*OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 1910/790 Owner's Thread - Page 121 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by standay View Post

So, if any of you have some suggestions to boost the bass WAY WAY UP, I'd appreciate them. Maybe I need to be looking for a different series of amps, ones that are more "old school" than these newer things meant for movies and surround. If that's the case let me know what you'd recommend.

Stan -- it would be very helpful if you actually told us what SPEAKERS you have! This is a pretty relevant piece of information to leave out when you are trying to understand what is happening with the sound quality.


Quote:


It had something on it that amps always used to have called "loudness" (extra emphasis at the very lowest and highest ends). I'm trying to get that out of the denon with NO luck.

LOUDNESS has been replaced by the superior DYNAMIC EQ, which does the same thing but is able to intelligently compensate the amount of bass depending on your absolute loudness level. It is based on the same exact principle as the old "loudness" function but now has the advantage of decades of additional auditory research and processing technology developed at Audyssey's labs at USC.

So, big question: have you run Audyssey???

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Old 12-21-2009, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Stan -- it would be very helpful if you actually told us what SPEAKERS you have!

Ah, yes. The main ones are Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater. The big gray monsters. The others are a medium sized JBL. Both the Altecs and the JBLs use only a horn and a woofer in each enclosure and both are from the late 70s. The JBLs are good, but the Altecs are much better. I'm not trying to match them, I just prefer extra low/high eq overall.

Quote:


LOUDNESS has been replaced by the superior DYNAMIC EQ, which does the same thing but is able to intelligently compensate the amount of bass depending on your absolute loudness level. It is based on the same exact principle as the old "loudness" function but now has the advantage of decades of additional auditory research and processing technology developed at Audyssey's labs at USC.

OK, that's good info, thanks.

Quote:


So, big question: have you run Audyssey???

No, I haven't. I usually prefer manual control but I'll give it a try. I did mess with the manual eq some more and found I can get closer to the sound I want by reducing the center freqs. Still not as "warm" as I'd like but closer.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Stan
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You know .. I don't recall anyone ever actually bringing that button up to use it for for the HDMI Control function. I would guess it works when the AVR is in Standby (turning HDMI Control ON/OFF). If you look at your Owner's manual (p. 28), you'll see you need to set HDMI Control to ON and the Standby Source to HDMI1 (in your case as that is where you have the ATT box connected). Then when you place the AVR into Standby, the ATT box should pass the audio and video through to the TV. Make sure any HDMI-CEC feature in the TV is turned OFF.

Thanks JD. It almost works. When I turn the avr off (I guess that's standby, left off button) the tv will now stay on and sound comes from the tv, which is good. But, if I have everything off and use the uverse remote to turn on the tv, it cant find a siginal until I turn the receiver on.
HDMI control = On
Standby source = HDMI1
PoweroffCtrl = OFF

Make sure any HDMI-CEC feature in the TV is turned OFF

I dont know what that means.
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:26 PM
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PowerOFF Control should be ON. HDMI-CEC is the feature that allows you to use the TV remote to control the Denon ... .in Samsungs (Anynet+), Panasonics (Viera Link).

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Old 12-21-2009, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standay View Post

Ah, yes. The main ones are Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater. The big gray monsters. The others are a medium sized JBL. Both the Altecs and the JBLs use only a horn and a woofer in each enclosure and both are from the late 70s. The JBLs are good, but the Altecs are much better. I'm not trying to match them, I just prefer extra low/high eq overall.

Stan - are you running both speakers in an A+B configuration (i.e. "quadraphonic")? And do you have a subwoofer or any other speakers? Or strictly a 2-channel setup (4 speakers on 2 channels)?

The one issue with running A+B together (if I am assuming correctly that is what you are doing) is that modern amps do not have the "balls" of some older amps, and older speakers tend not to be as efficient and easy-to-drive as modern speakers. I don't know about your speakers specifically but this may be an issue trying to run all four speakers off two amps.

It you are running this A+B setup, I would suggest you hook up the "B" speakers to the SURR.BACK speaker terminals (not the "B" speaker terminals) which can be reassigned to power the front channels, so you will have four amps for four speakers. At the Audyssey setup screen set AMP ASSIGN to "FRONT B BI-AMP" and set the Front Speaker setting to "A+B", and then it will equalize the two speakers summed response together and you will have more power/headroom available with one amp per speaker.

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Old 12-21-2009, 03:32 PM
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Still no signal.
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:38 PM
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Got that working now...Had to figure out how to turn off anynet.

Thank you very much JD!!!

And thanks to Batpig for all of his documentation!
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Stan - are you running both speakers in an A+B configuration (i.e. "quadraphonic")? And do you have a subwoofer or any other speakers? Or strictly a 2-channel setup (4 speakers on 2 channels)?

Den: JBLs as "A" spkrs; + 2 small Jensen rear surrounds + 1 small subwoofer
Front Room: Altecs as "B" spkrs

Not "quad" as I remember that term, but 2 separate listening areas: room 1 and room 2. Room 1 has the TV, surround and the SW. Room 2 is just for music, no TV or other requirements in there, just simple stereo 2-spkr listening.

Quote:


The one issue with running A+B together (if I am assuming correctly that is what you are doing) is that modern amps do not have the "balls" of some older amps, and older speakers tend not to be as efficient and easy-to-drive as modern speakers. I don't know about your speakers specifically but this may be an issue trying to run all four speakers off two amps.

Ouput levels do not seem to be a problem. The Altecs are very efficient, JBLs less so. So there is a bit of an imbalance in terms of perceived tone and volume when walking from one room to the other, but that's not a problem in the way we use it. It's the overall sound "color," mostly low-end freqs on both A and B spkrs that is really anemic (at least as compared to the JVC amp and my ears).

Quote:


It you are running this A+B setup, I would suggest you hook up the "B" speakers to the SURR.BACK speaker terminals (not the "B" speaker terminals) which can be reassigned to power the front channels, so you will have four amps for four speakers. At the Audyssey setup screen set AMP ASSIGN to "FRONT B BI-AMP" and set the Front Speaker setting to "A+B", and then it will equalize the two speakers summed response together and you will have more power/headroom available with one amp per speaker.

Yes, it's running as A+B. I can try what you suggest but first I just want to see if I can get the sound eq straightened out by running the Audyssey thing first. I don't want to introduce too many variables at once.

Stan
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kpalsm View Post

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Originally Posted by Mit Man View Post

I'm interested in this receiver because I've heard good things about its video processing, but as a competitive gamer who requires minimal input lag, I was wondering if anyone has done any proper input lag tests when upscaling 480p or 480i sources to a 1080p output.

I'm more concerned about 480p. My current Sharp Aquos SE94U does a pretty good job of upscaling with minimal input lag, but it isn't quite good enough. When I upgrade to a real sound system with a real receiver and speakers, I'd like for it to be great at upscaling and to simply pass a 1080p signal to my monitor, with very minimal input lag (less than my monitor's).

Anyhow, just wondering if anyone has done any serious input lag tests when upscaling through this Denon 790. If it can get the job done, it'll seal the deal with me and this receiver

Isn't the above described phenomenon what Lip Sync technology in receivers is supposed to combat? I know my AVR254 has Lip Sync but I've never had to use it, I don't upscale with my receiver, I use my laptop.

I would assume a "Lip Sync" technology would merely delay the audio long enough to match how long it takes to upscale the video. This is exactly the kind of thing that produces input lag, however. You press a button, and some milliseconds later, after the video has been upscaled from the source, you see the reaction. Looking to have an instantaneous reaction, which requires some sophisticated/powerful upscaling technology.

If I find that there aren't many receivers that focus on this sort of thing, I'll probably look into something like the DVDO Edge to process all video, and use a receiver strictly for sound. Although it would be infinitely more convenient to have it all done in one receiver.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:12 PM
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Dynamic Volume? Yes or No?

I like that it reduces the impact of the commercial volume differential, but I'm also finding it muffles some of the effects that I "enjoy" (my home theater is 2 stories from my kid)... Anyone else find the same thing?

I actually re-ran Audyssey last night using a borrowed tripod and found one of my speakers out of phase. I thought, this can't be true, I just wired them. Sure enough, I'd reversed the red/black on my center channel. Ha!
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Dynamic Volume should be used when you are fiddling with volume control all the time. One example is the transition from programming to commercials. Another is when you turn up the volume on the movie to hear the dialogue, then have to scramble to turn it down because the explosions start and blow you away.

There is no "right or wrong", it depends on what works for you in your listening room.

Some people have large rooms with nice speakers and want to let 'er rip with no restraint on dynamic range. No need for Dyn. Volume then. In my setup, as an alternate example, I live in a townhouse with a shared wall and thin floors, so I tend to use Dynamic Volume 100% of the time (except for with music) with movies, TV, and video games, otherwise I am jumping for the volume control to head off the complaints from the wife!

For example, if I tried to watch a modern action flick with the wife without Dyn Vol on, she would be yelling at me constantly and I would be hogging the remote, tweaking the volume up to hear dialogue and then quickly tapping it down when the action start. But with Dyn Vol on the "Evening" setting, I can watch an entire movie with the wife without touching the volume once!! That, my friend, is a miracle.

Note that there are three levels of "strength" for Dyn. Volume and the default level (midnight) is the strongest mode, which is probably why you found that it sounds muffled. Try setting it to the "Evening" setting which is much more moderate. Midnight is only really needed in extreme (e.g. late at night and don't want to wake the kids) situations.

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Old 12-21-2009, 04:33 PM
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Ah - there are diff. moes for Dyn. Volume. Did not know that. For me I only really want the most extreme things (that cause us to grab the remote) to be compressed - like commercials, or our local PBS station which can vary a ridiculous amount from the rest of our stations.

I will try it with Evening on and see how that goes. I do go rushing for the remote now and then (this is pre-home theater, just with TV speakers) so I was looking forward to Dyn. Volume, but if it muffles things too much it's not worth it.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standay View Post

Den: JBLs as "A" spkrs; + 2 small Jensen rear surrounds + 1 small subwoofer
Front Room: Altecs as "B" spkrs

Not "quad" as I remember that term, but 2 separate listening areas: room 1 and room 2. Room 1 has the TV, surround and the SW. Room 2 is just for music, no TV or other requirements in there, just simple stereo 2-spkr listening.

OK, gotcha. Again, would have been helpful if you had laid this all out from the start! Since you are running two setups in two separate areas, then forget about my suggestion for the "bi-amp" setup and stick with your current A/B setup.

On a side note, you may not be aware but there is a "Front speaker setup" setting under "Speaker Setup" which allows you to pre-designate the "B" speakers for 2-ch listening and the 5.1 setup (A speakers) for multichannel listening. See pg 27 of the manual. You can also configure bass management separately for 2-ch modes (under the 2ch direct/stereo menu, see pg 29 of the manual).


Anyway, back to the main story.... the key problem now is that you can only have one Audyssey configuration, which in your setup should be used for the 5.1 setup with "A" speakers. You cannot separately apply Audyssey to the secondary 2-ch "music only" speakers in the other room. So when you run Audyssey, run it with just "A" speakers selected and you should get a nice surround sound experience in the den.

The problem is then with those AL's in the front room.... I'm not sure what to do then as you say you have already fiddled with the Manual EQ and tone controls to try and coax more bass out of them.....

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Old 12-21-2009, 04:45 PM
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I recently purchased a PS3 slim and hooked it up using HDMI. I set it to bitstream and that is working just fine for me, bit I've noticed the following behaviour: when I pop in a bluray disc and it starts up, I hear a loud pop sound from all speakers.

There were a old thread that describe a similar problem with PS3 (fat) and Onkyo. If you recently purchased this PS3 Slim get an exchange and see if the pops reoccurs.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Since you are running two setups in two separate areas, then forget about my suggestion for the "bi-amp" setup and stick with your current A/B setup.

OK.

Quote:


On a side note, you may not be aware but there is a "Front speaker setup" setting under "Speaker Setup" which allows you to pre-designate the "B" speakers for 2-ch listening and the 5.1 setup (A speakers) for multichannel listening. See pg 27 of the manual. You can also configure bass management separately for 2-ch modes (under the 2ch direct/stereo menu, see pg 29 of the manual).

OK, I'll check the manual and try that too.

Quote:


Anyway, back to the main story.... the key problem now is that you can only have one Audyssey configuration, which in your setup should be used for the 5.1 setup with "A" speakers. You cannot separately apply Audyssey to the secondary 2-ch "music only" speakers in the other room. So when you run Audyssey, run it with just "A" speakers selected and you should get a nice surround sound experience in the den.

OK.

Quote:


The problem is then with those AL's in the front room.... I'm not sure what to do then as you say you have already fiddled with the Manual EQ and tone controls to try and coax more bass out of them.....

The eq issue is with both A and B. So I'll run the auto setup and see if that helps. I did lower the center freqs in the manual eq and that helps some.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll try them as soon as possible and let you know what happens.

Stan
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:25 PM
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I'm in the market to find something to match my new Pioneer 101FD (feels like I got the last one in town )

I initially looked at the 790, 590 and Pioneer VSX-919.
Reading around a bit I'm attracted to either the 790 or 590.

I'll be connecting an SA8300HD (Hi def PVR), a PS3 slim and an old VCR (composite out only, no s-video). And potentially a HTPC in the future as an OTA ATSC PVR

My intent is go only with either 2.0 or 2.1 sound - don't need / want all those speakers.
(The real home theatre is downstairs with a DLP front pj and 7.1 surround.)

Now, as I understand it my Kuro has a video scaler already, so do I need the one in the 790? Anything else the 790 will provide over the 590 that I should consider?
I've read the first post comparing the 590 and 790.. want to make sure I haven't overlooked anything.

BTW if anyone can recommend a set of full range bookshelf or compact speakers please let me know
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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save your money for speakers and go with the 590, Pio Kuro's have among the best video processing out there and you won't improve much with a budget AVR. Especially since it will be a 2-ch setup, the speakers are much more important than the AVR.

Quote:


BTW if anyone can recommend a set of full range bookshelf or compact speakers please let me know

there is no such thing as "full range" and "compact". If you can't fit giant tower speakers, get a 2.1 setup with two nice bookshelves and a good sub. You did not state a budget, but these Energy RC-10's are a fantastic value at their current $299 sale price from Vann's:

black: http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it...05/energy-rc10
cherry: http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search

Mate them to a nice compact sub, like the Energy ESW-V8 (click here) and you will have a pretty killer little 2.1 setup for around $525 total. If you can afford a little more ($580 total) and don't mind the slightly larger footprint, the larger ESW-V10 is even better, click here for price at crutchfield.

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Old 12-21-2009, 05:54 PM
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thanks. I'm no audiophile hence the lack of emphasis on sound quality.

Would you consider a 689 in this situation? My local big box has it on clearance for about half the price of a new 590.
Shame about the Vann's deal - they don't ship to Canada
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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the 689 is fine if you will never need HDMI audio and will never expand to a multichannel setup with Blu-ray. Its HDMI inputs are video passthrough only. It also cannot convert analog video to HDMI so you can't do the "one cable to the TV" setup if you have any non-HDMI sources.

It does have the same basic Audyssey features, and you can get lossless 2-ch audio over optical from a Blu-Ray player, so if it's just a simple setup with a BDP and a cable box and you will never go past 2.1 then it will work fine.

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Old 12-21-2009, 07:46 PM
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Hey guys,

I just picked up the 1910 a few days ago and I will be hooking it up sometime this week. I will be using the Klipsch Quintet III's as a 5.0 set up until I can upgrade sometime in the near future.

I have a small Sharp subwoofer that came with a HTIB, and I was wondering if there was a way to hook that up to the receiver and have it act as a subwoofer (since it only has inputs for speaker wire).

If it's pointless, I will leave it as a 5.0 setup and continue to save for the eD A2-300.

Thanks for your time! This thread was very helpful while deciding on a receiver purchase!
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:05 PM
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Hey batpig - thanks for the Dyn. Volume tip. Setting it to "evening" made it a lot less muffled, but mostly took care of the commercial volume differential. Are there any "quick buttons" to get to that or do I have to go through the OSD to find it if I want to change it (between day/evening/midnight)?

BTW - this thing has the worst remote known to mankind (and I've used many crappy ones). Can't wait for my Harmony 700 to arrive. Sheesh.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:31 PM
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Is this a ready good deal for $397 shipped for a brand new avr 1910? I missed out on a open box HK AVR-254 for $199.99 with only the receiver. Would it be better to wait for the Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K?
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:01 PM
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That sounds like a really good deal, Naruto. Pick that up. Be glad you missed the AVR254; I have one and I wish I had bought one of these instead. In fact I'm probably going to sell my 254 and buy one.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYY64 View Post

I have a small Sharp subwoofer that came with a HTIB, and I was wondering if there was a way to hook that up to the receiver and have it act as a subwoofer (since it only has inputs for speaker wire).

If it's pointless, I will leave it as a 5.0 setup and continue to save for the eD A2-300.

You have two options:
(1) Set all speakers to LARGE (moderate volume only) until you get the A2-300 (certainly less hassle if you don't have long to wait) or
(2) If the Sharp sub is a powered sub you can connect it with speaker wire to the 1910. Connect the left and right front channel speaker outputs of the 1910 to the left and right channel speaker level inputs on the Sharp subwoofer. Then, connect the left and right channel speaker outputs on the back of the subwoofer to the left and right channel front speakers. Rerun AUTO SETUP which will still set sub to NO, however, lower frequencies will be routed to the sub.

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Old 12-22-2009, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mit Man View Post

I would assume a "Lip Sync" technology would merely delay the audio long enough to match how long it takes to upscale the video. ...If I find that there aren't many receivers that focus on this sort of thing, I'll probably look into something like the DVDO Edge to process all video, and use a receiver strictly for sound. Although it would be infinitely more convenient to have it all done in one receiver.



I have done only one quick test and it seems to me that the Denon its doing a better job eliminating Video Lag than my Sammy LN650 with the processing and Upscaling....today I'll try Modern Wrfare 2 sniping... the ultimate test
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:12 AM
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Standay:"Den: JBLs as "A" spkrs; + 2 small Jensen rear surrounds + 1 small subwoofer
Front Room: Altecs as "B" spkrs

Not "quad" as I remember that term, but 2 separate listening areas: room 1 and room 2. Room 1 has the TV, surround and the SW. Room 2 is just for music, no TV or other requirements in there, just simple stereo 2-spkr listening."


Batpig:
"The point is that the A+B speakers share the same amplifier, and running two speakers off one amp will double the impedance load. So it applies to BOTH speakers because they are both being driven by that one amp."

JDS:
"The point that note is trying to make is that ideally you should connect higher ohm speakers in that configuration (12-16ohm recommended). When you connect the speakers in parallel (A+B) the impedence will decrease, so if you run (8) ohm speakers they will each be reduced to 4 ohm speakers, whereas if you connect (4) 12 ohm speakers their impedence would be reduced to only 6 ohms. Denon generally recommends connecting only 6-16 ohm speakers, although folks have connected 4 ohm speakers and run them at moderate volume without any issue."



I though zone 2 will be through SurrBacks....so Stan is indeed using 2 amps for 4 speakers...I guess the question is , are you doing listening in both rooms at the same time???
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDAL View Post

I have done only one quick test and it seems to me that the Denon its doing a better job eliminating Video Lag than my Sammy LN650 with the processing and Upscaling....today I'll try Modern Wrfare 2 sniping... the ultimate test

If that's the ultimate test, then my setup passes. I can 99% snipe by sound alone, the other 1% is aiming for the head
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcricket View Post

Hey batpig - thanks for the Dyn. Volume tip. Setting it to "evening" made it a lot less muffled, but mostly took care of the commercial volume differential. Are there any "quick buttons" to get to that or do I have to go through the OSD to find it if I want to change it (between day/evening/midnight)?

there is no way on the factory remote but there will be once your Harmony shows up!

check out the link in my signature, once you get your Harmony account established you can email the tech support and ask them to copy over all the codes from my Denon device profile (username "batpigworld") and you will have access to discrete buttons for Day/Evening/Midnight, among the other goodies.

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Old 12-22-2009, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVIDAL View Post

I though zone 2 will be through SurrBacks....so Stan is indeed using 2 amps for 4 speakers...I guess the question is , are you doing listening in both rooms at the same time???

Yes, I was assuming it would be one or the other. The setup he is considering is not really a "Zone 2" setup, but rather more of a "movie setup" versus a "dedicated music setup" where he wouldn't need to play both at the same time, or operate a different source in each room. If that assumption is not correct than Zone 2 may be a better way to do things.

If they will never be used at the same time, however, the Front A/B configuration is a simpler method which allows instant switching between your 5.1 setup and your dedicated 2-ch setup. Not only does it spare you from the analog-only restriction of Zone 2, but it also frees up those two amps so you can still run 7.1 in the main setup if you want. Plus, you have more audio control over the B speakers versus the Zone 2 speakers. You can't, for example, apply a Manual EQ curve to your Zone 2 speakers!

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Old 12-22-2009, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

.... but it also frees up those two amps so you can still run 7.1 in the main setup if you want. Plus, you have more audio control over the B speakers versus the Zone 2 speakers. You can't, for example, apply a Manual EQ curve to your Zone 2 speakers!

Awesome, now that is something I did not think about before (no zone 2 limitations)...I'll definitely have that set up in the future.
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