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Old 06-23-2015, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisMc73 View Post
So what are examples of real surround effect natively recorded in 5.1, just music surround discs? Not movies?
Here's an old list with some suggestions: http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...cordings-round

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Old 06-23-2015, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Here's an old list with some suggestions: http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...cordings-round
Ok so you are basically just talking about just music. Movies are all recorded and distributed with these "effects" you don't like such as the DTS, ATMOS, Dolby Pro Logic, etc etc?
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:09 AM
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So what are examples of real surround effect natively recorded in 5.1, just music surround discs? Not movies?
The best example I can come up with is BD-Audio version of Beck's "See change". For me it is ilike a reference disk.

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Old 06-23-2015, 10:33 AM
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So what are examples of real surround effect natively recorded in 5.1, just music surround discs? Not movies?
Some AVRs let you apply sound processing to expand a 2-channel soundtrack to a full 5.1 experience. This is a bit fake since the information doesn't exist in the 2channel soundtrack. Dolby PLIIx does this.

Then some music recordings and most DVD & BluRays use 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks. That is how the recordings were created so there's no fake here. Other than the fact that a UFO zooming from left to right is obviously fake.

When a disc has a DTS or Dolby soundtrack in 5.1 it's not fake like the Dolby PLIIx fake, it's fake like the UFO fake.

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Old 06-23-2015, 01:10 PM
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Some AVRs let you apply sound processing to expand a 2-channel soundtrack to a full 5.1 experience. This is a bit fake since the information doesn't exist in the 2channel soundtrack. Dolby PLIIx does this.

Then some music recordings and most DVD & BluRays use 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks. That is how the recordings were created so there's no fake here. Other than the fact that a UFO zooming from left to right is obviously fake.

When a disc has a DTS or Dolby soundtrack in 5.1 it's not fake like the Dolby PLIIx fake, it's fake like the UFO fake.

hth
Right but thats how the sound engineer wanted you to listen to the movie at home on a system that handles that kind of processing right? They created the soundtrack audio to that movie in 5.1/7.1 to make that UFO move left to right, or the door slam behind you etc, thats how they wanted it to sound on the BluRay DVD correct? So in otherwords to me thats not fake, thats how it was intended. I don't know if the real original theater movie has the same sound effects with the speakers as the home BluRays, and so those may be different and the real movie theater sound is what you call real and the home version is fake? I get what you mean by Dolby PLIIx simulating surround sound, but again, to me, the DTS in 5.1/7.1 and others that were created for 5.1/7.1 are not "fake" to me they are playing as intended. So that whole area is a little gray to me from your explanation.

I guess a better question for me to ask would be, if I had a system with no AVR, no way to process the 5.1/7.1 DTS/Dolby etc, but I played a BluRay on my say 5.1 system, am I going to get those movements from left to right or the doors from the back speakers that slam behind me etc, or is it just going to be all sound from all 5.1 speakers?

I think I want something in my system that will process these 5.1/7.1/9.1 surround sound effects and I don't think to me those are fake, they are meant to be heard in that surround mode, so why is it considered fake?
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Old 06-23-2015, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisMc73 View Post
Ok so you are basically just talking about just music.
In general, yes because I am much more interested in music than in movies.

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Movies are all recorded and distributed with these "effects" you don't like such as the DTS, ATMOS, Dolby Pro Logic, etc etc?
Those are a mixed bag but, for the most part, I do not regard them as "effects" if the source material is so encoded.

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Old 06-23-2015, 04:23 PM
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Right but thats how the sound engineer wanted you to listen to the movie at home on a system that handles that kind of processing right? They created the soundtrack audio to that movie in 5.1/7.1 to make that UFO move left to right, or the door slam behind you etc, thats how they wanted it to sound on the BluRay DVD correct? So in otherwords to me thats not fake, thats how it was intended. I don't know if the real original theater movie has the same sound effects with the speakers as the home BluRays, and so those may be different and the real movie theater sound is what you call real and the home version is fake? I get what you mean by Dolby PLIIx simulating surround sound, but again, to me, the DTS in 5.1/7.1 and others that were created for 5.1/7.1 are not "fake" to me they are playing as intended. So that whole area is a little gray to me from your explanation.

I guess a better question for me to ask would be, if I had a system with no AVR, no way to process the 5.1/7.1 DTS/Dolby etc, but I played a BluRay on my say 5.1 system, am I going to get those movements from left to right or the doors from the back speakers that slam behind me etc, or is it just going to be all sound from all 5.1 speakers?

I think I want something in my system that will process these 5.1/7.1/9.1 surround sound effects and I don't think to me those are fake, they are meant to be heard in that surround mode, so why is it considered fake?
I am not sure what you are arguing about. Source material in 5.1/6.1/etc. played in the indicated format is something quite different from taking any format source material and reprocessing it to more channels. Using the terms "effects" and "fake," with or without parentheses, gets in the way.

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Old 06-23-2015, 07:40 PM
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I wasn't arguing anything, I'm trying to understand things here, and was just using the words @artur9 was using and trying to understand what he meant, no arguing anything by me. I have probably way over thought the subjects though, so I'll just shut up I guess.

I was just trying to understand that if someone who doesn't use an AVR or have something that processes the BluRay Movies DTS/PLII/NEO codings, would you still get the sound movement if its just straight 5.1/7.1 channels amped, thats all I am trying to understand.

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Old 06-23-2015, 07:51 PM
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...
I guess a better question for me to ask would be, if I had a system with no AVR, no way to process the 5.1/7.1 DTS/Dolby etc, but I played a BluRay on my say 5.1 system, am I going to get those movements from left to right or the doors from the back speakers that slam behind me etc, or is it just going to be all sound from all 5.1 speakers?

I think I want something in my system that will process these 5.1/7.1/9.1 surround sound effects and I don't think to me those are fake, they are meant to be heard in that surround mode, so why is it considered fake?
If you have no way to process DTS/Dolby etc as encoded on the disc by the sound engineer then you are not going to be able to hear anything. If you're lucky. If you're unlucky you'll hear horrible screeching noise. There is the odd disc that doesn't use DTS or Dolby for surround sound but they are not too common. I've only come across one or two.

The sound effects as created by the movie creators and encoded by the sound engineers is about as far from fake as one can get.
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:41 AM
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If you have no way to process DTS/Dolby etc as encoded on the disc by the sound engineer then you are not going to be able to hear anything. If you're lucky. If you're unlucky you'll hear horrible screeching noise. There is the odd disc that doesn't use DTS or Dolby for surround sound but they are not too common. I've only come across one or two.

The sound effects as created by the movie creators and encoded by the sound engineers is about as far from fake as one can get.
Ok, so then you are a fan of the surround sound stuff that comes from movies and music, because its how sound engineers intended you to hear that media?
I guess I was getting confused and thinking you were saying it was all fake because it was something created to kind of simulate movement of sound or sound coming from different areas, sorry I think I just misunderstood you.

So then back to my questions with the Parasound equipment. If there are people out there NOT using an AVR and have just a straight Parasound gear lineup, with the Oppo of choice (103/105), what will do that sound encoding, its the Oppo then right? If most of the media they use is playable from the Oppo, it will encode those media sources and give you those effects, correct? And thus one wouldn't need an AVR? Did I understand all that right? Is there another option if one doesn't have the Oppo but has just Parasound gear?
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:01 AM
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Ok, so then you are a fan of the surround sound stuff that comes from movies and music, because its how sound engineers intended you to hear that media?
I guess I was getting confused and thinking you were saying it was all fake because it was something created to kind of simulate movement of sound or sound coming from different areas, sorry I think I just misunderstood you.

So then back to my questions with the Parasound equipment. If there are people out there NOT using an AVR and have just a straight Parasound gear lineup, with the Oppo of choice (103/105), what will do that sound encoding, its the Oppo then right? If most of the media they use is playable from the Oppo, it will encode those media sources and give you those effects, correct? And thus one wouldn't need an AVR? Did I understand all that right? Is there another option if one doesn't have the Oppo but has just Parasound gear?
A great option might be an Oppo 105[D], P7 preamp, and then a combo of Halo amps depending on whether 5 or 7 and type of speakers.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:51 AM
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A great option might be an Oppo 105[D], P7 preamp, and then a combo of Halo amps depending on whether 5 or 7 and type of speakers.
Well thats kind of what I had in my head, after looking at the Parasound website and seeing some images of the combo of the P7 and Oppo 105D.

Granted we aren't talking about a very cheap option here, lol, but I've just been trying to sort out in my mind how all this separate amping works compared with traditional AVR setups so if I'm learning it, might as well dream big and just talk about setups that are expensive right?

The only thing that I don't, still, quite understand if one had this setup would be all the HDMI devices that make up ones Home Theater. Having the Oppo to play BluRays is a big part of ones system and this setup you've defined would do that great. But how would I add my AppleTV, Xbox, Arris DVR (AT&T Uverse) into this system. You know I use my AVR for HDMI switching of these sources right now. It was explained before I think, in some previous posts, I think I might have not understood what was said before.

Would it be a simple HDMI switcher that then connects directly to the P7 or Oppo? I might need some more lamens talk here, forgive me.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:30 AM
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The only thing that I don't, still, quite understand if one had this setup would be all the HDMI devices that make up ones Home Theater. Having the Oppo to play BluRays is a big part of ones system and this setup you've defined would do that great. But how would I add my AppleTV, Xbox, Arris DVR (AT&T Uverse) into this system. You know I use my AVR for HDMI switching of these sources right now. It was explained before I think, in some previous posts, I think I might have not understood what was said before.

Would it be a simple HDMI switcher that then connects directly to the P7 or Oppo? I might need some more lamens talk here, forgive me.
Right, you'll need an HDMI switcher because the Oppo only has 2-3 HDMI inputs, IIRC, and one of them is intended for portable devices so it has a different connector.

Alternately, you could get something like a Denon AV-500N or go to accessories4less and get a refurbed Marantz or such. These are the most dollar efficient non-amplified options for a processor that I could find. Those have all the connections and features you're likely to need/want.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:42 AM
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Right, you'll need an HDMI switcher because the Oppo only has 2-3 HDMI inputs, IIRC, and one of them is intended for portable devices so it has a different connector.

Alternately, you could get something like a Denon AV-500N or go to accessories4less and get a refurbed Marantz or such. These are the most dollar efficient non-amplified options for a processor that I could find. Those have all the connections and features you're likely to need/want.
Ahhh!! Ok, this makes more sense now. So if I got something like this non-amplified PreAmp, then I wouldn't need the P7 though right? This Denon DN-500AV is a preamp with HDMI switches where the Parasound P7 is just a pure preamp, no HDMI switching?

The Denon would be essentially be the same as my AVR but taking out the amp part of it and allowing other amps such as the Parasound A31/21/23 do the amp job?

And the key to finding one of these is they are called PreAmp/Processor right? Cause they are doing two things not just one.
Like this Marantz AV7701 one?

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Old 06-24-2015, 10:42 AM
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Ahhh!! Ok, this makes more sense now. So if I got something like this non-amplified PreAmp, then I wouldn't need the P7 though right? This Denon DN-500AV is a preamp with HDMI switches where the Parasound P7 is just a pure preamp, no HDMI switching?

The Denon would be essentially be the same as my AVR but taking out the amp part of it and allowing other amps such as the Parasound A31/21/23 do the amp job?

And the key to finding one of these is they are called PreAmp/Processor right? Cause they are doing two things not just one.
Like this Marantz AV7701 one?
Yes, yes and yes.

That Marantz is a pretty well regarded unit and more consumer friendly than the Denon I mentioned. There's a dedicated thread on AVS for it so you can give that a read to see if it sounds useable for you. It's like 10,000 postings long!
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:46 AM
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Right, you'll need an HDMI switcher because the Oppo only has 2-3 HDMI inputs, IIRC, and one of them is intended for portable devices so it has a different connector.

Alternately, you could get something like a Denon AV-500N or go to accessories4less and get a refurbed Marantz or such. These are the most dollar efficient non-amplified options for a processor that I could find. Those have all the connections and features you're likely to need/want.
You can get used Emotvia UPC-200 (not made any more) or XPC-1 (more advanced). UPC-200 costs used about $500 and new XPC-1 about $2200. Adding HDMI switch to P7 is not very convenient since you it still need to decode HDMI Audio channels for sources which do not go through OPPO. UPC-200 has a simple HMDI switch and does not have balanced inputs. XPC-1 is more like AVR and has balanced input at least for stereo. I myself looking for replacement for Marantz AVR I just sold.

You can attach OPPO directly to amps of course (which I do temporarily) but the problem is setting output volume on OPPO to a lower than optimal value and input levels at Parasounds also to non-optimal values. It compromises SQ. And there might be impedance missmatch. Additionally OPPO as a HDMI switch does not have standby passtrough. But separate preamp must be high quality like e.g. JC2. I never heard P7 or Emotivas so cannot comment on those.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:55 AM
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The Marantz 7702 would be a good option instead of the P7, you could also drop back to the Oppo 103[D] since you can send digital to the prepro. 8802 would be even better choice.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:02 AM
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Yes, yes and yes.

That Marantz is a pretty well regarded unit and more consumer friendly than the Denon I mentioned. There's a dedicated thread on AVS for it so you can give that a read to see if it sounds useable for you. It's like 10,000 postings long!
Awesome I'll go find that now. Thanks all. I'm not done here though. I'll be back, don't roll your eyes.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:06 PM
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I wasn't arguing anything, I'm trying to understand things here, and was just using the words @artur9 was using and trying to understand what he meant, no arguing anything by me. I have probably way over thought the subjects though, so I'll just shut up I guess.

I was just trying to understand that if someone who doesn't use an AVR or have something that processes the BluRay Movies DTS/PLII/NEO codings, would you still get the sound movement if its just straight 5.1/7.1 channels amped, thats all I am trying to understand.
OK.

One option, if you do not have an AVR/processor is to get a player that will do the conversions and provide analog outputs. Those are getting rare in the low price ranges but the Oppos will do it.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:09 PM
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If most of the media they use is playable from the Oppo, it will encode those media sources and give you those effects, correct? And thus one wouldn't need an AVR? Did I understand all that right? Is there another option if one doesn't have the Oppo but has just Parasound gear?
1. Yes, it will decode those media sources.
2. Yes, no AVR required.
3. Yes.
4. Get another player with multichannel analog outputs.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:11 PM
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Would it be a simple HDMI switcher that then connects directly to the P7 or Oppo? I might need some more lamens talk here, forgive me.
The Oppos have HDMI inputs for other sources.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:16 PM
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I'm not done here though. I'll be back, don't roll your eyes.
Hey, Chris, you want complicated; I got complicated. HDMI-2 from my Oppo 105 goes to a Cary Cinema 12, so the Cary does the processing. Analog 7.1 from the Oppo goes to the Cary, so the Oppo does the processing. Digital HDMI or analog 7.1 is selectable. In either case, the front LR channels are passed through a Parasound JC-2 BP, surround channels go directly to amps, SW to a Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager that controls a pair of HGS-15 subs. To complicate matters further, a DirecTV HD-DVR connects via HDMI to the Oppo, and a Sony XA5400ES connects to the Cary via HDMI and XLR. For stereo, an Ayre C-5xeMP disc player and a JC-3 phono stage connect to the JC-2 via XLR. The Cary and subs are not used.

My advice: Keep it simple. In a secondary setup, an Oppo 95 is connected to an A23 that drives a pair of KEF LS50s and to a Velodyne SMS-1 that controls an HGS-10 sub. The Oppo does the processing and speaker management; the SMS-1 does acoustic room correction for the sub. This setup sounds damn fine.

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Old 06-24-2015, 03:54 PM
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Hey, Chris, you want complicated; I got complicated. HDMI-2 from my Oppo 105 goes to a Cary Cinema 12, so the Cary does the processing. Analog 7.1 from the Oppo goes to the Cary, so the Oppo does the processing. Digital HDMI or analog 7.1 is selectable. In either case, the front LR channels are passed through a Parasound JC-2 BP, surround channels go directly to amps, SW to a Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager that controls a pair of HGS-15 subs. To complicate matters further, a DirecTV HD-DVR connects via HDMI to the Oppo, and a Sony XA5400ES connects to the Cary via HDMI and XLR. For stereo, an Ayre C-5xeMP disc player and a JC-3 phono stage connect to the JC-2 via XLR. The Cary and subs are not used.

My advice: Keep it simple. In a secondary setup, an Oppo 95 is connected to an A23 that drives a pair of KEF LS50s and to a Velodyne SMS-1 that controls an HGS-10 sub. The Oppo does the processing and speaker management; the SMS-1 does acoustic room correction for the sub. This setup sounds damn fine.

db
I am not familiar with the sms -1 - but given your setup is almost oddly similar to my own I am interested in how to use this to provide room correction for your sub...part of the reason I am going down the path of trying to incorporate my AVR back into my setup is to manage the crossover and decoding for multichannel and subwoofers but my speakers right now sound fantastic with no correction whatsoever so the need there is more aligned with my sub(s)

I have a halo integrated in my second setup driving a pair of LS50s with a sb 2000 sub and I love the sound there too. it just doesnt get the use in that room enough for such great sounding speakers (IMHO probbaly one of the best purchases i have ever made as far as ROI goes) so I may end up bringing them back to my main room and using them as surround wides or rears in my current 5.2 (making it a 7.2 setup) but hopefully allowing my to also use them as a seperate 2.1 channel system too for evening listening when the wife is asleep.

i may have you beat in complexity but since my setup is not performing the way i want yet it is not really a good comparison...here it is for grins though

oppo 105d connected to AVR using HDMI and analog outputs to a ddrc88a for correction (havent got this part working yet) which feeds a p7 preamp via RCA cables (currently splicing up my own balanced cables though) which is then connected to a NAD m27 for surround channels and front left and right go into the jc-2 bp in bypass mode which goes to the A21 via balanced connections again. I als ohave a benchmark dac2 dx which i use to convert signal via USB from an auralic aries and my macbook pro occasionally but not often and a HDACC from essence which will take a second hdmi out from the oppo (or maybe my marantz ud7007) and then feed that my jc-2 BP (not in bypass mode). THe HDACC is pretty neat as it allows me to strip out the uncompressed left and right channels of blu ray /dts hd master/dobly true hd, etc. discs (not the two channel compressed lpcm you would get from the Oppo or other blu ray downmixing stereo on you). fun product for the cost. also have apple tv, multiple portable hard drives that get conencted to eiether auralic aries or oppo now and two NAS boxes for storage on the network which can be pulled by a variety of sources. i think i am forgetting a few other things too as it is a MESS of a setup. good times

B&W CM10s, CMC2, CM5s, SVS SB2000 x2, KEF LS50 x2, Infiniti Alpha 50 towers
Marantz SR7009, Marantz UD7007, T-PC50st60, Parasound JC-2 BP Preamp, Parasound Halo A21 Stereo Amplifier, Parasound Halo 2.1 Integrated Amplifier, Benchmark DAC2 DX, Essence HDACC Audio control Center,Marantz SR5009, Oppo DBP 105D, MiniDSP DDRCA-88A
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Old 06-24-2015, 04:13 PM
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Right, you'll need an HDMI switcher because the Oppo only has 2-3 HDMI inputs, IIRC, and one of them is intended for portable devices so it has a different connector.
The current Oppo players have 2 HDMI inputs, one on the rear panel and one on the front panel. The one on the front panel is MHL capable, which means it has some extra capabilities to work with smartphones and the MHL version of the Roku streaming stick, but it's the exact same connector and can be used with normal HDMI devices just as well as the rear connector, it's just less convenient to use for a permanent connection because it's on the front of the player.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:47 PM
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Hey, Chris, you want complicated; I got complicated. HDMI-2 from my Oppo 105 goes to a Cary Cinema 12, so the Cary does the processing. Analog 7.1 from the Oppo goes to the Cary, so the Oppo does the processing. Digital HDMI or analog 7.1 is selectable. In either case, the front LR channels are passed through a Parasound JC-2 BP, surround channels go directly to amps, SW to a Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager that controls a pair of HGS-15 subs. To complicate matters further, a DirecTV HD-DVR connects via HDMI to the Oppo, and a Sony XA5400ES connects to the Cary via HDMI and XLR. For stereo, an Ayre C-5xeMP disc player and a JC-3 phono stage connect to the JC-2 via XLR. The Cary and subs are not used.

My advice: Keep it simple. In a secondary setup, an Oppo 95 is connected to an A23 that drives a pair of KEF LS50s and to a Velodyne SMS-1 that controls an HGS-10 sub. The Oppo does the processing and speaker management; the SMS-1 does acoustic room correction for the sub. This setup sounds damn fine.

db
I think you just made my head explode. Now you guys are throwing in sound correction and stuff, jeez. I should probably just drop from this thread and head back into a nice Denon AVR one and be happy with small time sound.

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Old 06-24-2015, 08:02 PM
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Are most people here 2 channel stereo sound fans and have your setup mainly geared toward listening to music? Sounds like you are.
I'm sure some of you also have something for watching movies, but I've heard a few just don't care or like the movie stuff.

Which this is all fine, I'm probably more of a music fan than I am a movie fan, but I think I need my setup to be geared to cater to both.
My rare alone time to listen to music and my kids who want to watch movies while I wow them with the sound and visuals.
All while staying within a certain budget, lol.

I appreciate all the advice given here to me, I'll let the talk get back to normal Parasound questions. As you were.
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Old 06-25-2015, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
I am not familiar with the sms -1 - but given your setup is almost oddly similar to my own I am interested in how to use this to provide room correction for your sub... my speakers right now sound fantastic with no correction whatsoever so the need there is more aligned with my sub(s)
Connect the microphone that's provided to the SMS-1 via its XLR cable. The SMS-1 can do an automated setup, in which case it issues a number of tones that it measures, the results of which are displayed if a monitor is available. Then it begins adjusting the spectrum until a final setup is reached. The SMS-1 also permits an elaborate manual setup in which phase and level of spectral components can be adjusted. Of course, it limits its processing to frequencies in its output region, but those are the most critical for acoustic room correction.

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Old 06-25-2015, 02:31 AM
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I'm probably more of a music fan than I am a movie fan, but I think I need my setup to be geared to cater to both.
The simple setup I mentioned in the head exploding post, Oppo 95 to Parasound A23 to KEF LS50 speakers, is excellent for music and movies. If you substitute a 105 for the 95, it will also do Cable or Satellite TV via the HDMI connection in the rear; that's what I do with the more elaborate setup. A sub needn't be used to keep the setup even more simple. The SMS-1 bass manager I use has an automated mode in which you just connect its microphone and push three buttons on the remote. The SMS-1 measure tones it produces and makes the spectral adjustments. Or you can use a sub without acoustic room correction, as I suspect most people do.

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Old 06-25-2015, 04:41 AM
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Are most people here 2 channel stereo sound fans and have your setup mainly geared toward listening to music? Sounds like you are.
I'm sure some of you also have something for watching movies, but I've heard a few just don't care or like the movie stuff.
Yes. I have only a 2-channel system since music is my priority. I use the same system for movies, but don't care whether car doors slam in back of me (my critical listening is only for music; I don't critically listen to movie soundtracks, but rather critically watch movies). This way, I keep the system very simple: Parasound JC2/A21 2-channel combo driving a pair of Sonus Faber Olympica IIIs.
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:45 AM
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Yes. I have only a 2-channel system since music is my priority. I use the same system for movies, but don't care whether car doors slam in back of me (my critical listening is only for music; I don't critically listen to movie soundtracks, but rather critically watch movies). This way, I keep the system very simple: Parasound JC2/A21 2-channel combo driving a pair of Sonus Faber Olympica IIIs.
Nice. I figured this was the case, even though you're just 1 of many here, I'm starting to feel like I'm in the crowd of 2 channel stereo music fans.
Maybe I should just start there, build a nice setup for the music and expand later if I feel the need. With all the advice here I'm sure I could get it done well.

Which leads me to a question about my current setup. I have a lower end Denon 2313CI AVR, which has all my components going into it HDMI wise. I usually have to turn the volume up into the -56 to -60 range to get a good level, is this normal, or a sign of the weak amp in this lower end AVR? If amps were in the mix would it be a different looking number, not that the number matters at all to me I obviously don't know what they mean anyway, but it feels like I'm cranking it up a lot to get to a normal level, or is that just me not knowing what normal is?
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