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post #1 of 550 Old 02-26-2009, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it just me or did dolby just rip a page out of yamaha 7ch Cinema DSP's playbook?

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...logic-IIz.html
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post #2 of 550 Old 02-26-2009, 07:15 PM
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I dunno. I haven't seen the Yamaha playbook you are referring to.

I''ve thought for years that my 5.1 needed a speaker directly above me for those aerial scenes in movies. Imagine a WW one dog fight with that sound matrix.

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post #3 of 550 Old 02-26-2009, 08:40 PM
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WOW. This is the 1st I'm hearing of PL IIz. So how new is this? Are there any receivers with PL IIz?

Ed
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post #4 of 550 Old 02-26-2009, 08:49 PM
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Did you think the makers and shakers of the audio world would sit still and let us enjoy our 5.1/7.1 sounds without coming up with another reason to sell us new stuff?

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #5 of 550 Old 02-26-2009, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekb View Post

WOW. This is the 1st I'm hearing of PL IIz. So how new is this? Are there any receivers with PL IIz?

Ed

Onkyo is first out of the gates with their soon to be released TX-SR607, which is the replacement for the 606. No news as yet on pricing or whether it will have 9 amps built in.

http://whathifi.com/News/CES-2009-Ne...urround-sound/

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post #6 of 550 Old 02-26-2009, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttskyline2001 View Post

Is it just me or did dolby just rip a page out of yamaha 7ch Cinema DSP's playbook?

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...logic-IIz.html

I think that the idea of "height channels" has been around for a while. I don't think that was Yamaha's idea.

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post #7 of 550 Old 02-26-2009, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttskyline2001 View Post

Is it just me or did dolby just rip a page out of yamaha 7ch Cinema DSP's playbook?

There are some differences. Yamaha generates ambience (reverb, early reflections) that wasn't in the recording, sends it to speakers placed higher and wider than the front L/R mains, in order to do room simulation (giving the impression of being in a larger space). PLIIz extracts ambience (mostly decorrelated info) from the recording itself, sends it to a pair of speakers directly above the L/R mains, in order to give subtle height cues (probably more useful with gaming than movies/music).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekb View Post

This is the 1st I'm hearing of PL IIz.

I mentioned it in the Integra 9.8 thread a couple months back, having just heard a demo at CES. There were one or two more post in other threads during the next couple of days, but nothing further. Maybe there will more interest whenever PLIIz equipped products actually hit the streets.

Sanjay
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post #8 of 550 Old 02-27-2009, 12:28 AM
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post #9 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 11:08 AM
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Several Japanese language websites reference a CES demo of Audyssey DSX (Dynamic Surround Expansion), another surround/vertical height enhancement technology, which provides upmix to 11.1 channels. [UNAUTHENTICATED image...]



Audyssey DSX places the LeftHeight/RightHeight speakers at 45 degrees from centerline; this is outside the 30 degree position ["above LeftMain/RightMain"] of corresponding speakers in the Dolby Pro Logic IIz (9.1 channels) and DTS Advanced NEO (rumored up to 12.2 channels) speaker configurations. However, it may be close to the position Yamaha currently uses for FrontPresence speakers, and might also be an acceptable placement under Dolby Pro Logic IIz.

Audyssey DSX places the LeftWide/RightWide speakers at 55-60 degrees from centerline. The DTS "7.1 Front Wide" [alternative] speaker layout places the LeftWide/RightWide speakers at 60 degrees from centerline [however, I'm uncertain whether LeftWide/RightWide speakers are used in the DTS Advanced NEO configuration...]

As Dolby Pro Logic IIz appears to include (and replace?) Dolby Pro Logic IIx, [and is already announced by Onkyo,] I expect we'll see DPLIIz "everywhere". The DTS and Audyssey technologies might have more acceptance issues...?!

AFTER THOUGHT: For each of my three surround systems (of varying age), either the LeftWide or RightWide speaker position (or both!) is unworkable for both floorstanding or bookshelf speakers were I to consider such an addition...
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post #10 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 11:48 AM
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Hellz yes!

I love these kinds of advances. Anyone have a good clue on when these will first start coming out? I know a new Onkyo AVR was mentioned, is there a date for that?

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post #11 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 01:43 PM
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The Onkyo 607 "should" be out in April or so, like last year's 606, and based on some reports here at AVS in the 2009 Onkyo xx7 thread.

AFAIK, some conjecture obviously,

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post #12 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 02:02 PM
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Audyssey's LW/RW seems a bit superfluous to me - if you've got those, what do you need the L/R's for?

Noah
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post #13 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 02:11 PM
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great another reason to shrink speakers even smaller and have more of them.. maybe I'm shortsighted but I can't see much use for any of this in 95% of most rooms... other than... to sell more equipment and give folks an excuse they need something new since they don't have the latest.

Really I think we need to focus back on making setups more capable with less speakers.. big speakers that can produce and implemented correctly is the way to go.. recently moving to 5.1 from 7.1 my room has never sounded better
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post #14 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 02:26 PM
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^^
I agree completely. Enough is enough. And I'm a surround sound junkie from 30 yrs ago.
Unless the front speakers are satellites or bookshelf style, why are any more needed?

I have a 7.1 setup with large Magnepan planar speakers & I couldn't imagine needing any "presence" or "wide" speakers. Anything I could add would be superfluous since mine already fill & envelop the room.

IMO, a marketing gimmick unless (again) one used small speakers as mains.

ss9001

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post #15 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 02:29 PM
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gee listen to sound coming from every corner of my room..... isn't that awesome never mind it sounds horrible and has inferior frequency response or ability to actually sound good with a realistic presentation...

perhaps I'm still a little jaded from having the luxury of Seaton's catalysts in my theater for a day ???
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post #16 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 02:45 PM
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From the Dolby site:

"With Dolby Pro Logic IIz, rain in a movie now seems to be actually falling on the listener’s roof"

I'm skeptical that it can do that very well for listeners 15 or 20 ft from the front wall.

Noah
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post #17 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 02:59 PM
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If you ask me, at some point, it's about the $$$

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post #18 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 03:05 PM
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The most effective use for the front effects speakers that Yamaha labels Presence Speakers is to lift center channel content for people that have the center channel located below the screen. It uses a portion of the center channel information and delivers it to the higher front channel effect speakers resulting in the perceived height of the vocals in the center of the screen. Yamaha labels this Dialog Lift. I have been experimenting with a single height channel located just forward and above the listening position for many years with mixed results. If the rear surrounds and ex channels are located in the correct position or if the ex channels are located above ear level behind the listening position it does give the sense of height for surround effect.

For people like me who run full range ex channels and also use them for DVD-A and SACD using the back speaker input on the multi channel input the additional height speaker above the listening position creates a better effect IMOHO.
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post #19 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 04:13 PM
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SMPTE 'Digital Cinema' 428M documented 20 'approved' speaker locations (including two LFE channels). However, it looks like DTS is already creating additional "unsanctioned(?)" speaker positions, although these may only be for playback [as opposed to authoring].

It seems to me that designing a [home] soundstage around speaker positions which are not widely accepted might result in a [somewhat] orphaned speaker configuration when you want to upgrade or need to replace a processor/receiver.

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post #20 of 550 Old 03-06-2009, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

SMPTE 'Digital Cinema' 428M documented 20 'approved' speaker locations (including two LFE channels). However, it looks like DTS is already creating additional "unsanctioned(?)" speaker positions, although these may only be for playback [as opposed to authoring].

It seems to me that designing a [home] soundstage around speaker positions which are not widely accepted might result in a [somewhat] orphaned speaker configuration when you want to upgrade or need to replace a processor/receiver.

That's why we install a boat load of extra wire in different locations in new construction homes before the sheet rock goes up. We document and photo the locations so we don't have to use a locater down the road. Shielded cat 5/6, CL-3 in wall speaker wire and RG-6 is cheap insurance for an upgrade path.





Dual locations for a projector swap as well

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post #21 of 550 Old 03-07-2009, 11:53 PM
 
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Yamaha got the RX-Z11 with an 11.2-channel configuration, already now for a good number of years.
So, it should not be long before Dolby Pro Logic IIz with a 9.2-channel setup.
And DTS with DTS+Neo6x with an 11.3-channel setup (4 height channels + 2 more
subwoofer channels).

I think we going to see Dolby Pro Logic IIz this year.
As for DTS, it will follow on the steps of Dolby, to remain competitive and outclass them.

That's my readings so far. And I think that Onkyo is going to take the lead.
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post #22 of 550 Old 03-09-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordoftherings View Post

Yamaha got the RX-Z11 with an 11.2-channel configuration, already now for a good number of years.
So, it should not be long before Dolby Pro Logic IIz with a 9.2-channel setup.
And DTS with DTS+Neo6x with an 11.3-channel setup (4 height channels + 2 more
subwoofer channels).

I think we going to see Dolby Pro Logic IIz this year.
As for DTS, it will follow on the steps of Dolby, to remain competitive and outclass them.

That's my readings so far. And I think that Onkyo is going to take the lead.

Twice website reports: 'Onkyo is targeting May or June availability of the A/V receiver, which will support the seven-channel configuration with height but will not the nine-channel one, said marketing and product planning manager Paul Wasek.' So I guess we'll have to wait to see whether that is a 7-speaker and 7-amp configuration [where you chose "7.1 standard" or "7.1 height" at setup time], or a 9-speaker and 7-amp configuration, current Yamaha style, [where you can chose "7.1 standard" or "7.1 presence(height)" on-the-fly].

Yamaha already has a loyal customer base with 9-speaker systems in place, that previously was somewhat predisposed to NOT switch brands [and so leave two speakers 'unused']. If competing brands release 9-speaker and 7-amp configuration receivers, I'm sure Yamaha will up the ante. The just released Yamaha RX-Vx65 model sequence is still 'missing' at least one 'higher end' model (rumored to be RX-V1065), which Yamaha has used to 'trial' the technology for the next Fall-release premium models, in prior years.

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post #23 of 550 Old 03-09-2009, 05:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

Twice website reports: 'Onkyo is targeting May or June availability of the A/V receiver, which will support the seven-channel configuration with height but will not the nine-channel one, said marketing and product planning manager Paul Wasek.' So I guess we'll have to wait to see whether that is a 7-speaker and 7-amp configuration [where you chose "7.1 standard" or "7.1 height" at setup time], or a 9-speaker and 7-amp configuration, current Yamaha style, [where you can chose "7.1 standard" or "7.1 presence(height)" on-the-fly].

Yamaha already has a loyal customer base with 9-speaker systems in place, that previously was somewhat predisposed to NOT switch brands [and so leave two speakers 'unused']. If competing brands release 9-speaker and 7-amp configuration receivers, I'm sure Yamaha will up the ante. The just released Yamaha RX-Vx65 model sequence is still 'missing' at least one 'higher end' model (rumored to be RX-V1065), which Yamaha has used to 'trial' the technology for the next Fall-release premium models, in prior years.

Thanks, I already read the news from Onkyo.

And by the way, the Yamaha RX-Z11 is an 11.3-channel configuration.
For an official confirmation, download their manual. It is the only one in
the world to do so, quite a feat.

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post #24 of 550 Old 03-09-2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Audyssey's LW/RW seems a bit superfluous to me - if you've got those, what do you need the L/R's for?

Properly miked concerts mixed/authored into the DTS-HDMA 7.1-FrontWide speaker layout should sound their best when played back on a matching speaker layout (instead of being remapped into [just] a 7.1-Standard speaker layout). But this is a chicken-and-egg problem: there is no incentive to mix 7.1 audio to be optimized [simultaneously] for two different speaker layouts unless there are in-place consumer playback environments to take advantage of the extra work...

If [single-ended] steering processors, like DPLIIz and Audyssey DSX, popularize some of the [SMPTE] additional speaker configurations, then discrete channel encoded material will eventually follow...

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post #25 of 550 Old 03-09-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordoftherings View Post

And by the way, the Yamaha RX-Z11 is an 11.3-channel configuration.

I believe that Yamaha's presence channels, including the four on the RX-Z11, are 'environment response' channels only, i.e., NO content is moved from any channel of the source 5.1/7.1 material to a presence speaker [with the possible exception of 'dialog lift']. This is different from the steering functionality in DPLIIz and DTS NEO:"whatever", in which content is relocated within the horizontal plane, and also from the horizontal plane to a vertical one [not just within the horizontal plane, as was the case with DPLIIx]. Yamaha has traditionally layered their own DSP onto Dolby and DTS processing, and I have no doubt we will see Yamaha CinemaDSP enhancement processing added to (native) DPLIIz as a Cinema/Music/etc. option.

[The RX-Z11's ".3" functionality is some kind of directional steering for redirected base [I don't recall if LFE content is steered in tandem...] However, I don't think the RX-Z11 [or any other receiver!] is ready to process 6.2 BDs [with an LFE/LFE2 channel pair], even assuming we ever get to see any...?!]

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post #26 of 550 Old 03-10-2009, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

I've thought for years that my 5.1 needed a speaker directly above me for those aerial scenes in movies. Imagine a WW one dog fight with that sound matrix.

DTS agrees with you and provides support for authoring and playback of DTS-HDMA BDs with a 7.1-CenterOverHead speaker layout, which includes a "voice of God" speaker. However, I'm not keen to mount a speaker over my head, so I'd be more likely to choose the 7.1-CenterHeight speaker layout [designed to mimic IMAX] as a safer alternative. Of course, no existing home receiver supports either 'alternative' speaker layout.

We'll have to wait to see if the 7.1-FrontHeight/9.1-FrontHeight speaker layout output from DTS NEO:"whatever" might also do an acceptable [overhead reproduction] job, but it might be tough to find good overhead mix content just yet. [Because the DTS product looks to be a combination of remapping and steering, the DTS-HDMA(NEO-decode) 9.1 channel results should be 'more realistic' than an equivalent (say) DTS-HDMA+DPLIIz [7.1 to 9.1] transformation...]

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post #27 of 550 Old 03-12-2009, 10:16 AM
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I wired my theater for 9.2 according to the Yamaha presence setup (I have the HTR-6090B). In the future when upgrading, I was going to get another Yamaha so I could utilize all of my speakers. This opens the door for me to explore getting an Onkyo as well.

Good news, I like Onkyo and more options are good.

On that note, I rarely use the front presence speakers. Hopefully the new technology uses all of the 9.1 at once rather than the 5/2 +sub or 3/4 +sub that Yamaha currently uses on most of its receivers.
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post #28 of 550 Old 03-12-2009, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

Did you think the makers and shakers of the audio world would sit still and let us enjoy our 5.1/7.1 sounds without coming up with another reason to sell us new stuff?

ain't that the truth!!
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post #29 of 550 Old 03-12-2009, 11:14 AM
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ain't that the truth!!

Yeah but it is great to have these new technologies. I am glad we aren't still playing CED's and VHS! Also, 50" HD Plasmas for <$1K good times...
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post #30 of 550 Old 03-12-2009, 11:23 AM
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I am so glad receiver makers have come up with new ways to make more money on their top level receivers. That way I can by the level of receiver below that for less $$s and get the features that are actually useful.
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