*OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 1610/590 owner's thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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yes, it is true. the EQ filters created for each speaker are independent of basic setup things like channel levels, crossover freq., small vs large, etc.

and yes, the box disappearing is just a signal saying "you are no longer using the default Audyssey setup". If you "Restore" the defaults (Auto Setup > Parameter Check > Restore) the box will come back.

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post #362 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noscivic View Post

I went ahead and bought the 590, even though nobody responded to my post post comparing it to my Sony, and I am impressed that a low priced receiver can sound so much better than my higher priced(at the time) Sony.

Anyway back to Dr Pepper's problem. I was noticing, when messing with the menu, there is an input signal strength and the default is at zero. Go into the receiver's menue for the source that is being inputted and check the level. I believe the strength can be raised or lowered by 12db. YOu might want to check to see if it has been changed from the default of 0. You can increase the level and see if it helps the problem. BTW, I have the level increased +5 for my cable box, since the volume from my cable provider has always been weak.
Also, what color is the light under the Audyssey marking on the front of the receiver? WHen mine is red, the sound is perfect. When the light is green it cuts the sound considerably.


Gary

I found the setting you are speaking of. It was set to 0. I pushed it up to +5 and it made a noticable difference. With that setting -25 on the main volume is now a comfortable listening level.

Batpig,

Will adjusting this setting mess up the audessey eq?

btw i tried resetting the processor and re-running the setup first ,,but no change.

thanks

Sharp LC-60SQ15U
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post #363 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Pepper View Post

I found the setting you are speaking of. It was set to 0. I pushed it up to +5 and it made a noticable difference. With that setting -25 on the main volume is now a comfortable listening level.

Batpig,

Will adjusting this setting mess up the audessey eq?

Adjusting the source input levels won't affect EQ settings at all. It's basically just a volume adjustment.
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post #364 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 04:39 PM
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I unfortunately have a problem setting up the Denon using Auto Setup. I plug in the set up microphone, and get the Audyssey setup screen. I set it to run but I get an error that either the speaker is "none" or the microphone is "none". The speaker sounds fine with loud test tones. I even put the microphone right next to the left speaker to no avail. Could I have a bad microphone or the input on the receiver for the mic can be bad? It is a shame that I would have to give the whole unit back for just a bad accessory. Let me know if you have any ideas and thanks in advance!
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post #365 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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yes, sounds like a bad mic. stop by your local Best Buy and they may be willing to exchange it for you with a different mic.

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post #366 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero383 View Post

Adjusting the source input levels won't affect EQ settings at all. It's basically just a volume adjustment.

Basically correct -- it's just a volume control. Adjusting the source input level to +5 only changes what volume number you are on. Having the volume at "-25" with the source level at "+5" is the same thing basically as having the volume at "-20" with the source level at "0".

The difference is that you have changed the reference point for Dynamic EQ, so with the increased source level (and resulting lower volume) Dynamic EQ will apply extra compensation and you may get excessive bass.

It's better to simply turn the volume up.

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post #367 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

actually, the LFE+MAIN setting does nothing if his speakers are set to small! It's only relevant for speakers set to LARGE, it's basically the "double bass" setting which allows the subwoofer to play not only the LFE signals (LFE), but also duplicate the low-freq sound from the main speakers (+MAIN). If the speakers are already set to "small" then the SW is already getting the redirected bass from the main speakers.

oconnells - I'm assuming Dynamic EQ is on (red light) since that is the default setting after running Audyssey. What are your speakers channel levels set to, and what are your crossovers for all of your speakers? When you run the manual test tones (manual setup > speaker setup > channel levels) do you hear the sub rumbling?

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply
Here is the information you requested.

Channel levels are as follows:
Front L = + .5dB
Center = - 6.0dB
Front R = + .5dB
Surround R = + .5db
Surround L = - 1.0dB
Subwoofer = -7.0dB

Crossover levels are as follows:
Front = 40Hz
Center = 60Hz
Surround = 80Hz

SW Mode = LFE+Main (set this way at the recommendation of other poster)

I do hear sub rumbling

Thanks for all you help in this matter.

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post #368 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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try raising crossovers to 80Hz all around. your crossovers are very low on the L/C/R speakers so not much bass is being redirected to your sub.

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post #369 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 09:02 PM
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I bought the 1610 tonight at Best Buy and the guy there said if I hook my DVD player up with component cables to the 1610 then HDMI to my TV it would upconvert the video to 1080. But it is 480p instead. Is what he said true?
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post #370 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

try raising crossovers to 80Hz all around. your crossovers are very low on the L/C/R speakers so not much bass is being redirected to your sub.



Hey batpig, I'm running a pair of Monitor 60's with a CS2 center and PSW10. Would you recommend the same for me? It detected them as 40hz for the m60's and 60hz for the cs2
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post #371 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgilges View Post

I bought the 1610 tonight at Best Buy and the guy there said if I hook my DVD player up with component cables to the 1610 then HDMI to my TV it would upconvert the video to 1080. But it is 480p instead. Is what he said true?


No. See the first post of this thread. The 1610 converts analog video to hdmi but will not scale it.

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post #372 of 5202 Old 08-07-2009, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiveohno View Post

Hey batpig, I'm running a pair of Monitor 60's with a CS2 center and PSW10. Would you recommend the same for me? It detected them as 40hz for the m60's and 60hz for the cs2


You didn't even have to tell me what speakers you have; the answer would still have been yes.

Read this: http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/

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post #373 of 5202 Old 08-08-2009, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You didn't even have to tell me what speakers you have; the answer would still have been yes.

Read this: http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/




Good read. I had already left my speakers set to small. Audyssey had actually set them that way anyway. It seems weird that it would set them to small, but put the crossover at 40hz...

I understand that the sound loses directionality below 80hz. Doesn't the argument then become, "will the subwoofer do a better job at creating good clean sound below x". Like if my front 3 speakers do a great job playing say 70hz, wouldn't it sound better to have all three of them belting it out, vs the subwoofer?

That said, just after a quick bit of testing, the system seems to sound better with them set to 80hz.

You think that is ideal, crossovers no lower then 80hz and the LFE at 120hz? (my sub doesn't have LFE inputs)
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post #374 of 5202 Old 08-08-2009, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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As a general rule of thumb... Yes

but the final judge is really your ears.

The one x factor is that multeq has much more powerful eq filters on the sub channel, so in theory you should get much flatter/cleaner bass letting the sub play that bottom octave.

Also, it's important to think about the fact that a crossover is not a brick wall. There is a crossover slope so if the mains are set to 80hz they are still playing plenty of content at 70, 60...

The decision on the crossovr point is done by denon, not audyssey. It's a "dumb" system which just picks the lower xover point above the measured bottom end of your speakers. That's why it's definitely worth fiddling with the crossovers a bit to see if you can get a smoother "blend" between sub and sats.

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post #375 of 5202 Old 08-08-2009, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

As a general rule of thumb... Yes

but the final judge is really your ears.

The one x factor is that multeq has much more powerful eq filters on the sub channel, so in theory you should get much flatter/cleaner bass letting the sub play that bottom octave.

Also, it's important to think about the fact that a crossover is not a brick wall. There is a crossover slope so if the mains are set to 80hz they are still playing plenty of content at 70, 60...

The decision on the crossovr point is done by denon, not audyssey. It's a "dumb" system which just picks the lower xover point above the measured bottom end of your speakers. That's why it's definitely worth fiddling with the crossovers a bit to see if you can get a smoother "blend" between sub and sats.




Ahh, great answer! That makes perfect sense. I appreciate the help!
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post #376 of 5202 Old 08-08-2009, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

yes, sounds like a bad mic. stop by your local Best Buy and they may be willing to exchange it for you with a different mic.

Surprisingly it wasn't the mic (I tried it in the best buy store and it worked). I brought home anther 590 and it worked fine with the setup mic. Seems like I got a bad unit. So far so good with the replacement. Thanks for your help.
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post #377 of 5202 Old 08-09-2009, 12:06 PM
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I run a Denon 790. Yesterday I picked up an Open Box 590 from Best Buy, here in Vancouver for $350 CDN ( 790 cost me $650).

Is it my imagination, but the 590 does not sound like an entry level Receiver and the 790 is definitely not $300 better?

In fact despite having 1 less HDMI and being a 5.1 ( my front heights in the 790 are useless) its probably a better buy.
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post #378 of 5202 Old 08-09-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger View Post

Surprisingly it wasn't the mic (I tried it in the best buy store and it worked). I brought home anther 590 and it worked fine with the setup mic. Seems like I got a bad unit. So far so good with the replacement. Thanks for your help.

Avenger, you already have a solution, but for others who may run into this I'll share an alternate approach. I found that the mic input on my unit really needed a lot of insertion force (> 10 lbs.). At first I inserted the expected travel distance and felt the detent. When I got the error, I pushed really hard for a small travel distance and felt a much stiffer detent, accompanied with a loud click. That solved my problem. Although that insertion force speaks to the quality of the receiver, for as infrequently as I'll be using the mic, I can live with it.
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post #379 of 5202 Old 08-09-2009, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insync44 View Post

Is it my imagination, but the 590 does not sound like an entry level Receiver and the 790 is definitely not $300 better?
.

well first off the msrp gap is only $150...

But there's no reason to expect them to sound different. They are built on the same chassis, have basically the same amp section, same dsp chip, DAC's, Audyssey stuff, etc. What you are paying for is the extra HDMI, 7.1, video scaling, and other little feature differences.

You are right that for many people the 590 is a better buy.

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post #380 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 02:50 AM
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I recently bought the 590 and ran Audyssey, keeping the distance settings, but not the crossover and channel level settings as they sounded a little too weak for my taste. But I have a quick question - I have the crossover on my subwoofer set to around 90-100hz. What should it be set at if I set the crossover in the receiver to 80hz?
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post #381 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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follow the Audyssey setup guide, a Jedi you are not (yet) Qui Gon :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

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post #382 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGonJosh View Post

I recently bought the 590 and ran Audyssey, keeping the distance settings, but not the crossover and channel level settings as they sounded a little too weak for my taste. But I have a quick question - I have the crossover on my subwoofer set to around 90-100hz. What should it be set at if I set the crossover in the receiver to 80hz?

On the sub itself, set the LPF to the max or OFF if possible. On the receiver, set the LFE to 120hz and leave it alone (this is not a crossover, there is another option in your Speaker settings for that).

What did Audyssey set your Crossovers to? It's not a good idea to change your crossovers to a lower value than what was originally set by the Auto Setup because it will mess up the calibration. You can increase it though.

Or just ignore what I said and read Batpig's guide.
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post #383 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero383 View Post

On the sub itself, set the LPF to the max or OFF if possible. On the receiver, set the LFE to 120hz and leave it alone (this is not a crossover, there is another option in your Speaker settings for that).

Why would I set the LFE on the receiver to 120hz? I have it set at 80hz now and it seems fine. It goes up to 200hz btw.

Quote:
What did Audyssey set your Crossovers to? It's not a good idea to change your crossovers to a lower value than what was originally set by the Auto Setup because it will mess up the calibration. You can increase it though.

Or just ignore what I said and read Batpig's guide.

Audyssey set the crossovers too high for my speakers. All of my fronts are 60hz and Audyssey set them to 120hz, the same as my rears, which are 80hz speakers. Audyssey is useful to get the distances and measurements though. Spot-on there, but the crossovers seemed too out of whack. I've also read that this is quite normal from other users online.
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post #384 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Why would I set the LFE on the receiver to 120hz?

By specification, the LFE channel in 5.1/7.1 multichannel content goes up to 120Hz. If you leave the LPF in the receiver at the default 80Hz there is the possibility that you will roll off some LFE content between 80-120Hz. However, there is probably so little LFE content between 80-120 that it's not a very big deal.... that being said, the 120Hz setting is corrected as recommended personally by the founder of Audyssey (and codified in the Audyssey Setup Guide) just to ensure that you are getting the full LFE channel.

Again, as noted above the LFE LPF is NOT a crossover and does not affect the bass management of the speakers themselves.

You DO want to have the crossover knob on the sub itself either defeated (if possible) or turned all the way up (if there is no bypass setting) so that the filter in the sub is not "overlapping" with the digital bass management in the receiver.


Quote:


Audyssey set the crossovers too high for my speakers.

the thing to realize is that speaker specs are often "generous", whereas Audyssey is measuring the actual low-end of response of your speakers in your room. Room acoustics can dramatically affect the freq. response of your speakers. For example, if your front speakers are relatively small satellite or bookshelf speakers and are not very close to the wall it would explain why the measured low-end is a little higher than the specs.

What are your speakers?

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post #385 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 03:12 PM
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I ordered a Denon AVR-1610 for a home theater system I'm putting together. Can someone please let me know how much space I need around it. I need to buy a TV stand for the reciever, PS3, & DVR cable box, but don't want to run into heat issues by boxing it in too much. I may go to Ikea if I don't find something closer for a reasonable price.
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post #386 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

By specification, the LFE channel in 5.1/7.1 multichannel content goes up to 120Hz. If you leave the LPF in the receiver at the default 80Hz there is the possibility that you will roll off some LFE content between 80-120Hz. However, there is probably so little LFE content between 80-120 that it's not a very big deal.... that being said, the 120Hz setting is corrected as recommended personally by the founder of Audyssey (and codified in the Audyssey Setup Guide) just to ensure that you are getting the full LFE channel.

Again, as noted above the LFE LPF is NOT a crossover and does not affect the bass management of the speakers themselves.

I set the LPF to 120hz. Not sure I noticed much of a difference, but it's at 120hz. Thanks.

Quote:


You DO want to have the crossover knob on the sub itself either defeated (if possible) or turned all the way up (if there is no bypass setting) so that the filter in the sub is not "overlapping" with the digital bass management in the receiver.

My sub doesn't have a shut off for the crossover, so I just turned it all the way up.

Having the crossover all the way up and the volume at about halfway, the Audyssey crossover put it at +5db, at which point the sub seemed to take over everything. But running the setup again with the sub volume turned up yielded more accurate results. I then turned the sub volume down and it sounded much better and blended better with the speakers.

Quote:


the thing to realize is that speaker specs are often "generous", whereas Audyssey is measuring the actual low-end of response of your speakers in your room. Room acoustics can dramatically affect the freq. response of your speakers. For example, if your front speakers are relatively small satellite or bookshelf speakers and are not very close to the wall it would explain why the measured low-end is a little higher than the specs.

What are your speakers?

My fronts are Polk T15's. My center is tSc RC1. And my surrounds are tSc A5-PR. The T15's are measured at 60hz, as is the RC1. The A5's are specified to be 80hz. The strange thing is that during the last setup, it set the crossover for the T15's to 120hz and the A5's at 110hz. Now this just doesn't seem quite right since I know for a fact that the T15's have much better bass response than the A5's. It's not like it's off 10-20hz compared to the speakers specs, it's double! I'll admit though, this last setup sounded pretty damn good.
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post #387 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you sure about that? The Polk T15 is a small bookshelf speaker with a single 5.25" woofer whereas the tSc A5's look like they are a larger MTM design with dual 5.25" woofers.

Anyway, manufacturer specs are quite misleading. I would be willing to bet that the tSc specs are more accurate than the Polk specs, and the tSc's actually have similar or better bass response. Frankly, I would be a bit shocked if those Polk T15's come anywhere close to 60Hz with much authority. That figure is the "overall" freq. response figure, which means you have no idea how much they are rolling off by the time they are putting out 60Hz. Polk quotes the "-3db" point at 65Hz, which means they are probably rolling off around 100Hz or so...

Again, the Audyssey setup is measuring in your room -- if the surrounds are wall mounted (and thus getting bass reinforcement from the wall) whereas the fronts are free-standing (e.g. on a console table or something) that would explain the difference.

If you want you can manually lower the crossovers to 100Hz, but I wouldn't go much lower as the speakers are obviously not putting out as much bass as you think when actually measured in room. It's important to remember that the crossover also has a "slope", so they will be playing a decent amount of output for the next octave down below the crossover point. If the crossover is 80Hz the speakers are being asked to produce output down to 60Hz and below.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you aren't using all three tSc speakers across the front and instead using the Polks as surrounds? Seems like you'd rather have the front three "voice matched" with the different speakers as surrounds.

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post #388 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Are you sure about that? The Polk T15 is a small bookshelf speaker with a single 5.25" woofer whereas the tSc A5's look like they are a larger MTM design with dual 5.25" woofers.

Anyway, manufacturer specs are quite misleading. I would be willing to bet that the tSc specs are more accurate than the Polk specs, and the tSc's actually have similar or better bass response. Frankly, I would be a bit shocked if those Polk T15's come anywhere close to 60Hz with much authority. That figure is the "overall" freq. response figure, which means you have no idea how much they are rolling off by the time they are putting out 60Hz. Polk quotes the "-3db" point at 65Hz, which means they are probably rolling off around 100Hz or so...

Again, the Audyssey setup is measuring in your room -- if the surrounds are wall mounted (and thus getting bass reinforcement from the wall) whereas the fronts are free-standing (e.g. on a console table or something) that would explain the difference.

If you want you can manually lower the crossovers to 100Hz, but I wouldn't go much lower as the speakers are obviously not putting out as much bass as you think when actually measured in room. It's important to remember that the crossover also has a "slope", so they will be playing a decent amount of output for the next octave down below the crossover point. If the crossover is 80Hz the speakers are being asked to produce output down to 60Hz and below.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you aren't using all three tSc speakers across the front and instead using the Polks as surrounds? Seems like you'd rather have the front three "voice matched" with the different speakers as surrounds.

I've played the T15's without a sub and they put out decent bass and sound very clear and dynamic. They had much better bass than the A5's, which is why I put them up front. The A5's are three-way with two 5.25 woofers and a 3/4 tweeter.So you think I should use the A5's as fronts and the T15's as rears? I may just get two more RC1's and use them as the fronts and use the T15's a rears.

The T15's are on speaker stands that happen to be shorter than the A5's, slightly below ear level, and certainly much shorter than the RC1, which is above the television. Could that have anything to do with the crossovers being that high?

Quote:


It's important to remember that the crossover also has a "slope", so they will be playing a decent amount of output for the next octave down below the crossover point. If the crossover is 80Hz the speakers are being asked to produce output down to 60Hz and below.

I didn't know that. So the T15's being set at 120hz means that they'll still produce down to 100hz?
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post #389 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 06:06 PM
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I ordered a Denon AVR-1610 for a home theater system I'm putting together. Can someone please let me know how much space I need around it. I need to buy a TV stand for the reciever, PS3, & DVR cable box, but don't want to run into heat issues by boxing it in too much. I may go to Ikea if I don't find something closer for a reasonable price.

I have had my 1610 for a few weeks and it does not run Hot (not like Pioneer). I have about 2 inchs above it (to the next shelf). I have read some other people have less space above it. One of the may reasons I picked a Denon.

Robert from Detroit
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post #390 of 5202 Old 08-10-2009, 07:46 PM
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I have a Denon 590 hooked up to an older Hdtv with a HDMI to DVI cable. When I hook up a new dvd player with HDMI to the Denon the video passes thru to the tv just fine but the Denon will not play the audio. Does the HDMI to DVI connection between the Denon and the tv prevent the Denon from decoding the HDMI audio from the DVD player?
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Denon Avr1610 5 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver With 1080p Hdmi Connectivity , Denon Avr590 5 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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