AVR-3808CI - Setting up 7.1 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey all,

First time I've ever had the opportunity to set up 7.1 and I'm a little confused. I used the mic to set the EQ/Balance and all my speakers appear to be in the right configuration ... but when watching a non 7.1 movie (which is damn near most of them), the mid surrounds become my surrounds ... why? Am I doing something wrong here?

Any help/advice is MOST welcome.

Thanks in advance
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post #2 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 08:02 AM
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Not sure what your saying by "mid surrounds"? In a 7.1 setup you have "side surrounds" and "rear surrounds". Most of the surround effects will come form the side surrounds as it should, and not as much from the rears behind you, unless your listening to a bluray movie in HD audio. If you use the option Dolby PLIIx for regular movies, it will matrix in the rear surrounds.

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post #3 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirquack View Post

Not sure what your saying by "mid surrounds"? In a 7.1 setup you have "side surrounds" and "rear surrounds". Most of the surround effects will come form the side surrounds as it should, and not as much from the rears behind you, unless your listening to a bluray movie in HD audio. If you use the option Dolby PLIIx for regular movies, it will matrix in the rear surrounds.

Sorry, by mid I mean side ...

So here is my setup:


Front Left TV Front Right


Side Surround Left Side Surround Right




Rear Surround Left Rear Surround Right


When in 7.1, it appears to be fine ... but when it is not, I'm getting my normal 5.1 surround out of the sides, instead of the rears. Is this normal? Like I said, when I used the mic to do the balance/EQ thing, my speakers matched up perfectly to their OSD setup.

Sorry If I'm not being clear, totally new to the 7.1 scene ...
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post #4 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 08:15 AM
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I remember something about the 3808 not shipping with the Matrix rears active. I believe you have to go into the settings and turn them on. I know it was that way with the 4308 anyhow.

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post #5 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 08:22 AM
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On my Denon 2805 (old) there is a button on the remote for rears. I can cycle through the different options to turn them on or off, not sure about the 3808, don't own one yet.

Did you run the Audyssey setup on your 3808?

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post #6 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 08:43 AM
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Did you setup 7.1 for each spurce via the menus and then run Audessey? I have an explanation on how to setup 7.1 via this link in the Denon 3808 thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post14340110
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post #7 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASBEAN View Post

When in 7.1, it appears to be fine ... but when it is not, I'm getting my normal 5.1 surround out of the sides, instead of the rears. Is this normal?

yes, that is normal. 5.1 uses the SIDE surrounds, and 7.1 adds the REAR surrounds. this has NOTHING to do with Audyssey, you just are unclear on how 5.1 works.

If you want to matrix 5.1 > 7.1 to hear everything, set your SURROUND BACK parameter to DOLBY PLIIx CINEMA.

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post #8 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sting17 View Post

I remember something about the 3808 not shipping with the Matrix rears active. I believe you have to go into the settings and turn them on. I know it was that way with the 4308 anyhow.

Oh? Where might this be? (at work right now, will check it out when I get home)
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post #9 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirquack View Post

On my Denon 2805 (old) there is a button on the remote for rears. I can cycle through the different options to turn them on or off, not sure about the 3808, don't own one yet.

Did you run the Audyssey setup on your 3808?

Yes. That was the mic thing I was talking about earlier, sorry for the bad terminology. According to their OSD of the speaker layout, my speakers are setup properly. It hit each speaker in the proper position of the room.
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post #10 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverikm View Post

Did you setup 7.1 for each spurce via the menus and then run Audessey? I have an explanation on how to setup 7.1 via this link in the Denon 3808 thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post14340110

I'll check this out as soon as I get home, thanks!
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post #11 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

yes, that is normal. 5.1 uses the SIDE surrounds, and 7.1 adds the REAR surrounds. this has NOTHING to do with Audyssey, you just are unclear on how 5.1 works.

If you want to matrix 5.1 > 7.1 to hear everything, set your SURROUND BACK parameter to DOLBY PLIIx CINEMA.

Really!? That makes no sense though ... Why if you have 7.1 setup would you want the rear surround coming out of the mids in a non 7.1 viewing?

I don't disagree though, I think I'm missing a concept here to as how 7.1 works. The bottom line is that in a non 7.1 movie, I want my surround coming out of the back, not the middle. Same applies for a 7.1 ... I want surround out of the back and the side surround doing side surround.

What is this matrix concept?

Thanks all, I really appreciate this.
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post #12 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASBEAN View Post

Really!? That makes no sense though ... Why if you have 7.1 setup would you want the rear surround coming out of the mids in a non 7.1 viewing?

If it doesn't make sense tell that to Dolby and DTS labs and let them know. That is the way 5.1 works!! the surrounds are SUPPOSED to be on the sides!!

Quote:


I think I'm missing a concept here to as how 7.1 works.

No, you are missing a concept as to how 5.1 works!

Quote:


The bottom line is that in a non 7.1 movie, I want my surround coming out of the back, not the middle.

That's not how 5.1 works. A 5.1 soundtrack is specifically mixed with the surrounds on the SIDES.

go look at this Dolby speaker diagram and notice that in 5.1, the surrounds are on the sides:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_e...omlayout2.html


Quote:


What is this matrix concept?

To "matrix" means to synthesize additional channels of content from fewer channels. For example, Dolby Pro Logic II (PLII) synthesizes 5.1 channels out of stereo (2-channel) material. And Dolby PLIIx can synthesize 7.1 channels out of 2.0 or 5.1 material.

So what we mean is that, if you are listening to a 5.1 soundtrack, you can turn on PLIIx processing and it will create synthesized 7.1 soundtrack out of the 5.1 channels, by matrixing some of the sounds from the surrounds (sides) into the rears. It won't touch your front soundstage (left/right/center) at all, it will just "activate" the rears.

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post #13 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASBEAN View Post

Oh? Where might this be? (at work right now, will check it out when I get home)

I don't remember. I'm at work too. I can go looking through it when I get in front of the OSD. Just to clarify the back two speakers terminals come activated they just don't have the matrix setting activated. I will also be turning my 5.1 setup into a 7.1 in the next week or so. Just bought a home and have the room now. I was anticipating having to go into the settings and changing mine as well. My Boss has the 4308, and within conversations with the Denon Rep we discovered one has to turn the matrix setting on. We found this out about a year ago or so when the receiver first came out. Sorry I can't be more descriptive, I just need to sit in front of the OSD and look through it. I need a 10/100 behind my rack or else I would just go into the setting remotely and tell you where the setting is. This would be one of the few occasions having the 3808 attached to the network would be handy. LOL

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post #14 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASBEAN View Post

Why if you have 7.1 setup would you want the rear surround coming out of the mids in a non 7.1 viewing?

Because it's not "rear" surround. The idea is to have sound wrap around you, not just from behind. That's why the 2 surround channels are sent to the speakers along your sides, not the ones in the back. If the soundtrack contains surround-back channel(s), then that information is sent to the speakers in the back.
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Originally Posted by DASBEAN View Post

What is this matrix concept?

When playing stereo content through 2 speakers (even 2 surround speakers), some sounds will end up phantom imaging somewhere between the speakers (i.e., behind you). Matrix processsing extracts those sounds and sends it to the speakers at the back, actively cancelling them from the speakers at your sides (so those sound don't come from two directions).

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post #15 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

yes, that is normal. 5.1 uses the side surrounds, and 7.1 adds the rear surrounds. This has nothing to do with audyssey, you just are unclear on how 5.1 works.

If you want to matrix 5.1 > 7.1 to hear everything, set your surround back parameter to dolby pliix cinema.

+1

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post #16 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I think I understood for the most part what you have all said ... but now when playing with the surround modes, I'm a little confused.

So inevitably, what 'should' I be using? What is the preferred surround sound method that most used? Again, the big thing that irritated me was when I'm sitting in my chair in the back of the living room, I hear the surround sound in a 5.1 movie coming out of the mids instead of behind me.

Thanks
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post #17 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, mav ... this:

Parameters --> Audio--> Surr. Parameters--> SB CH Out --> PLIIx Cinema

I don't have anything after SB CH Out except for "on" or "off".
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post #18 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 02:14 PM
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I think you need to go to Dolby's website to understand the difference between 5.1 and 7.1. Your side surrounds, not mid, are the ones that are active the most in both 5.1 and 7.1. If your wanting the rears only to be active during non 7.1 movies, you are not understanding, or you have your speakers setup incorrectly. When you go to movies, the surround effects come from the sides primarily, and some from the rear channels, not just rears.

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post #19 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirquack View Post

I think you need to go to Dolby's website to understand the difference between 5.1 and 7.1. Your side surrounds, not mid, are the ones that are active the most in both 5.1 and 7.1. If your wanting the rears only to be active during non 7.1 movies, you are not understanding, or you have your speakers setup incorrectly. When you go to movies, the surround effects come from the sides primarily, and some from the rear channels, not just rears.

Well, I'm starting to understand that now ... but I've had 5.1 for many years now and I'm having a hard time understanding why you'd want your surround sound coming out of the side vs. the back like in 5.1? Again for my setup, my chair is in the back of the room under my rear surround but in a 5.1 movie I'm hearing the surround sound come out of the side surround instead of the rear. From what I'm reading, this is the way it's supposed to be, and I just can't see the logic behind that. I want the surround sound to be behind me, not in front.
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post #20 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 02:56 PM
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if your chair is in the back of the room you shouldn't even have 7.1. your surrounds (sides) should not be in FRONT of you as you describe.

the regular surrounds should be to either side and slightly behind you for 5.1. if you have several feet BEHIND you then you can SUPPLEMENT the side surrounds with rear surrounds to fill in the surround field. But, once again, the SIDE SURROUNDS are the PRIMARY surround speakers.

sounds like you forced 7.1 into a room that wasn't meant for it....

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post #21 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

if your chair is in the back of the room you shouldn't even have 7.1. your surrounds (sides) should not be in FRONT of you as you describe.

the regular surrounds should be to either side and slightly behind you for 5.1. if you have several feet BEHIND you then you can SUPPLEMENT the side surrounds with rear surrounds to fill in the surround field. But, once again, the SIDE SURROUNDS are the PRIMARY surround speakers.

sounds like you forced 7.1 into a room that wasn't meant for it....

Yeah I don't think I fully knew was 7.1 was then ... I always thought that 7.1 was two surrounds as mids to compliment the rears. Most of the seating in the room though should be just fine though. The only real problem really is the recliner and another seat.

Well with all this said, what is my best bet for the surround mode? Should I stick with Direct or use the Matrix mode?
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post #22 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, after looking at Dolby's site ... I now realize, I'm dumb. I put the side surrounds in the wrong spot ... which is really awful for me because I can't really redo the wiring at this point. I was lucky enough to redo the basement when I bought this house and I ran my wiring down and back up, but I'm not sure If I'm going to have the ability to fix this. This is very disappointing and I'm rather upset right now. All I had to do was put the mid surrounds several feet back and I'd have an ideal setup ...

THIS SUCKS!

What are your recommended options at this point?
- Revert to 5.1
- Use Matrix or another surround mode
- Hate life
- Knock down a bunch a drywall and start over

Thanks again all
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post #23 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 03:23 PM
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Speaker placement is important. Not sure what to tell you to do.

I would assume your rears are two close together to effectively run 5.1 with only those?
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post #24 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Speaker placement is important. Not sure what to tell you to do.

I would assume your rears are two close together to effectively run 5.1 with only those?

See attached ... this is what I have right now ... (please don't make fun of height difference ... my sister's boyfriend cut the holes for me, and yeah, as you can see, he didn't measure, ugh).
LL
LL
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post #25 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 03:49 PM
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why don't you run in 7.1 mode all the time? If the soundtrack is 7.1, let it play as is, and if the soundtrack is 5.1, use PLIIx CINEMA to matrix to 7.1. Then, you should be "surrounded" by the soundfield wherever you are.

That seems to be the best solution since moving the in-wall speakers will be a PITA and the 5.1-only soundtracks will be compromised in the rearward seating location.

FYI - don't use "DIRECT" mode on the Denon, that is a specific mode which treats all speakers as "large" and you don't want that for in-wall speakers. (you can read the audio section of my FAQ to understand more about Direct mode).

Use the "Standard" or "Cinema" button to engage the "default" decoding mode:

DOLBY DIGITAL + PLIIx CINEMA for 5.1 DD tracks
DTS + PLIIx CINEMA for 5.1 DTS tracks
PRO LOGIC IIx CINEMA for 2.0 stuff

etc.

this will engage all 7 speakers at all times, as long as the SURROUND BACK speaker parameter is engaged. You should only have to do this once as the Denon's "auto surround" function will remember your preferences depending on the input signal.

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post #26 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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bat - If I run in 7.1 then in non 7.1 movies the surround is in front of me instead of behind me... the whole reason I started this thread. Again, maybe I'm missing something here?

So in my surround mode menu, should I just leave it on PLII for all my devices? You guys are the experts, just tell me what to do
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post #27 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, another question ... Do I need to run the Audyssey setup for each of my devices?
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post #28 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 04:28 PM
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Quote:


bat - If I run in 7.1 then in non 7.1 movies the surround is in front of me instead of behind me... the whole reason I started this thread.

well, the point is that the matrixing (Pro Logic IIx) will "wrap" the surround field behind you when it does the 5.1 > 7.1 upmix. It should sound more natural than leaving 5.1 as 5.1, since the rear speakers will be engaged. I think that's the best-case-scenario for your current setup.

Quote:


Do I need to run the Audyssey setup for each of my devices?

No, the receiver only stores one Audyssey configuration which calibrates your system at "reference" levels for any input source.

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post #29 of 33 Old 04-10-2009, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Very cool ... (hopefully) my last question ... I'm not understanding where you and others have said to use Pro Logic IIx with Matrix. When I go to my surround options, I can select either Matrix or PL IIx. That and I don't always see PL IIx in my options (such as now, playing Xbox). Yet again, am I missing something obvious here?

Thanks again!
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post #30 of 33 Old 04-11-2009, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DASBEAN View Post

Very cool ... (hopefully) my last question ... I'm not understanding where you and others have said to use Pro Logic IIx with Matrix. When I go to my surround options, I can select either Matrix or PL IIx. That and I don't always see PL IIx in my options (such as now, playing Xbox). Yet again, am I missing something obvious here?

Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by DASBEAN View Post

Also, mav ... this:

Parameters --> Audio--> Surr. Parameters--> SB CH Out --> PLIIx Cinema

I don't have anything after SB CH Out except for "on" or "off".

As per my original post in the 3808 thread
You do not need to go into the surround menu at all, I think this is where a lot of people screw up.

What you need to do is make sure you have gone into the Denon menu and selected Manual Setup--> Option Setup--> Amp Assign -->7.1 CH

Then select your source (DVD, Blu Ray etc.,) Start up the DVD or Blu ray and select an audio format (lets say Dolby Digital) in the DVDs menu, once themain movie starts bring up the Denon menu up and select:

Parameters --> Audio--> Surr. Parameters--> SB CH Out --> PLIIx Cinema

do this for all of your sources AND audio formats (Dobly Digital 5.1, DTS, LPCM, TrueHD, DTS MA etc.,) once that's all set for all sources and audio formats that you want to apply PLIIX to the reciever will store your settings in memory. If you've done it correctly when you playback the movie it will read on the reciever Dobly Digital + PLIIXc, or whatever audio format you chose. You will also see the 5.1 speaker lights on the left hand side lit up for input and the 7.1 speaker lights lit up on the right hand side on the reciever's display.
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