Official Cary Cinema 11a/11v Owner's Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Welcome to the NEW Cary Cinema 11a/11v owner's thread!

Special thanks to mrmike186 for his permission to close the old thread and to markrubin for all his help with the logistics.

Click here to jump to the previous Cinema 11a thread.

Click here to jump to the original Cinema 11 thread.

Please feel free to offer suggestions for posts 1 and 2. I hope you find the new thread informative and useful!






MSRP $4000.00 (as of Jan 1, 2009)
*******************************************
Cary Links

www.caryaudio.com
11A Owner's Manual
Cinema Series Brochure

*******************************************

Cinema 11A Specs and Features



*******************************************
LL
LL
LL
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post #2 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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FAQ

Quote:


Will the 11a support DPIIx for Dolby True HD, DTS HD MA codecs?

Yes. This feature now available with firmware v1.02
Quote:


Will the 11a upscale non hidef video signals to 1080i or 1080p?

No. The 11a is an audio only processor. All HDMI video signals will pass through in their native format.

Quote:


Can the 11a accept firmware updates and can I do it myself?

Yes. Firmware updates can be installed by the user with a PC via 9pin rs232 connection. See "Misc Links" below for latest firmware update available from Cary.

*******************************************

Reviews

Music in the Round #25 - Stereophile's Kal Rubinson's Review of the original Cinema 11

KNOWN ISSUES/BUGS

When playing back a movie in bitstream or analog PCM; if you pause, rew or ff and back to play, the bass is gone. If you hit "SETUP" and select "MOVIE MODE" the sub comes back and everything sounds as it should. It's clear reselecting the movie mode profile is re-engaging the sub but it could also be re-engaging the crossover and every other setting under the profile. Our first thought was that it was possibly switching to music mode on it's own but that is not the case as I had all speaker set to OFF under the music profile. It appears it's just bypassing or losing the profile settings during playback. This doesn't seem to happen with all discs but we were able to duplicate the issue with Iron Man, Dark Knight, Transformers and a few others. I was also able to duplicate this with my Velodyne SMS1 sub EQ. No output from the sub but after pressing SETUP, Movie Mode, the subwoofer returns. What's also important is this happens in HDMI and analog DSP. Issue can be replicated with multichannel analog in DSP mode.
Corrected with firmware v1.04

Users have claimed the Cary has trouble locking onto a DD signal but when changing the HDMI setting from bitstream to PCM, the Cary locks on pretty quickly. Not sure why this setting exists in the Cary since it should automatically determine bitstream or PCM.

Still a reported issue after firmware v.104

Some static and popping still occurs when locking on to an audio format. This will happen when a disc initially starts and when the disc changes audio format during playback.

Still a reported issue after firmware v.104

Cary default is Prologic IIx rather than the native format. You need to press the Dolby iix button to return to the native format. This did not occur before v1.03.
Corrected with firmware v1.04




Cinema 11a Features Wish List

-Speaker distance settings in .5ft increments. Currently only 1ft.
-Indepth Operations Guide. Current manual if very basic and lacks detail.
-Ability to assign "Music" or "Movie" profile to specific inputs.
-DialNorm or Dolby Volume Feature
-Independent trigger assignment. All 3 triggers assignable by input and by zone.
-HDMI Inputs 1 and 2 should be assignable to a specific input/s in the Input Setup Menu.
-The Lip Sync adjustment should be assignable and adjustable on a per input basis.

Misc Links

Firmware v1.04
Cinema 11a RS-232 Commands
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post #3 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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from Mike Lavinge's post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...29&postcount=6

ok, it's here.



time to replace the MC-12



excellent packaging; double boxed.



all the stuff; 2 remotes, mic and mic chord, manual, etc.



Cinema 11a, in black.



11a--rear.



11a on the shelf.



set up microphone....



above from Mike Lavinge's post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...29&postcount=6
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post #4 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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from Mike Lavinge's post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...72&postcount=7

First Impressions

my first concern was; will the Cary Cinema 11a pass the HDMI 1.3 video signal thru to my Crystallio II without any issues?

so far; a big yes to that most important question. after comparing the Sony BDP-S350 straight into the Crystallio II and then thru the 11a; no difference we could see.....which means spactacular picture in both cases.

room set-up. we had some issues with getting any signal to the subwoofer. eventually we got it working.....and we think the problem had nothing to do with the 11a. as we are not sure wha the issue was i cannot really explain it.

once that was resolved the auto set-up was easy. the only glitch was that initially it would not play any test tones. we discovered that we needed to switch the input to a non-HDMI digital input; then it worked great.

my Home Theatre room is untreated acoustically. it's not that i don't believe in treatment; my dedicated 2-channel room......

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/663.html

......is designed acoustically from the ground up. i have just not been psyched enough about movie sound up till now to bother with treatment for the HT room.

after the set-up we played some discs. WOW! i am impressed.

we started with the Blue Ray 'Master and Commander' (DTS HD Master Audio 48khz); the first 10 minutes or so. scary good. layers and layers of rich natural detail....there is nothing quite like a large sailing ship for interesting sounds.

dynamic range and clarity that makes your hair stand up. the first battle scene came alive and it was almost too much realism. even with so much bombast nothing was hard or screechy......it all had a natural balance and foundation.

i was very impressed that my room held up quite well to high SPL's and a very complicated and energetic soundfield after the room set-up program was run. it is too soon for any conclusions but i think that the set-up process paid some dividends for sure.

we then played 'Live Free or Die Hard' (DTS-HD MA 48khz)......and more of the same stuff. natural, real, no edge.

so far the 11a is everything i hoped it would be.

we are now experimenting to see if we can send the HDMI 1.3 first to the Crystallio II and then to the 11a. we do get sound but not the top level bit rate stuff.

how does the 11a compare sonically to my Lexicon MC-12 v.2? there is no contest; the 11a kills it from what i have heard so far.

i have not tried any 2-channel analog and i never intend to use it that way. OTOH if i get the chance i'll take it down to my 2-channel room and compare it to the darTZeel in the 'big-rig' to see how it does.

my HT system; Toshiba HD-XA2 HD-DVD, Sony BDP-S350 Blue Ray, Comcast HD, JVC D-Theatre, Cary Cinema 11a, Lexicon LX-7 power amp, (2) Velodyne 12" Servo F, Revel F-30, S-30, C-30, Paradgim Studio 20's. JVC RS-1, Crystallio II Video processor, ISCO III, Dalite 115" x 49" 1.5 gain 2:35 screen. the room is 19' x 16' x 9.5' and light control is very good but not perfect.
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post #5 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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From Jason Barbour's post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=63

Nice to see a dedicated thread to the new Cinema 11a! I thought I would offer some answers to some questions that have been posted so far.

The auto-setup feature on the Cinema 11a is FAR from perfect. Basically this setup feature is a stock auto-setup that comes on the Cirrus Logic chip we use. We did not design it or anything similar. We simply left it in place so that it could be utilized if someone wanted to use it. We seriously debated on completely turning this feature off, but in the end decided to leave it on since it was there already.

I recommend that most people perform a manual setup. As some of you are finding out, at times the auto setup can give some off the wall readings depending on your room. On most occasions, it works as it should but it is really not continually reliable. Simply put, it is not perfect and we do recommend using an SPL meter and performing a manual setup.


As far as the unit not recognizing dts-HD and Dolby TrueHD, this is almost certainly an issue with the Blu ray player or the disc itself. I have found in my testing that many discs (I Am Legend & 300 are two) that the default audio codec is standard Dolby or standard dts. On the remote of your Blu ray player there is an "audio" button. Pressing this will advance the unit to look to the next available audio codec which is the high resolution version. Also, the problem with Blu ray, the high resolution audio and the technology in general is that it is continually changing. Some times, there may be an update that needs to be installed on your player in order to get the high resolution audio formats to play properly. This poses a problem to almost everyone who is getting involved in building or purchasing these products today. As soon as you buy something, there is an update you have to download.


Someone also mentioned RS232 control. We are finalizing the RS 232 codes for the C11a now and should have it finished next week. We will post it on the website as soon as it becomes available. Do not use the RS 232 code from the original Cinema 11. Though this will certainly not hurt the unit if you try, it simply won't work as it is code for the older unit.

Oh, as far as the Iron Man Blu ray, something is definitely fishy with this disc. This is one of our test discs and it does, in fact, sound like the "late" function has been engaged when you watch it. This is very frustrating as I was very much looking forward to the release of this disc, but the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack just doesn't sound right. Being TrueHD, the dynamic range should be incredible like the TrueHD soundtrack of all other movies, but this one in particular sounds very compressed. Too bad.


I will try to check back in here every so often to answer your questions, but I can't promise that it will be on long-term, regular basis. I will try to do it once or twice a day.
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post #6 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Also, the problem with Blu ray, the high resolution audio and the technology in general is that it is continually changing. Some times, there may be an update that needs to be installed on your player in order to get the high resolution audio formats to play properly. This poses a problem to almost everyone who is getting involved in building or purchasing these products today. As soon as you buy something, there is an update you have to download.

I will try to check back in here every so often to answer your questions, but I can't promise that it will be on long-term, regular basis. I will try to do it once or twice a day.

I appreciate what is said here regarding complexity to a certain degree, but at the same time I have often thought of the following:
In the old days, the components needed to be thoroughly testet prior to release because it was very cumbersome to make changes/repair after shipping. Nowadays this situation has changed. A firmware upgrade feature is in principle for the better, but it also has a flipside to it. If the quality control is relaxed prior to deployment, issues and bugs can still be fixed via a firmware upgrade. It seems, to me at least, that most modern products exercises such a philosophy and the result is that the products are not testet and mature enough when it hits the market.

Cary Cinema 11a 08 - V1.08 HDMI & Audio onboard
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post #7 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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All,

Looking to expand on the wish list on page 2 of this thread. Please share reply with your "nice to have" features for the 11a so I can add them on.
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post #8 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

All,

Looking to expand on the wish list on page 2 of this thread. Please share reply with your "nice to have" features for the 11a so I can add them on.

How about a choice of "Listening Profile" for each input in the wish list. Not sure why it wasn't there to begin with. It would be nice if cary can add this.

Jose.
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post #9 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose View Post

How about a choice of "Listening Profile" for each input in the wish list. Not sure why it wasn't there to begin with. It would be nice if cary can add this.

Good one. I think that was added in the original letter... I'll add it above.
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post #10 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

All,
Looking to expand on the wish list on page 2 of this thread. Please share reply with your "nice to have" features for the 11a so I can add them on.

I still think it would be nice to have 3 independent triggers, instead of one trigger with three outputs. (and have the triggers assignable by input or surround mode or at least independently by zone...)

Not sure if the hardware even supports this though? - And I now have plans to now run triggers via an external controller. (it'd still be nice though
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post #11 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 08:56 PM
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Regarding Extreman's post from the old thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreman View Post

I think I found the (my) problem with freeze of the C11a (no buttons working).
If I have this situation and display says No signal, I remove the HDMI cable and then re-insert it. If the display then says that it locks on to a signal (e.g. PCM 2.0 from STB), then everything works again as expected. To me it seems that it is not reacting to any interrupts (from the remote or front panel) and apparently the root cause is HDMI lock-on. I am not sure if it is an overload problem or just some kind of a dead-lock bug. It happens quite often.

I had a short freeze like this for a few minutes today. I had some kids shows on in the background for my daughter while some of our friends were over. At some point, I noticed the sound had dropped for minute or so.

I went to check it out and saw PCM 48kHz in the display. (should have been DD 2.0, IIRC.) I thought it was just quiet due to the current DPLIIx issue, so I pushed the DPL button. - Nothing - Then power button. - nothing!

Since we weren't really watching it at the moment, I let it go. few minutes later the sound came back. I never really looked at it again to see if anything was changed.

To be fair, this channel has been having some audio dropouts on occasion. (and much less frequently, a video glitch or two. -- OTA PBS-kids) It seems that maybe after a signal dropout, the decoder never picked it back up or froze trying (?). Honestly though, every time there's the slightest glitch in audio, I'm just as apt to think it's the 11a as any other issue (TV, OTA reception, DVD...)
edit: this is firmware v1.03

I'm sure Cary will work out this bug and the couple of others. But I'm starting to wonder when. I know these things can take time, but it's a bit annoying. Oh yeah, that's just my $xxxx super-duper audio processor just hung. Sorry, can't watch cartoons right now.

-Chris
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post #12 of 1971 Old 03-08-2009, 11:41 PM
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One for the wish list Tony ; doubtful on thx so dolby volume [dolbys answer to audessey's volume eq]would be nice

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...by-volume.html
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post #13 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

One for the wish list Tony ; doubtful on thx so dolby volume [dolbys answer to audessey's volume eq]would be nice

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...by-volume.html

+1
Definitely! Same as Dialnorm. My previous processor had this. Very useful when channel surfing late nights.

Jose.
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post #14 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 04:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

One for the wish list Tony ; doubtful on thx so dolby volume [dolbys answer to audessey's volume eq]would be nice

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...by-volume.html

Good one.. added.
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post #15 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose View Post

+1
Definitely! Same as Dialnorm. My previous processor had this. Very useful when channel surfing late nights.

Added.. I wonder if there's a Dolby License involved since Dolby lists specific receivers with this feature. Would be nice to have but I bet it's more than just a software update that would be involved.
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post #16 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 10:00 AM
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Closing down the existing Cinema 11A owners' thread is very surprising to me and is completely unnecessary. It contained a wealth of information (old and new) (pro and con)for existing and future owners of Cary products.

And this thread is now the third thread within two years for the Cary Cinema 11-11A processors.

The Anthem D2/AVM50 thread simply changed its' title when the new D2v was recently released. All information is available in the one thread, now approaching 20,000 posts.

There is no doubt in my mind that the moderator has unknowingly done a disservice to future owners by allowing a third Cary Cinema 11 thread as the important information contained in the previous threads will now be extremely difficult, if not impossible to find.

Just my thoughts on the subject, as a past Cary Cinema 11 owner.

Stan
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post #17 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Gostan - a link to the previous thread is posted in post #1 and available for reading and any related research. We felt a new thread and an opportunity to consolidate specs, issues, known bugs and other related information on the first and second posts was necessary and keep things organized. Reported issues, feature requests, etc were all over the old thread. If anything, that would be hard to follow. We attempted to do this on the original thread but it wasn't technically possible.

I'm not sure why you would feel there was a dis-service done here? If all the posts are still intact and available to everyone, what's the difference?



Quote:
Originally Posted by gostan View Post

Closing down the existing Cinema 11A owners' thread is very surprising to me and is completely unnecessary. It contained a wealth of information (old and new) (pro and con)for existing and future owners of Cary products.

And this thread is now the third thread within two years for the Cary Cinema 11-11A processors.

The Anthem D2/AVM50 thread simply changed its' title when the new D2v was recently released. All information is available in the one thread, now approaching 20,000 posts.

There is no doubt in my mind that the moderator has unknowingly done a disservice to future owners by allowing a third Cary Cinema 11 thread as the important information contained in the previous threads will now be extremely difficult, if not impossible to find.

Just my thoughts on the subject, as a past Cary Cinema 11 owner.

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post #18 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 10:11 AM
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Stan, as you and I well know it will just be a new thread with the same old problems
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post #19 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Glad to see some non current owner's on the thread..
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post #20 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 11:46 AM
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I read throught and followed the old thread and have had help from some of the members. I remember that info and have no problem keeping up with this new thread.

My major concern on this piece is with it's decoding capabilities of older codecs. I don't think I can comment on the newer formats, because i am not sure the player bitstreams them well enough, or at all. I have a Panasonic BD10a and know that I need an updated player, but I still don't understand why the 11A can't seem to decode the DD properly.

My center channel seems so confined, no dynamic capability at all, whereas some of the effects are almost over the top in comparison.

I know that my room setup should be my first area of concern, so I'll state that I have a dedicated listening room that I have extensivley dampened and tuned for listening. I have a sound presure meter and have setup the 11A to exacting measurements. Still each time I watch a movie, I am not that pleased I have the 11a. I have even considered buying a player with great decoding capability and going back to an 7.1 analog pre.

I simply feel that a $4000 HT piece should be alot better out of the gate than it seems to be. I shouldn't have to taylor my listening to the 11a, but should be able to quickly get it to suit me. I have limited movie time and should be irritated for 2 days after about what problems it might have, or why it is just off on the sound tracks.
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post #21 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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cyclecrazy - I'm with you.. there is something funky going on with the decoding both in DD and TRUEHD. However, another update is scheduled next Fri, according to an email I just received from Cary so I reserve final judgement until then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecrazy View Post

I read throught and followed the old thread and have had help from some of the members. I remember that info and have no problem keeping up with this new thread.

My major concern on this piece is with it's decoding capabilities of older codecs. I don't think I can comment on the newer formats, because i am not sure the player bitstreams them well enough, or at all. I have a Panasonic BD10a and know that I need an updated player, but I still don't understand why the 11A can't seem to decode the DD properly.

My center channel seems so confined, no dynamic capability at all, whereas some of the effects are almost over the top in comparison.

I know that my room setup should be my first area of concern, so I'll state that I have a dedicated listening room that I have extensivley dampened and tuned for listening. I have a sound presure meter and have setup the 11A to exacting measurements. Still each time I watch a movie, I am not that pleased I have the 11a. I have even considered buying a player with great decoding capability and going back to an 7.1 analog pre.

I simply feel that a $4000 HT piece should be alot better out of the gate than it seems to be. I shouldn't have to taylor my listening to the 11a, but should be able to quickly get it to suit me. I have limited movie time and should be irritated for 2 days after about what problems it might have, or why it is just off on the sound tracks.

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post #22 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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All,

Just received an email from Jason. He wanted to confirm a couple of the reported issues and also informed me another update will be available next Friday. He also indicated the engineers are also looking into issues that they have identified above and beyond our last list of issues.

This sounds promising and a third update in just a couple of months is pretty good response if you ask me. I hope this is the mother of all updates..

From Jason;

"Thank you very much Anthony. We are working to resolve these issues and I hope to have the revised software available for download by next Friday. I know this is certainly a process, but rest assured we will get it right. Our engineers are working day and night to remedy all of the software related issues."

"We are currently working on the software problems you sent over as well as looking into a few other issues that we have found ourselves. We will post a revised version of software to our website as soon as it is finished.
"
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post #23 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 12:03 PM
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WISH LIST IDEA:

Ability to route the outputs for surround back left/right to bi-amp the front speakers. My old Arcam pre-pro had this capability, and it made an unmistakable improvement in my system. As a two-channel audio guy at heart, I don't ever see using the back channels. (I still don't see why you need more speakers behind you than in front of you...)
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post #24 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregeas View Post

WISH LIST IDEA:

Ability to route the outputs for surround back left/right to bi-amp the front speakers. My old Arcam pre-pro had this capability, and it made an unmistakable improvement in my system. As an two-channel audio guy at heart, I don't ever see using the back channels. (I still don't see why you need more speakers behind you than in front of you...)

That would be a function of an amp not a prepro. If you have a spare pair of outputs in your amp, you would just run another pair of speaker wire to the main speaker's second set of terminals. Some receivers offer this ability to use the rear surround power to use for biamping the fronts.
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post #25 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post

All,

Just received an email from Jason. Wanted to confirm a couple of the reported issues and also informed me another update will be available next Friday. He also indicated the engineers are also looking into issues that they have identified above and beyond our last list of issues.

This sounds promising and a third update in just a couple of months is pretty good response if you ask me. I hope this is the mother of all updates..

From Jason;

"Thank you very much Anthony. We are working to resolve these issues and I hope to have the revised software available for download by next Friday. I know this is certainly a process, but rest assured we will get it right. Our engineers are working day and night to remedy all of the software related issues."

"We are currently working on the software problems you sent over as well as looking into a few other issues that we have found ourselves. We will post a revised version of software to our website as soon as it is finished.
"

So, based on this, I guess I might tell my dealer that our findings are not a cruel vendetta against Cary after all I have never questioned their good will, only the performance flaws and way some things has been handled so far. I think the chances for a reconcilliation is bigger than ever. Instead of being the tread that scares people away, it might even turn into a tread that deserves some credit for resulting in a better product and less grief for new customers.

Cary Cinema 11a 08 - V1.08 HDMI & Audio onboard
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post #26 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregeas View Post

WISH LIST IDEA:

Ability to route the outputs for surround back left/right to bi-amp the front speakers. My old Arcam pre-pro had this capability, and it made an unmistakable improvement in my system. As a two-channel audio guy at heart, I don't ever see using the back channels. (I still don't see why you need more speakers behind you than in front of you...)


I totally agree with you statement about more speakers behind you than in front. I still maintain that a well setup 5.1 HT system can be as awesome as a 7.1, I just think with todays technology, it should be easier than it was a few years ago.

My Denon 3910 & Krell HTS with DVDs was simple to setup, use and excellent sounding. I sometimes wish I never desired the HD video of the Blu-Ray, because frankly I have not been satisfied since I opened that door.


Adidino
I hope also that the every other week of updates and recalibration end very soon as it interupts my actual enjoyment time.
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post #27 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

That would be a function of an amp not a prepro. If you have a spare pair of outputs in your amp, you would just run another pair of speaker wire to the main speaker's second set of terminals. Some receivers offer this ability to use the rear surround power to use for biamping the fronts.

I think he wants to do so without running a Y-cable. If the 11a were to do this, it would just be splitting the front channels inside and sending to both output. It does have the benefit of simpler cabling and possibly better sound quality. (depends on the amp and the ouput drive of the 11a)

-Chris
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post #28 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tommye1078
I going to send mine back. I have a RA# and will ship it tomorrow. I will let you guys know how things work out

Tommy - Did you get your unit back from Cary yet?
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post #29 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclecrazy View Post

Adidino
I hope also that the every other week of updates and recalibration end very soon as it interupts my actual enjoyment time.

I hope the updates are over soon as well. However - I suspect that there will be at least one more after this week. I would hope this weeks release will resolve most bugs - but due to the timeframe involved it seems likely to be a quick patch. And that Cary then take there time to fince tune and stabilize everything, regression test, and create a final stable release in another month or so...
(or maybe they'll nail it this time. who knows
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post #30 of 1971 Old 03-09-2009, 01:36 PM
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There is no mfg out there (To my knowledge) who has released a bug free version 1.0 system (audio or video) that utilizes HDMI cabling and/or the advanced audio codecs and/or the advanced color capabilities. Before any one gives me contrary examples, let me limit it to those things that process A/V signals not Sources like BR players, although they have issues or video displays. Generally the displays are the least affected (offer the most trouble free V1.0 FW), the sources next and the A/v pre/pro's last.

Some mfg's are a lot better at customer relations than others, some are just arrogant and some appear to have no clue as to what is going on or what makes good customer relations.

I believe Cary falls somewhere in the middle of the crowd, and is really trying hard to get this right. I do see improvement as time marches on. Maybe not as much as I want, but at least the direction is correct. As I used to tell my employees and my students, "I will not lower my expectations to meet your capabilities".

I have mellowed with age and have more patience, but less time. The TimePatience product is probably a constant throughout ones life.
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