setup/calibration. Besides, not all bias is conscious. ;-)

In any case, my testament was in general and there will be many exceptions for different reasons.

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post #3680 of 3689 Old 10-21-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by seanh1978 View Post
I guess more of what I'm getting at am I better off with the better amps and cheaper pre amp or keeping them equal in the budget
IMO, you should get the best pre amp you can. It has much more influence over the sound than the amp.
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post #3681 of 3689 Old Yesterday, 12:03 AM
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I agree with artur9 I would go with the best equipment that meets your budget requirement. I just purchased the A51 and have been using it for both movies and music however I recently purchased a P5 with BP and will update my system. I was thinking of adding a separate power amp JC 1 but just cant afford it right now. At the same time I purchased the P5 I ordered a new set of speakers. The reviews on the P5 were good. Good luck and may the force be with you. I had posted earlier that the change in amps did not sound good however I did not realize that the amp needed some break in time so today it sounded great using just regular CD's 44.1/16.

I own HD audio and like to stream music the P5 comes with digital inputs, and subwoofer inputs. (2.1)



Burr-Brown PCM1798 DAC with USB, Optical and Coax inputs
Coax and optical accept all sampling rates up to 192 kHz, 24-bit
USB accepts up to 96 kHz, 24-bit
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Analog Bass management with high and low pass crossovers
Home theater bypass input for surround sound integration
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Phono input for MM & MC cartridges with 100 Ohm or 47k Ohm load
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Available in silver or black finish
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post #3682 of 3689 Old Yesterday, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggin View Post
Its been a Parasound kind of yr for me I just picked up a A51 about 6 weeks ago and have had time to evaluate the amp and have reluctantly concluded that the upgrade is not a big leap in sound improvement as I was hoping. Or another way to look at it is the amp that I replaced were actually pretty good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggin View Post
...snip... I had posted earlier that the change in amps did not sound good however I did not realize that the amp needed some break in time so today it sounded great using just regular CD's 44.1/16.
So in a matter of 3 days, you've changed your opinion about the A51 from not sounding good (or was it not a big leap in sound improvement) to sounding great. I'm confused

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post #3683 of 3689 Old Yesterday, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post
Why the P7 for a 2-ch setup? The JC2/A21 should be the better choice for best AQ since the JC2 is their flagship preamp (I'm probably going that route myself). The JC2/JC1 combo is probably the best, but IMO it's difficult to justify the increase in price of two JC1's over the A21. Has anyone compared them directly?
The P7 is one fine pre-amp. And if the user has LPs, and has a JC2, then the need to add a phono stage. The P7 already has a fine phono stage.
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post #3684 of 3689 Old Yesterday, 07:17 PM
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Cool

Sorry for the confusion, the post were three days apart but I have been running the amp for about two weeks. There is a sizable cost difference in the amps that is why I was expecting a bigger difference. Actually "did not sound good" was a bad choice of words I was expecting a bigger difference in sound quality all things being equal same speakers, same preamp......

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post #3685 of 3689 Old Today, 01:11 AM
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The P5 doesn't work in bypass mode when the device is turned off? Can somebody confirm this. I thought it says it will be in bypass mode automatically when it is turned off.

If it matters, I am using balanced connections from P5 to A21 amp.
Thanks,
TT

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post #3686 of 3689 Old Today, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggin View Post
Sorry for the confusion, the post were three days apart but I have been running the amp for about two weeks. There is a sizable cost difference in the amps that is why I was expecting a bigger difference. Actually "did not sound good" was a bad choice of words I was expecting a bigger difference in sound quality all things being equal same speakers, same preamp......
How much a given power amp improves, or not, mainly depends on one's speakers. If they have a low dB rating, say 85, then adding a more powerful amp will improve the overall sound, as there will be plenty of power to drive them.
On the other hand, if the speakers are very efficient changing power amps may show no improvement. A quality pre-amp will provide an improvement over a cheap pre in an AVR.
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post #3687 of 3689 Old Today, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post
How much a given power amp improves, or not, mainly depends on one's speakers. If they have a low dB rating, say 85, then adding a more powerful amp will improve the overall sound, as there will be plenty of power to drive them.
On the other hand, if the speakers are very efficient changing power amps may show no improvement. A quality pre-amp will provide an improvement over a cheap pre in an AVR.
Its pretty much a given that there is more difference between a cheap preamp and quality preamp than there are in amplifiers that are in the same class and relative range.

I think what may have added to the lack of a major change was that biggins was already running class AB amps. That's why I was asking which amps did he have previous. Then you have the question if the added sound quality of class A or AB is accuracy of desirable distortion....a warm sound. Not so sure that I care as much about accuracy as long as they sound good to my ear.

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post #3688 of 3689 Old Today, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tractng View Post
The P5 doesn't work in bypass mode when the device is turned off? Can somebody confirm this. I thought it says it will be in bypass mode automatically when it is turned off.

If it matters, I am using balanced connections from P5 to A21 amp.
Thanks,
TT
According to the P5 manual, the by-pass works with the the P5 turned off. It says when the P5 is off, the by-pass input is automatically selected.
I would think it should make no difference as to using the RCA or balanced inputs. But if you are not getting the signal to pass when off, try using a pair of RCA cables to see if the signal passes through them.

With my P7, it has to be on at all times, unfortunately.

Hopefully a P5 owner will give his/her experience.
But it would not be the first time I read a manual that made a statement that was a complete opposite of reality.

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post #3689 of 3689 Old Today, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
I think what may have added to the lack of a major change was that biggins was already running class AB amps.
Not only was he running the same class of amp he was also running some highly regarded amps at the time they were made. Shame what happened to Mondial.

So, same class (AB) and close-to quality of amp in terms of construction, etc. That's a tough comparison as the differences will be subtle.
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