Any word from Denon about the 2009 - 2010 AVRs? - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1065 Old 07-10-2009, 02:36 PM
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I think you're still confused, I don't know of any Onkyo receivers with Audyssey DSX. As far as I know the Denon AVR 4310CI is the first receiver with Audyssey DSX processing.

Again, I think you are off base as using Audyssey as a brand differentiator against Denon is clearly false; there is no receiver brand which has more fully embraced Audyssey technologies.

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post #992 of 1065 Old 07-10-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think you're still confused, I don't know of any Onkyo receivers with Audyssey DSX. As far as I know the Denon AVR 4310CI is the first receiver with Audyssey DSX processing.

Again, I think you are off base as using Audyssey as a brand differentiator against Denon is clearly false; there is no receiver brand which has more fully embraced Audyssey technologies.

And to that extent the 4310 has the XT version of Multi EQ

I do not see any other brand embracing and incorporating the Audyssey even near the level of Denon?
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post #993 of 1065 Old 07-10-2009, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenthScale View Post

And to that extent the 4310 has the XT version of Multi EQ

I do not see any other brand embracing and incorporating the Audyssey even near the level of Denon?

A listing of all receivers utilizing Audyssey is at Audyssey web site - Consumer products. Denon is usually the first brand to get the very newest functionality from the Audyssey group, then it is applied to several brands such as Integra, Onkyo, Marantz, and NAD. Just notice how many other vendors models besides Denon support Audyssey Dynamic Volume or MultiEQ XT now.

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post #994 of 1065 Old 07-12-2009, 01:06 PM
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First off, thanks for all the great info! I have spent the last 2 days scouring all of the information I can find on newer AVRs.

I am looking to upgrade my Integra 6.5 as it does not support HDMI. My original budget was ~$1000. After reading MANY opinions, it occured to me that I may not have the speakers and/or room acoustics required to justify the cost of an AVR in that class.

Here is what I have to work with:

Room is 10X20. Sheetrock. No treatments.
Paradigm Monitor 11v5 Mains
Paradigm ADP390 surrounds
Paradigm CC390 Center
Paradigm PW2200 Sub
No Rear speakers yet
I have 2 AV seats 9' from the TV

I started out looking hard at the 2809CI, but they appear to be hard to find. Now I am not so sure something lower end (or even non-Denon) might be a smarter more given my middle of the road speaker setup. I am looking for a good HT experience primarily.

I feel like I am spinning in circles.

All opinions/advice welcome!

David
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post #995 of 1065 Old 07-12-2009, 02:23 PM
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if you don't care about the video / networking stuff I would still go with the 2809/989 model as MultEQ XT is really excellent (especially since you are in a hard-surfaced, untreated room). Your room isn't THAT small and Paradigm speakers are very good (even the entry-level Monitor series) so I think you will be very happy.

The 2310/890 would probably do just fine also. I don't think there's such a thing as "overkill" really, UNLESS it means you are taking money out of your budget for things that matter more (e.g. speakers, sub, room treatments). For example, if you have a $1500 budget for your HT setup and you spend $800 on a receiver and then grab some cheap speakers because you are out of money.... you went "overkill" on the receiver, and should have spent more money on speakers. But if you already have nice speakers which you enjoy, and are just looking to find a nice receiver, you aren't going to make things WORSE by getting a better receiver...

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post #996 of 1065 Old 07-13-2009, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

BTW the fact that Denon is now using ABT 2010 video processing has nothing to do with them offering THX processing or not.

Well ABT is one of the few brands who have THX cert. for their video processor so i theory denon could go for a THX Video implementation . But i am sure you where talking about the audio side . THX video would not be a bad idea since there are so many 'badly' implemented video chains these days in AVR's.

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post #997 of 1065 Old 07-13-2009, 07:31 AM
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Is there a thread about what new Denon AVR models might be upgrade paths for current owners of Denon 3808 model? I have not been able to find one. If not could batpig or someone else who is really knowlegable start one? Thanks.

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post #998 of 1065 Old 07-13-2009, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafner View Post

Is there a thread about what new Denon AVR models might be upgrade paths for current owners of Denon 3808 model? I have not been able to find one. If not could batpig or someone else who is really knowlegable start one? Thanks.

fafner

See the Denon AVR-4310CI Thread

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post #999 of 1065 Old 07-13-2009, 10:40 PM
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I've seen some statements that refer to the 3310 having the Burr Brown DACs. But nothing on Denon's site appears to support that. It's not in the online specs or product sheet. But that being said, unlike the 2310, it doesn't say that it has Analog Devices DACs either -- it just doesn't say what it has. It does claim to have
Burr Brown ADCs (though a slightly different model than the 4310), so I might think it's likely to have some form of Burr Brown DACs as well. But is it possible it's a downgraded Burr Brown DAC as well? I really like the sound of the 4310 and 3808, but I'm tempted to go with the 3310 to save some money. But I want sound quality that will be pretty close to the 4310/3808.

Other than the DAC question, from what I can tell based on current info, the 4310ci adds the following over the 3310ci. I know some stated this earlier before specs were out, but if it's been written up since the specs were released on Denon's site I missed it. So here goes:
- 10 more watts (and 6.2 pounds to go along with it)
- 21367 x 2 32-bit Floating Point instead of x 1. I'm not sure if that directly means anything, but I assume it's part of the reason for things like MultiEQ XT over MultiEQ.
- AL24+ on all channels instead of just L+R. I'm not clear if this is of much value.
- Denon Link 4
- Front HDMI input
- Extra HDMI out
- Some extra legacy ins/outs
- HDMI SACD support
- MultiEQ XT
- Stereo/Direct Modes w/Pure Analog Path
- Wide Screen 7.1 Mode
- Neural Surround Mode XMHD
- Direct iPod support via front USB port
- Audyssey DSX (not even mentioned in the feature comparison, unless "Wide Screen 7.1 Mode" is supposed to mean that!)

It's a good list of extra features, but I'm not sure it's the best use of $500 extra that could be spent elsewhere. If the DACs are lesser though, might that make a big difference in SQ? I'm trying to sort out the 4310 vs 3310 decision and the unless I'm giving it too much weight, the DAC question would be a big missing piece.
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post #1000 of 1065 Old 07-14-2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
I've seen some statements that refer to the 3310 having the Burr Brown DACs. But nothing on Denon's site appears to support that.

It's not confirmed in any way... what you have read/heard was just speculative based on similar logic to what you had (e.g. "it has BB ADC's, so it seems logical it also has BB DAC's).


A couple of notes on your (very thorough and accurate) comparison list:
Quote:
- 21367 x 2 32-bit Floating Point instead of x 1. I'm not sure if that directly means anything, but I assume it's part of the reason for things like MultiEQ XT over MultiEQ.

your speculation is correct that this is primarily to enable MultEQ XT, which is only available on receivers which have a specific amount of DSP power to devote to Audyssey processing. If you compare the spec sheets, the 2809 (with MultEQ XT) had dual DSP's, and the 3310 (no XT) has only a single DSP (like 23XX and below).

Quote:
Audyssey DSX (not even mentioned in the feature comparison

The 4310CI is the first receiver in the world with Audyssey DSX, so I assume the fact it is missing from the spec sheet is simply because Denon's web dude hasn't added that "category" to their online spec database.

Quote:
It's a good list of extra features, but I'm not sure it's the best use of $500 extra that could be spent elsewhere. If the DACs are lesser though, might that make a big difference in SQ?

Actually, the DAC's would be one of the smallest reasons.... at that level of receiver, you are essentially assured of very high quality, transparent DAC's with a very high S/N ratio. The DAC's are not going to be the limiting factor in sound quality between a $1500 receiver and a $2000 receiver. The other features (especially MultEQ XT vs regular MultEQ) will have a much greater impact on sound quality improvement from 3310 > 4310 than a slightly better DAC...

And, besides, I'm sort of speculating myself -- it's impossible to separate the various reasons why Receiver X will sound slightly better than Receiver Y one step down the chain. I would just chalk them all up as "4310 will probably sound a little better than 3310" as one of your bullet points when deciding if you want to spend the extra money.

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post #1001 of 1065 Old 07-14-2009, 10:39 AM
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Thanks bkroger and batpig for your thoughtful insight, 3310 vs 4310 is where I am currently focusing...I have been / reading in some other neighborhood (Yamaha e.g.) but seem to be coming back to my old familiar neighborhood Denon.

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post #1002 of 1065 Old 07-14-2009, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvader View Post

Thanks bkroger and batpig for your thoughtful insight, 3310 vs 4310 is where I am currently focusing...I have been / reading in some other neighborhood (Yamaha e.g.) but seem to be coming back to my old familiar neighborhood Denon.

bvader,

I've got a 3310 set up and running. I can't tell you if it has Burr Browns inside it, but I'll be happy to answer anything I can about the unit.

Mark
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post #1003 of 1065 Old 07-14-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by santora View Post

bvader,

I've got a 3310 set up and running. I can't tell you if it has Burr Browns inside it, but I'll be happy to answer anything I can about the unit.

Mark

Any comments on the sound quality ? Can you determine the effectiveness of the 'prep' processing on standard def or 480 i/p video sources ?
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post #1004 of 1065 Old 07-14-2009, 02:12 PM
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I've integrated the 3310 into my setup at a basic level, mostly making all of the needed connections to the components and speakers and playing with the user interface a bit.

My previous setup was this:
Samsung LN-T4665F LCD TV
Denon AVR-3802 connected to TV via component
Cable/DVR box connected to TV via HDMI
PS3 connected to TV via HDMI
HTPC connected to TV via VGA, audio to receiver via RCA
Optical connection from TV to receiver to provide sound from HDMI connections.

New setup:
Denon AVR-3310CI connected to TV via HDMI
Cable/DVR box connected to receiver via HDMI
PS3 connected to receiver via HDMI
HTPC connected to receiver via HDMI

So needless to say, finally making the move to an HDMI enabled receiver really cleaned up the mess of connections that I had behind my equipment. Short of a minor issue that I had with no digital audio from the HDMI on the HTPC (was muted in ALSA), the only other issue I have run into is that I now see a vertical green band along the right edge of my picture when watching cable. It only happens on the cable input, not on the PS3 or HTPC. It's pretty annoying, and I have yet to troubleshoot if it is the cable box acting up or if the receiver is doing something weird. Tonite I'll try wiring it up directly to the TV again to see if it is the cable box's doing.

I did not experience any handshake issues. Switching inputs introduces about a second or so lag where there is no picture.

The receiver connected to my home network just fine. Yesterday when I powered it on and it grabbed a network address it also alerted me that there was a firmware update available, which I applied. The progress was shown on the front panel LCD, indicating the current item being updated (DSP, OSD, etc) and the time left. It took about a half hour for the whole process. I'm not exactly sure yet what the update addressed.

The OSD is pretty nifty and easy to navigate. Most of the options are pretty self explanatory, and there is a little area for a helpful blurb about what the option does. The picture dims slightly as it overlays onto screen. When the volume is changed it displays the volume level (such as -23.5 dB) slightly below the center of the screen. That is a welcome change from having to squint to see the volume level on the LCD of my old receiver.

I've played around with the internet radio, and it has quickly become one of my favorite features. My wife got excited when I loaded up some stations from Brazil and India (Samba and Bhangra are some of her favorite genres). Granted all of those stations and more are available to me through the HTPC, but on the receiver they are already nicely categorized and I can easily store my favorites. Having music at the touch of a button is especially important for my wife, who absolutely detests having to use the computer to listen to music. Together with the digital music channels that are available on the cable box, she now has several easy options to avoid doing that.

I must say that I was pretty disappointed in the HD radio, something I was looking forward to. I get a whopping 2 stations. I don't believe it is the receiver's fault, I think the reception in my area is just horrible. I am using the supplied indoor FM antenna. I might try wiring an outdoor antenna into the receiver to see if it improves. For now it is not a big deal since I will mostly be listening to the internet radio stations.

I haven't had a chance to run the Audyssey setup, so I can't comment on that aspect of it yet. Even without it the receiver has breathed new life into my older JBL Northridge series speakers. I am planning on replacing those with in-wall speakers in the next couple of weekends to clean things up even further; those northridges are an eyesore.

In the next few days I plan to run Audyssey MultEQ, then start playing around with the scaling settings to see if I can improve upon some of the SD content of the cable box. I also want to get Zone 2 setup to my old receiver, which will control the audio for the other common areas of the house.
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post #1005 of 1065 Old 07-14-2009, 02:31 PM
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great, thanks for the review! If you think the AVR has "breathed life" into your speakers, just wait until you watch a movie with MultEQ + Dynamic EQ engaged

you should head over to the newly formed 3310CI owner's thread and continue your thoughts there...

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post #1006 of 1065 Old 07-14-2009, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

great, thanks for the review! If you think the AVR has "breathed life" into your speakers, just wait until you watch a movie with MultEQ + Dynamic EQ engaged

you should head over to the newly formed 3310CI owner's thread and continue your thoughts there...

Ah, didn't see that there was a thread. Thanks batpig.
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post #1007 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 03:53 PM
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Is there a material difference in the video processing for a 1080p display when using the 4308, 4310, or 4810? Video processing (and Audyssey) is my primary purchase criterion.

Good noise reduction would be a plus, but only if it's very subtle.

I go component from a D* Hi Def Tivo unit (because that provides 480i with no scaling for SD, and still provides "unscaled" 720p and 1080i for the HD) and HDMI for a BluRay, a DVD, and an AppleTV. Display is a 1080p Kuro.

I only have five point one today ... but could easily add two height channels. Not easy/feasible to add additional speakers beyond more in front.
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post #1008 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 03:59 PM
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yes, the new '10 models (e.g. 4310CI) will be far superior to the 4308CI for video processing, as they use the new ABT-2010 chip from Anchor Bay versus the overmatched Faroudja chip in the '08 models (e.g. 3808CI and 4308CI). You can read through this review of the video processing in 3808CI (which is identical to that in the 4308CI) and see where the Faroudja chip falls short:
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/...at/index2.html

The only model before this year with truly good video processing was the HQV powered 5308CI.

If video processing + Audyssey features are the big priorities, go with the 4310CI vs the older 4308CI as not only do you get superior video processing, but you also get the newest Audyssey techology (Audyssey DSX for expanding beyond 5.1 with "wide" or "height" speakers). You should check out the 4310CI owner's thread for more info.

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post #1009 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 04:21 PM
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With respect to SACD, 4310 supports SACD over HDMI, 3310 I would have to feed analog into the AVR correct?

Long Live The Gorn!
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post #1010 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 04:30 PM
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Sorry to butt-in but the (tentative) specs of the AVR-4810CI are shaping up nicely. Without the amp section, this would make a compelling processor/pre-amp!
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post #1011 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

yes, the new '10 models (e.g. 4310CI) will be far superior to the 4308CI for video processing, as they use the new ABT-2010 chip from Anchor Bay versus the overmatched Faroudja chip in the '08 models (e.g. 3808CI and 4308CI). You can read through this review of the video processing in 3808CI (which is identical to that in the 4308CI) and see where the Faroudja chip falls short:
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/...at/index2.html

The only model before this year with truly good video processing was the HQV powered 5308CI.

If video processing + Audyssey features are the big priorities, go with the 4310CI vs the older 4308CI as not only do you get superior video processing, but you also get the newest Audyssey techology (Audyssey DSX for expanding beyond 5.1 with "wide" or "height" speakers). You should check out the 4310CI owner's thread for more info.

Can you explain exactly what you mean by "far superior video processing?"

Do you mean upconverting, scaling or what? What about Blu-Ray or DirecTV HD programing?

If we have 1080p HDTV's with great conversion what is to be gained from the new chip?

fafner

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post #1012 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 05:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB View Post

Sorry to butt-in but the (tentative) specs of the AVR-4810CI are shaping up nicely. Without the amp section, this would make a compelling processor/pre-amp!

You are in luck!
It is the AVP-CIX
Thanks to MagnoliaPro2 for posting it.
LL
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post #1013 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvader View Post

With respect to SACD, 4310 supports SACD over HDMI, 3310 I would have to feed analog into the AVR correct?

no you don't have to, if your SACD player can decode the DSD and output multichannel PCM over HDMI that would be another option, and then you wouldn't lose Audyssey and any other digital processing (e.g. bass mgmt).

The only thing you really lose out on for SACD's is "DSD DIRECT" mode, as any other mode would require the Denon to decode the DSD to PCM anyway.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fafner View Post

Can you explain exactly what you mean by "far superior video processing?"

Do you mean upconverting, scaling or what? What about Blu-Ray or DirecTV HD programing?

basically, read that link I posted for the 3808CI video processing. then go read the other tested models, especially the HQV ones like 5308CI and Onkyo 875.

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/608recfeat/

they do a better job of explaining it than I could. From what I understand, the primary benefits will be PROPER deinterlacing for 480i and 1080i signals, regardless of the cadence (e.g. 3:2 film material at 24fps or video material at 30fps), plus sharper scaled images that have less noise and artifacts.

For native HD material (e.g. Blu-Rays) you probably won't get much benefit.


Quote:


If we have 1080p HDTV's with great conversion what is to be gained from the new chip?

not so much; as is often repeated, the video processing in ANY external device (be it AVR, blu-ray player, etc.) is only of value if it is BETTER than the processing already in your TV. So it will really depend on how good your TV is, and you critical of a viewer you are. YMMV.

Perhaps you should check out the new 2310/3310/4310 owners' threads and see what owners are saying about the vid processing in the new units vs their TV's.

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post #1014 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 06:28 PM
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for some reason tonight i turn on my xbox 360 through component and optical on and all i get is bass through my sub, nothing thorugh the fronts. my 2310 worked fine with it last night. all connections are tight and the same as they were when they worked last night. it works through my other hdmi connections. what gives?
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post #1015 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by IwantmyTHX View Post

You are in luck!
It is the AVP-CIX
Thanks to MagnoliaPro2 for posting it.

OMG! A Dream come true......
Way to go Denon!
To make the waiting easier my 4310 will do just fine thank you.
Denon is making life worth living

dc

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post #1016 of 1065 Old 07-15-2009, 07:04 PM
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On the link to the AVP-CIX it doesn't mention Audyssey but I'm sure it has it.... right?
I like the balanced outputs and even inputs!
I wonder if Denon will bring out a matching multichannel amp?

dc

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post #1017 of 1065 Old 07-16-2009, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by IwantmyTHX View Post

You are in luck!
It is the AVP-CIX
Thanks to MagnoliaPro2 for posting it.

Crikey... this is going to make a lot of people very happy indeed! It's not based on the 4810 though, unfortunately.
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post #1018 of 1065 Old 07-16-2009, 07:01 AM
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as is often repeated, the video processing in ANY external device (be it AVR, blu-ray player, etc.) is only of value if it is BETTER than the processing already in your TV. So it will really depend on how good your TV is, and you critical of a viewer you are. YMMV.

Batpig...thanks for your comments. Ususally with at least 3 components in a video system (set top box/Blu-Ray Player, AVR, HDTV) it is getting increasingly difficult to sort out what if any video improvement will be gained by upgrading to a new AVR.

This is especially true for those of us who (1) have HD source content for almost everything we watch..either via Blu-Ray or DirecTV, and (2) who have a brand new HDTV.

Having had HDTV content available since its inception, I find it very difficult to watch anything in SD and rarely do so any more. Maybe an occasional sports event, or less likely a DVD.

Then there is the question of whether any AVR improvements can make a true difference in video quality, since with a new HDTV it does its own processing to fit its 1080p fixed display.

Net, in my opinion, for people like me judging any quality inprovement from a Denon 10 series AVR boils down mostly to whether there is an improvement in sound quality. And even there, with the exception of adding an extra pair of speakers for DPLIIz, the advantages seem to be in the area of "tweaking" rather than in basic sound quality.

I would appreciate your comments. Thanks.

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post #1019 of 1065 Old 07-16-2009, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no you don't have to, if your SACD player can decode the DSD and output multichannel PCM over HDMI that would be another option, and then you wouldn't lose Audyssey and any other digital processing (e.g. bass mgmt).

The only thing you really lose out on for SACD's is "DSD DIRECT" mode, as any other mode would require the Denon to decode the DSD to PCM anyway.


Thanks I have an Oppo BDP83 which does both:
SACD DSD bit stream over HDMI or straight to analog; SACD DSD to PCM conversion over HDMI and analog. trying to piece "the puzzle" together in my head.

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post #1020 of 1065 Old 07-16-2009, 09:28 AM
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Having had HDTV content available since its inception, I find it very difficult to watch anything in SD and rarely do so any more. Maybe an occasional sports event, or less likely a DVD.

Then there is the question of whether any AVR improvements can make a true difference in video quality

I'd pay a hefty AVR premium to get source and resolution specific noise reduction and sharpening. I use a Lumagen for this, and it actually makes 480i D* and DVD tolerable (not great, but tolerable). I also find it helps with D* "HiDef" sports.

My displays have good processing (a Kuro and a Marantz S4) but they don't approach the Lumagen
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