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post #4171 of 4178 Old Yesterday, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
I eliminted the noise (for now at least) by plugging my JC-2 BP directly into my ac outlet and running the rest of my gear through the high current outlets on my panamax m4300 (trialing this to see if it helps). I have no hooked up all my components but I had my UD7007, A21, JC-2 and television iwth hdmi connected to ud7007 and I could barely and i mean ear next to it, hear any noise from teh A21. so i am happy that it is possible to at minimum have this setup without noise. the main issue I had was not just a little hiss or hum when everything was plugged in but specifically when i turned on the bypass for hte jc-2 and had RCA cables connecting pre outs from my avr to the jc-2 - that is when my left channel went nuts with noise and right channel increased in noise level just not nearly as bad as the left.

So after stripping all my wiring out (subs, speaker cable for surrounds and center, etc.) I am back to the simple setup for music that is working quite well. It is possible that moving my marantz ud87007 from the fitlered side of the panamax to unfiltered high current side made a difference but i doubt it. most likely it was the jc-2 not liking the panamax filtering or even the high current outlet

I am currently on the search for a second pair of speakers (and an integrated or seperates) to setup my second listening room as i have way too much going on in this one.

anyone have suggestions for a speaker that maybe has a slightly smalller presence than my CM10s but matches up well sonically? I want to try something outside of B&W but i dont want to dip below the quality of sound i have gotten with them. I was looking at KEF ls50s or maybe even something from their reference line and then either an ayre acoustics integrated or preamp power amp combination OR a halo integrated

thoughts?
It sounds like you have resistance on the ground and/or neutral- the resistance between devices is a classic ground loop- it makes up the difference wherever it can and that's on the audio cables.
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post #4172 of 4178 Old Yesterday, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
I eliminted the noise (for now at least) by plugging my JC-2 BP directly into my ac outlet and running the rest of my gear through the high current outlets on my panamax m4300 (trialing this to see if it helps). I have no hooked up all my components but I had my UD7007, A21, JC-2 and television iwth hdmi connected to ud7007 and I could barely and i mean ear next to it, hear any noise from teh A21. so i am happy that it is possible to at minimum have this setup without noise. the main issue I had was not just a little hiss or hum when everything was plugged in but specifically when i turned on the bypass for hte jc-2 and had RCA cables connecting pre outs from my avr to the jc-2 - that is when my left channel went nuts with noise and right channel increased in noise level just not nearly as bad as the left.

So after stripping all my wiring out (subs, speaker cable for surrounds and center, etc.) I am back to the simple setup for music that is working quite well. It is possible that moving my marantz ud87007 from the fitlered side of the panamax to unfiltered high current side made a difference but i doubt it. most likely it was the jc-2 not liking the panamax filtering or even the high current outlet

I am currently on the search for a second pair of speakers (and an integrated or seperates) to setup my second listening room as i have way too much going on in this one.

anyone have suggestions for a speaker that maybe has a slightly smaller presence than my CM10s but matches up well sonically? I want to try something outside of B&W but i dont want to dip below the quality of sound i have gotten with them. I was looking at KEF ls50s or maybe even something from their reference line and then either an ayre acoustics integrated or preamp power amp combination OR a halo integrated

thoughts?
FWIW, most amplifier manufacturers, including Parasound, don't think amplifiers need to go through a power "conditioner" unless the conditioner can deliver a ton of current. Conditioners with a transformer should be avoided because transformers limit current and these do draw a good amount. Equipment with microprocessors don't like peaks and dips and they benefit more from these products. Also, if the electrical supply voltage drops and there's a difference between two pieces, e.g., a preamp and power amp, this IS how a ground loop occurs. If you see anyone refer to a 'potential difference' or 'difference in potential', it means the supply voltage to one is not equal to that of the other for some reason and if you were to unplug the interconnects, you would be able to measure voltage between the two pieces. When they receive the same voltage on the hot but the neutral for one has resistance, it's a bad thing. When the ground has resistance, it can cause the same problem. Using a three-two prong adapter on the power amp can show that a ground loop exists because there's no longer a ground reference between the two. However, those adapters aren't designed to lift the ground, the green wire or tab is meant to be attached to the screw in the center of the wall plate and lifting the ground when the equipment has a grounded cord and chassis is an electrical code violation.

In reality, you should be able to use all of this equipment in the same room, but if you have a ground loop, the best way to eliminate it is by using a GOOD 1:1 isolation transformer, such as the IsoMax models, made by Jensen Transformers. They have these with RCA or XLR jacks and are made for pro/recording installations. Jensen also has many great white papers on their site regarding grounding, ground loops, etc. They're extremely helpful and Bill Whitlock is a great resource.
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post #4173 of 4178 Old Yesterday, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post
What? The Kef LS50"s have won more "Speaker and/or product of the year" awards than any product I can remember. Yes, They are that good.

Full disclosure, I'm a Parasound Halo and Kef Reference dealer....
I'm referring to owners buying both and comparing them in their systems, and returning the LS50. I doubt you'll see any Internet Direct sold speakers winning "speaker of the year" awards any time soon, but they are amazingly good. One critique of the LS50 that I've read is for some they can get bright. Also, the looks are very unique but orange and no grills does not add up to a winner for some.

Hey don't get me wrong, they are very good speakers, and Kef has a winner here. But they certainly are not the only option out there, and the Sierra 2 is one that some are picking over the LS50.
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post #4174 of 4178 Old Yesterday, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by highfigh View Post
In order to remove (cancel) common mode noise, each pair needs to be twisted, not a group of four conductors. If you would look at the information, the insertion loss is pretty high and that kills the amp's damping factor (which is very high, compared with many others). The best way to eliminate the noise is to remove it BEFORE the amp. ALWAYS before the amp. Anything that is done after the amp messes with the sound.
so what would i do before the amp to accomplish this? not that i am attemtping anything after the amp, but I am curious if you have suggestions given your comment.

the only thing after my amplifier would be two stranded OFC 12 AWG speaker cables, both 15 feet in length, bought off amazon for $14.95. I have not done any exhaustive testing vs the audioquest cables I was given (rocket 33 and type 4) because they aren't long enough to run from my components to my left speaker. So far I have gotten the best sound with these speaker cables vs even audioquest in previous setups where things were a bit closer together.

my issue is the RCA interconnects I have running from my marantz receiver sr7009 (under the television) to the component stand (off to the right of my front right speaker. I have balanced cables connecting my other sources to the jc-2 and once I finish setting this all up successfully I will most likely use digital cables to connect any source that doesnt convert digital to analog better than my benchmark dac2 DX into the benchmark dac and then from there to the jc-2. I may swap out my dac2 dx for a hgc model in order to have analog ins but I doubt having the dac between my jc2 and power amplifier is going to be any cleaner than my existing chain.

Because my marantz sr7009 needs a lot of cables coming from the back to run the 5.2 setup I have I was considering bagging the whole bypass mode idea and just simply swapping out speaker cables and/or sending my marantz preouts to the power amp directly for movies/surround sound or anything that I would prefer hearing with subwoofers and then swap back in either speaker cable or inputs to the amp from my jc-2when i want analog sound. IMHO it really is not significantly more convenient to use a remote to switch back and forth (with the risk of more noise/distortion/variables to deal with) then to walk over and swap a cable out. The biggest drawback would be that in theory I should be cutting power to everything when making that switch so that could be annoying.

Either way i dont have any way of getting something that rejects noise any better than rca cables because the sr7009 doesnt have any balanced connections.

One thing I may try is adding in my subwoofers via rca cable stereo sub style just to see what it sounds like. probably between the jc-2 and a21 but i think (correct me if anyone knows better) that the loop outs on the a21 could do this a bit easier but obviously i would be doubling the bass of my mains with he subs instead of offloading it.

I think the sr7009 does a fine job in surround movies and for the most part surround sound music, so i dont think i would really miss the a21 or jc-2 in these type of setups a great deal. two channel sounds amazing with these components with the sr7009 out of the loop and unless i can figure out a clean way to connect things togehter without noise I may just leave it that way. less power drain and components being turned on all the time during playback.

My Current 5.2 Setup - for now....
B&W CM10s (FLR), CMC2, CM5 x2 (SLR)
Dual SVS SB2000s

Rack and Display:
Marantz SR7009, Marantz UD7007, T-PC50st60
[/COLOR]
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post #4175 of 4178 Old Today, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
so what would i do before the amp to accomplish this? not that i am attemtping anything after the amp, but I am curious if you have suggestions given your comment.

the only thing after my amplifier would be two stranded OFC 12 AWG speaker cables, both 15 feet in length, bought off amazon for $14.95. I have not done any exhaustive testing vs the audioquest cables I was given (rocket 33 and type 4) because they aren't long enough to run from my components to my left speaker. So far I have gotten the best sound with these speaker cables vs even audioquest in previous setups where things were a bit closer together.

my issue is the RCA interconnects I have running from my marantz receiver sr7009 (under the television) to the component stand (off to the right of my front right speaker. I have balanced cables connecting my other sources to the jc-2 and once I finish setting this all up successfully I will most likely use digital cables to connect any source that doesnt convert digital to analog better than my benchmark dac2 DX into the benchmark dac and then from there to the jc-2. I may swap out my dac2 dx for a hgc model in order to have analog ins but I doubt having the dac between my jc2 and power amplifier is going to be any cleaner than my existing chain.

Because my marantz sr7009 needs a lot of cables coming from the back to run the 5.2 setup I have I was considering bagging the whole bypass mode idea and just simply swapping out speaker cables and/or sending my marantz preouts to the power amp directly for movies/surround sound or anything that I would prefer hearing with subwoofers and then swap back in either speaker cable or inputs to the amp from my jc-2when i want analog sound. IMHO it really is not significantly more convenient to use a remote to switch back and forth (with the risk of more noise/distortion/variables to deal with) then to walk over and swap a cable out. The biggest drawback would be that in theory I should be cutting power to everything when making that switch so that could be annoying.

Either way i dont have any way of getting something that rejects noise any better than rca cables because the sr7009 doesnt have any balanced connections.

One thing I may try is adding in my subwoofers via rca cable stereo sub style just to see what it sounds like. probably between the jc-2 and a21 but i think (correct me if anyone knows better) that the loop outs on the a21 could do this a bit easier but obviously i would be doubling the bass of my mains with he subs instead of offloading it.

I think the sr7009 does a fine job in surround movies and for the most part surround sound music, so i dont think i would really miss the a21 or jc-2 in these type of setups a great deal. two channel sounds amazing with these components with the sr7009 out of the loop and unless i can figure out a clean way to connect things togehter without noise I may just leave it that way. less power drain and components being turned on all the time during playback.
In looking at the back of the Marantz, I see that it has a Signal Ground next to the IR port. Connect a wire from this to the ground on the JC-2. This will bond the chassis to the JC-2 and could remove the noise.

You can use the balanced and unbalanced preamp outputs at the same time, so that would be where the subs get their signal.

If you could list each piece of equipment in the system including all of the video pieces, whether you have cable, satellite, U-Verse, antenna, the signal path for everything and what's plugged in & where, it would help.

This seems like a PITA, but there's often a simple cause for most noise problems.

If you have cable, unplug the coax from the cable box while the system is on- it won't hurt anything. If the noise stops, put an isolator on the cable feed- cable installers frequently install the cabling without the required ground being connected according to the National Electric Code. There's a whole section on low voltage requirements and AV & communications is Low Voltage.

I see that the TV is over the AVR- does this noise occur when the TV is off? If not, you'll need to move the AVR or re-route the cabling, to prevent the noise from the TV entering the signal path.

ANY time analog signal cabling is bundled with other types of cables, the chance of noise increases and it can even come in from HDMI. If the analog cables are bundled with or running parallel to power cords or if the electrical wiring in the wall is parallel to these cables, move the cables away from these. If they're bundled, it should be easy- if you need to find out if the noise is from being close to the electrical wiring, it's just a matter of increasing the distance from your cables to the wall. Easy for me to say, right? Distance is your friend when it comes to noise that's radiated into a component or cable.

I REALLY, REALLY like optical connections- it's not wire, so it can't possibly cause a ground loop. If you can change from digital coax to optical for anything, try this.

As far as signal path and cable routing, I like to use the AVR for all of the video and audio switching and then, send one cable to the TV for the video. The TV's input is set to the highest resolution it can handle, the output from the AVR is set to match and if it can up-convert the video, I do that. I don't like to have redundant cabling unless it's needed to provide analog audio for Zone 2, which may not be necessary for yours if it's new enough and it strips the analog audio after it's converted internally or if you're not using Zone 2. One HDMI (or component video/stereo L&R) for each source going to the AVR, AVR's HDMI to the TV, AVR's optical out to the DAC with any other sources connected to the DAC, as well and one optical from the DAC to the Preamp.

Make a list of your cable assignments and, while it's not a lot of fun, start over by unplugging everything, leaving the speakers connected (if you want to do this with closed headphones, go ahead). Connect the AVR to the preamp and the preamp to the power amp. Power it up and listen for noise- if no noise, connect the TV to the AVR. Noise? If yes, and the AVR is still under the TV, move the AVR and listen for any changes. If no, connect the next source to the AVR and repeat the procedure.

I don't remember the last time a noise problem had anything to do with the speaker wiring when the system used the normal 4/8 Ohm output (wasn't 70V equipment) and I started going this in 1978. I have even seen speaker wires bundled with power cords and that didn't even matter. There's no guarantee that bundling cables with power cords will be a noise problem, or not.

Re: the RCA cables from the Marantz to the JC-2, if you find that the noise occurs only when this cable is connected (and you can verify this by unplugging one channel, then listening for changes), this is where the IsoMax would be connected. While a Radio Shack isolator could eliminate the problem, it isn't going to be neutral-sounding.
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post #4176 of 4178 Old Today, 09:05 AM
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Hey guys - currently have a 2205A hooked up to Paradigm studio series speakers with a Marantz AV8801. I have an opportunity to get an ATI 3007 at a great deal, but just wondering if it is worth it. The 2205 is a phenomenal amp, but it is approaching older age. My question is do I continue to invest in the HCA series and get a 1206 to compliment my system, or due to age ( even though things are running great now ), take the jump and invest in a newer amp ( weather it be ATI or Halo series ). I feel this would be a lateral move in audio quality due to the quality of the HCA2205 series and the ATI's ( both are no slumps ) with minimal sonic differences. BUT - if the 2205 takes a plunge, do you guys feel it is worth keeping if repair may be warranted in the future? Have there really been that many advances in amplifier technology in the last 10-15 years, or is it a toss up? This may be a preference issue, and I am all about hearing everyone's opinions. Do I invest now for future proofing/ peace of mind, or do I keep what I have and get a 1206, because even if a repair is warranted, it is worth it due to the quality of the amps.
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post #4177 of 4178 Old Today, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I'm referring to owners buying both and comparing them in their systems, and returning the LS50. I doubt you'll see any Internet Direct sold speakers winning "speaker of the year" awards any time soon, but they are amazingly good. One critique of the LS50 that I've read is for some they can get bright. Also, the looks are very unique but orange and no grills does not add up to a winner for some.

Hey don't get me wrong, they are very good speakers, and Kef has a winner here. But they certainly are not the only option out there, and the Sierra 2 is one that some are picking over the LS50.
good point on the no "no grills" i didn't know you couldn't cove them up. I prefer black over white finish but may prefer the blue over orange. Either way, I don't think I would like such a strong color but who knows.

not familiar with the Ascend Sierra-2's but when I was researching the ls50s I did come across a number of comparisons in various forums that back up your statement. Seems like the general consensus is a bit divided in terms of which speaker is "better" and definitely comes down to preference, but most seem to agree that the value for the money win goes to the Sierra-2s.

My Current 5.2 Setup - for now....
B&W CM10s (FLR), CMC2, CM5 x2 (SLR)
Dual SVS SB2000s

Rack and Display:
Marantz SR7009, Marantz UD7007, T-PC50st60
[/COLOR]
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post #4178 of 4178 Old Today, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by highfigh View Post
In looking at the back of the Marantz, I see that it has a Signal Ground next to the IR port. Connect a wire from this to the ground on the JC-2. This will bond the chassis to the JC-2 and could remove the noise.

You can use the balanced and unbalanced preamp outputs at the same time, so that would be where the subs get their signal.

If you could list each piece of equipment in the system including all of the video pieces, whether you have cable, satellite, U-Verse, antenna, the signal path for everything and what's plugged in & where, it would help.

This seems like a PITA, but there's often a simple cause for most noise problems.

If you have cable, unplug the coax from the cable box while the system is on- it won't hurt anything. If the noise stops, put an isolator on the cable feed- cable installers frequently install the cabling without the required ground being connected according to the National Electric Code. There's a whole section on low voltage requirements and AV & communications is Low Voltage.

I see that the TV is over the AVR- does this noise occur when the TV is off? If not, you'll need to move the AVR or re-route the cabling, to prevent the noise from the TV entering the signal path.

ANY time analog signal cabling is bundled with other types of cables, the chance of noise increases and it can even come in from HDMI. If the analog cables are bundled with or running parallel to power cords or if the electrical wiring in the wall is parallel to these cables, move the cables away from these. If they're bundled, it should be easy- if you need to find out if the noise is from being close to the electrical wiring, it's just a matter of increasing the distance from your cables to the wall. Easy for me to say, right? Distance is your friend when it comes to noise that's radiated into a component or cable.

I REALLY, REALLY like optical connections- it's not wire, so it can't possibly cause a ground loop. If you can change from digital coax to optical for anything, try this.

As far as signal path and cable routing, I like to use the AVR for all of the video and audio switching and then, send one cable to the TV for the video. The TV's input is set to the highest resolution it can handle, the output from the AVR is set to match and if it can up-convert the video, I do that. I don't like to have redundant cabling unless it's needed to provide analog audio for Zone 2, which may not be necessary for yours if it's new enough and it strips the analog audio after it's converted internally or if you're not using Zone 2. One HDMI (or component video/stereo L&R) for each source going to the AVR, AVR's HDMI to the TV, AVR's optical out to the DAC with any other sources connected to the DAC, as well and one optical from the DAC to the Preamp.

Make a list of your cable assignments and, while it's not a lot of fun, start over by unplugging everything, leaving the speakers connected (if you want to do this with closed headphones, go ahead). Connect the AVR to the preamp and the preamp to the power amp. Power it up and listen for noise- if no noise, connect the TV to the AVR. Noise? If yes, and the AVR is still under the TV, move the AVR and listen for any changes. If no, connect the next source to the AVR and repeat the procedure.

I don't remember the last time a noise problem had anything to do with the speaker wiring when the system used the normal 4/8 Ohm output (wasn't 70V equipment) and I started going this in 1978. I have even seen speaker wires bundled with power cords and that didn't even matter. There's no guarantee that bundling cables with power cords will be a noise problem, or not.

Re: the RCA cables from the Marantz to the JC-2, if you find that the noise occurs only when this cable is connected (and you can verify this by unplugging one channel, then listening for changes), this is where the IsoMax would be connected. While a Radio Shack isolator could eliminate the problem, it isn't going to be neutral-sounding.
thanks for the replies, this is all helpful and I will do a bit of experimenting with your suggestions this weekend. Right now I have been able to get everything plugged in with no noise at all so far and that includes my panasonic plasma playing blue ray discs via hdmi while sending sound via balanced cables to the avr. the only thing i have not tried yet again is getting the reciever back in teh chain. might try rca/xlr adapters to see if that helps too.

thanks again!

My Current 5.2 Setup - for now....
B&W CM10s (FLR), CMC2, CM5 x2 (SLR)
Dual SVS SB2000s

Rack and Display:
Marantz SR7009, Marantz UD7007, T-PC50st60
[/COLOR]
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