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669K views 5K replies 580 participants last post by  Amjsim 
#1 ·
I had questions and someone sugested I start this thread, I hope I dont step on any toes, I'm not a Moderator or Special member or anything. I'm researching my new reciever to get and am very intereseted in the 4310, mainly because of the new stuff like ABT. I just wish I could get it for the 3808's price. I would like to go with the 4310 AVR and the new denon 1610 blu-ray, but I was wondering if it would be just as good to go with the 3808 AVR and Denon 2010 Blu-ray?, That way I could get the ABT video and have good sound as well. Does anyone know if going this route would still look and sound as good as if going the 4310/1610 route? I mean have the 2010 ABT do the video procesing and the 3808 do the sound. thanks

Rob
 
#4,131 ·
Nah - not that hard. Just common sense, really



Although, I generally would not recommend that anyone open up their electronics, if they are not familiar with doing such work. Outside of the potential to damage the unit - there is a bigger risk... doing harm to yourself.


Again, anyone that has any background with this, will know. If you don't, then experimenting is not advised.
 
#4,133 ·
Hey guys,


I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but my one year old 4310 ci has developed the dreaded NIC problem. All the symptoms align with what's been discussed here. I've taken the unit in to a Denon repair center here in the SF bay area. I just got it back today and I'm not impressed. They had it for 4 weeks and the only thing they did was to perform a factory reset. I repeatedly told them about the network problem and they did not seem to care about what I had to say. So the exact same problem is still there.


What do you think is my best option here? Should I bother calling Denon customer service? Will they simply just tell me to ship it to their service center on the east coast and I'm out another 5-6 weeks without a receiver? If that's the case I think I'm done with trying to get warranty service and will simply purchase the card and replace it myself.


What's the best place to purchase the card right now?


Thanks for any advice.

 
#4,134 ·
I just ordered my card tonight from PacParts, Inc. They are in stock.



Mfg Part No Description Price QTY Total

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DENON 8R1891001100D DM860 SUB ASSY $138.10 1 $138.10 *** Warranty period is 90 days.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub Total: $138.10

Sales Tax: $0.00


Shipping Charges: $11.50

---------------------------

TOTAL: $149.60
 
#4,135 ·
Sadly... you probably made a good choice.


I am absolutely convinced that I will not be upgrading to any Denon product - ever! The stories from folks here trying to get their AVR's fixed are just pathetic. Denon Execs should be ashamed. I am quite certain, however, that they are NOT.


Sorry that you had to drop another $150 on a product that should have NEVER had this problem in the first place. Hopefully, once repaired, it will give you many years of trouble-free performance.


I would have made the exact same decision that you did. The repair turn around time is unacceptable and having to take it back again, because they did not even fix the problem is insane. They should all be fired!
 
#4,136 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by wzhaoca /forum/post/20356184


Hey guys,


I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but my one year old 4310 ci has developed the dreaded NIC problem. All the symptoms align with what's been discussed here. I've taken the unit in to a Denon repair center here in the SF bay area. I just got it back today and I'm not impressed. They had it for 4 weeks and the only thing they did was to perform a factory reset. I repeatedly told them about the network problem and they did not seem to care about what I had to say. So the exact same problem is still there.


What do you think is my best option here? Should I bother calling Denon customer service? Will they simply just tell me to ship it to their service center on the east coast and I'm out another 5-6 weeks without a receiver? If that's the case I think I'm done with trying to get warranty service and will simply purchase the card and replace it myself.


What's the best place to purchase the card right now?


Thanks for any advice.


I'd call Denon. Apparently the cards are in stock so only a couple weeks turn around for repair would be my guess.


I am SOOOOO pleased with my unit and IF the NIC card goes out, I will survive a 2 week hiatus. I would be really ticked paying 4X the one time shipping cost to repair something still under warranty. But that's just me. But then again, I'm frugal. I got such a great deal on it anyway, I can't complain. Now had i paid full retail, my attitude might be different.
 
#4,137 ·
I love my 4310, too. That said, I find what people are going through, with the failure of the network card and Denon's (apparent) lack of sense of urgency around repairs, to be completely unacceptable. Let alone, that they are not even able to repair the problem, after 3+ weeks in their repair facility.... for a well known issue. Really?


Calling Denon will result most likely in hearing a bunch of "Customer Service-speak" BS... "We're sorry to hear that your experience is poor. At Denon, we strive to make sure that every customer who has a problem, is serviced and supported with the utmost expediency and quality of repair. Unfortunately, you seem to have experienced something out of the normal - for that we apologize. However, we will try our best to solve your problem. Yadda-Yadda-Yadda."


Four friggin weeks later, you will get your AVR back - possibly even repaired.


That is unacceptable, regardless of the discount from MSRP that anyone pays.
 
#4,138 ·
Can't get parts for brand new cars immediately either.
But given a few months, parts are readily available.


However, with the parts in stock, repairs are quick and timely. And why would anyone CALL? The 2x I sent my 789 in (bought not working floor model from Circuit City 2 days before they closed for an AMAZING price & again for a FW upgrade and the microprocessor had to be ordered) I just used the internet to get a RMA and was done with it. Also, BOTH times, the unit came back in BETTER condition than it was sent to them in, in a better box with better packing.


I know some have issues, I am having one (slightly) with LG right now. But it is to be expected as not EVERYONE has issues. The vast FEW here on the boards posting problems, are such a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the TOTAL amount of units in circulation, means the failure rate is very small indeed. Statistically speaking of course.
 
#4,139 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by wstanko /forum/post/20164625


I am also glad that you got a new and better receiver, BUTTTTTTT, I am not so sure that you should have gone through the totally absurd scenario of 3 NIC's.


I believe that after these cards began to fail, Denon should have become active. Instead of allowing one after another failing, people should have been contacted regarding the issue and offered something that says, "we know the product is bad and this is what we are going to do about it." The auto industry does recalls regularly, because they value their reputation.


My receiver is one month old and performing as I expected when purchased. Although nothing has failed, I feel cheated that it was sold to me under the guise of a leftover clearance. If it is doomed to fail, it should not have been sold for any price.


Am I the only voice with this opinion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 /forum/post/20357131


I love my 4310, too. That said, I find what people are going through, with the failure of the network card and Denon's (apparent) lack of sense of urgency around repairs, to be completely unacceptable. Let alone, that they are not even able to repair the problem, after 3+ weeks in their repair facility.... for a well known issue. Really?


Calling Denon will result most likely in hearing a bunch of "Customer Service-speak" BS... "We're sorry to hear that your experience is poor. At Denon, we strive to make sure that every customer who has a problem, is serviced and supported with the utmost expediency and quality of repair. Unfortunately, you seem to have experienced something out of the normal - for that we apologize. However, we will try our best to solve your problem. Yadda-Yadda-Yadda."


Four friggin weeks later, you will get your AVR back - possibly even repaired.


That is unacceptable, regardless of the discount from MSRP that anyone pays.

When I first stated the above, no one agreed with me and I was shouted down as the lunatic with unreal expectations (wanting a product that works without frequent trips to the repair shop at a reasonable price). My first Denon lasted 10+ years and is working away in the garage. My second, lasted without incident for 5 years and is in service for probably another decade at my niece's. That is the reliability I expected when the 4310 was purchased.


If it fails, I consider it to be Denon's fault, for a recall of some sort is certainly in order. Example: I bought a Toshiba DLP set in 2005 and as bad luck would happen, the $250 bulbs were defective. When they started blowing after only 6 months, Toshiba notified customers of the problem and shipped replacements.


Back to Denon, what have they done? Some may think a lot, but I believe they have done very little. This unit is the best AVR I ever owned, but it is not without competition in the world of electronics.


I had ordered a new NIC, but cancelled. I decided that doing a repair is not my responsibility. If my goes, don't even know if I'll send it away.... parting is not always pretty.
 
#4,140 ·

Quote:
The auto industry does recalls regularly, because they value their reputation.

HAHAHA! They only do so because the gubberment makes them recall dangerous cars or are about to make them recall. They certainly DO NOT do it out of the kindness of their hearts as that would cost them money. The Ford Pinto comes quickly to mind.

Quote:
Example: I bought a Toshiba DLP set in 2005 and as bad luck would happen, the $250 bulbs were defective. When they started blowing after only 6 months, Toshiba notified customers of the problem and shipped replacements.

Also well versed on this incident as I have a Toshiba DLP (which I LUV bTW
) and again, it wasn't because of the goodness in thier hearts this happened, they were FORCED to by the CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT that also exposed a defective light tunnel in their light engines that required a complete replacement.


Using your "examples" above, I still feel you were not sold a defective unit under the guise of anything other than it being a fine, top of the line piece of electronics. The NIC card IS NOT 'destined' to fail as it is highly possible (and probable) that there were indeed a bad batch of electronics used to compromise the NIC, but likely caught and substituted with quality parts. There may be no way at this stage of the game to determine which models these defective cards were installed in based on serial # (playing devils advocate here
). I would hope however that Denon is not so lax in their record keeping that is the case tho.


Personally, I have waaaaaay too many other things I need to worry & fret about than IF & WHEN my NIC card MIGHT stop functioning as designed and prefer to simply enjoy, as you put it:
Quote:
the best AVR I ever owned
 
#4,141 ·
Again, it's pretty sad that manufacturers operate this way. They did not always do that. Forced recalls and gov't & lawsuits aside, it should not happen in the first place. The quality of many (most/all) things has gone downhill, over the last 2 decades +/-.


"Good Enough" and "Cheaper" has become our standard.


There are still some companies out there who build with excellent quality and reliability - even though at premium price points. I have come to learn (again, sadly) that you almost always get what you pay for. If paying a premium for quality and reliability is the cost for that deliverable, I'll always go that route.


My Pioneer Elite 141 display is an excellent example of that philosophy. I know, someone is bound to say. "Maybe that's why Pioneer went out of the business." And, while that is partially true, it is largely because, as consumers, many of us are willing to settle for "good enough" - because we shop price vs. value. Southwest Airlines is the perfect example. We'll herd onto planes like cattle, to save $50. Really?


In any event, I am done with Denon. I love my 4310, but soon the upgrade bug will bite and I will relegate it to another owner and move on. Realizing fully that I will have to spend perhaps 2X-3X the cost, to upgrade - in quality and reliability and features. But, then again... that's why it is called "upgrading".
 
#4,142 ·
Problem is, (and before we lose track, I DO agree with you believe it or not
) everything today is OUTSOURCED to other countries. Still amazes me how it is so cheap to have things made abroad, and can be shipped here on a slow, fuel guzzling boat, then be transported to the "manufactuerer" then shipped out AGAIN to dealers, than it is to just be made here, putting people to work, more environmentally responsible, and having quality products. Just amazing. Competition is one thing, but this is beyond competition.
 
#4,143 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by wzhaoca /forum/post/20356184


Hey guys,


I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but my one year old 4310 ci has developed the dreaded NIC problem. All the symptoms align with what's been discussed here. I've taken the unit in to a Denon repair center here in the SF bay area. I just got it back today and I'm not impressed. They had it for 4 weeks and the only thing they did was to perform a factory reset. I repeatedly told them about the network problem and they did not seem to care about what I had to say. So the exact same problem is still there.


What do you think is my best option here? Should I bother calling Denon customer service? Will they simply just tell me to ship it to their service center on the east coast and I'm out another 5-6 weeks without a receiver? If that's the case I think I'm done with trying to get warranty service and will simply purchase the card and replace it myself.


What's the best place to purchase the card right now?


Thanks for any advice.


Denon will give you a RMA number and you could then take it to the Authorized Denon Repair Center in Mountain View. This was the option they gave me at least, but I live over 100 miles away so I purchased the NIC from pacparts last October.
 
#4,144 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 /forum/post/20357812


.....

In any event, I am done with Denon. I love my 4310, but soon the upgrade bug will bite and I will relegate it to another owner and move on. Realizing fully that I will have to spend perhaps 2X-3X the cost, to upgrade - in quality and reliability and features. But, then again... that's why it is called "upgrading".

+1, I too will get the upgrade bug soon and will repurpose the 4310 as I did with the 3805 and then shop for something that has better quality and customer support. I know that it exsists as I have experienced it with companies like SVS, Emotiva, Definitive Technology. I recently had a Logitec Dinovo wireless keyboard (not cheap at $200) that wouldn't charge so I contacted Logitec via email regarding the matter and end story is they sent me a brand new keyboard and charger despite the fact that I had bought the item over 2 years prior and didn't have a invoice. That is how customer service should work
.
 
#4,145 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 /forum/post/20356946


Sadly... you probably made a good choice.


I am absolutely convinced that I will not be upgrading to any Denon product - ever! The stories from folks here trying to get their AVR's fixed are just pathetic. Denon Execs should be ashamed. I am quite certain, however, that they are NOT.


Sorry that you had to drop another $150 on a product that should have NEVER had this problem in the first place. Hopefully, once repaired, it will give you many years of trouble-free performance.


I would have made the exact same decision that you did. The repair turn around time is unacceptable and having to take it back again, because they did not even fix the problem is insane. They should all be fired!

I build PC's in one of my other expensive hobbies so I think I can do the repair myself. I got my 4310 on a very good BB clearance deal as a lot of us have here. By doing this myself my warranty will most likely be voided so I do not advocate anyone doing this network card fix themselves without excepting the risk.


I have already discussed this with BB Greek Squad and they said to bring in the card and the 4310 and they would do the fix which might not void the warranty. I suggested this to them and they thought it was a unique idea.


It would cost me nothing since I purchased for $60.00 an extended 4 year warranty just for this issue. If I do this myself then I'm out all around. I never puchase these warranties and wish I had not now as my card failed in 2 1/2 months and I'd rather do the work myself.
 
#4,146 ·
Yea.. I never get the EW's. They are just pure profit for the seller. And, in almost every case, if something fails, it is almost always within the warranty period.


If you do a careful job, no one will know and "voiding warranty" won't be a concern.
 
#4,147 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat /forum/post/20358171


+1, I too will get the upgrade bug soon and will repurpose the 4310 as I did with the 3805 and then shop for something that has better quality and customer support. I know that it exsists as I have experienced it with companies like SVS, Emotiva, Definitive Technology. I recently had a Logitec Dinovo wireless keyboard (not cheap at $200) that wouldn't charge so I contacted Logitec via email regarding the matter and end story is they sent me a brand new keyboard and charger despite the fact that I had bought the item over 2 years prior and didn't have a invoice. That is how customer service should work
.

As I have stated in this forum I really like the sound of the Denon so much I just sold my Onkyo 885 preamp. i usually hold onto what I buy for a while so I hope the upgrade bug does not bite me soon.


I just want the 4310 to last until the Denon 4311's go on clearance, I'm a bargain hunter. I have no need for the amps as I have 4 sitting around. The 4311 was designed for those wanting this kind of setup.


I actually had a 4311 and returned it as overkill for my den setup. I had no idea that I would like the Denon sound enough to get rid of my Onkyo which I was very statisfied with.


I'm still toying with getting the Onkyo 5508 but I want to know the sound quality. I may still sell the 4310 after I get it fixed. People say they hate the look and design of the Onkyo, I like the look especially when racked.
 
#4,148 ·
And this is where our differences lie. The ONLY thing worth 'upgrading' to, in my opinion, would be to 3D/1.4 HDMI, of which I have no interest. I am not interested in, nor do I desire more than one sub. The 4310ci has every feature I could want, with the exception of Pandora instead of that crap Rhapsody and Napster, neither of which I am willing to pay for. But no problem there as I have Pandora on my streaming device anyway hence being a non-issue.


I could upgrade to Audyssey XT 32, but I'm good with Audyssey XT. It puts a smile on my face everytime I listen to the 4310.



While I agree getting a new keyboard 2 years after the fact and with no receipt is nice, it is NOT the norm for Logitech. They simply could not stay in business doing things like that on a regular basis. Simple matter of business 101. Don't get me wrong, it does happen, but rarely. Example: Our washing machine went out (a stupid $25 bearing that cost over $300 to replace as it is/was an intregal part of the tub housing) a couple of months ago. Went to buy a new one, not really being able to afford it since I am out of work, and fortunately came across a $1000 washer being sold due to some scratches and dents, for $300! The catch was I had to pay for a 5YEAR extended warranty. Total cost w/tax was under $550! I brought it home and imediately tried it out (clothes piling up) and the damn thing would walk all over the laundry room. So I called for service. Long story short and 5 repair visits later, at a cost of OVER $1000 to the warranty company, and I got what equates to a brand spanking new, perfect machine! But this isn't the norm. If it were, things would cost ALOT more than they do already.
 
#4,149 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat /forum/post/20358073


Denon will give you a RMA number and you could then take it to the Authorized Denon Repair Center in Mountain View. This was the option they gave me at least, but I live over 100 miles away so I purchased the NIC from pacparts last October.

Thanks for the tip. That's what I'm afraid they would do too. I'd hate to have to drive another hour to drop it off and be without it for weeks again. And that's not to guarantee they'll fix it this time.

I'll call them and find out what they will do.
 
#4,150 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 /forum/post/20358351


And this is where our differences lie. The ONLY thing worth 'upgrading' to, in my opinion, would be to 3D/1.4 HDMI, of which I have no interest. I am not interested in, nor do I desire more than one sub. The 4310ci has every feature I could want, with the exception of Pandora instead of that crap Rhapsody and Napster, neither of which I am willing to pay for. But no problem there as I have Pandora on my streaming device anyway hence being a non-issue.


I could upgrade to Audyssey XT 32, but I'm good with Audyssey XT. It puts a smile on my face everytime I listen to the 4310.

Agreed... partially



For me and this is my personal opinion only: 3D in its current technological state, requiring glasses for viewing - is, from a quality perspective, horrible. Since that will be the state of 3D technology for the foreseeable future, I have ZERO interest in it. So, that "feature" is a who-cares.


From an upgrade perspective, however, dual subs would be a desired future state, since that would significantly improve my audio experience (and I have a great SW already - two would be amazing).


So, XT32 fit's that bill nicely. And, with XT32 is the ability to go further and get PRO



All that said, I will go with separate components for my next upgrade. A quality pre-processor, such as an Anthem Statement D2V,or something in that class, will run the front end of my audio/video. The new Marantz that was jsut reviewed in both Stereophile and Home Theater would be a nice processor. It doesn't have XT32 however, so that's a show stopper. And, a multichannel amplifier, such as the Parasound A51/A2, will drive the speakers.


As I said, that will be a significant cost premium, over my 4310... or even a top of the line Denon. But, I am done with Denon!


Like you, I could care less about the little "features"... Pandora, Rhapsody, Napster, etc. I don't even want the cheesy height/width speaker configuration. It sounds like ****. Possibly, 7.x with rears, but I had that and went back to 5.x sound.


Just give me the best possible sound, the rest is noise
 
#4,151 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 /forum/post/20358764


... And, with XT32 is the ability to go further and get PRO..

Your 4310 is Audyssey Pro-ready already. Man, that has a nice ring to it.
 
#4,152 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind /forum/post/20358835


Your 4310 is Audyssey Pro-ready already. Man, that has a nice ring to it.

Yes, I was going to say that but you beat me to the punch SoM...



As for 2 subs, I also have one helluva nice DIY sub that if commercial would easily exceed the $1200+ mark. And I like alot of STRONG bass but anymore than what I have (again, to me) would be nothing but overkill.


To me, the SQ of the 4310 really would be hard to improve upon unless, as was stated, one was to go substantially higher in cost. But even then, there is what is known as diminishing return on ones investment. Is it wrong to spend a $3000 premium to get a second sub out jack and one level higher of Audyssey? Maybe, but I for one won't fault anyone for it as it isn't my money or my ears. But for me the incremental increase in SQ just doesn't justify the cost.


I just sold my old speakers on the bay. I looked at the purchasers past feedback and items bought and one just floored me. Guy bought a $100 ToSlink cable. The description stated, and I quote, "electrical interference is virtually eliminated"!


Amazing the gulliblness of people in this hobby. Fiber Optics (ToSlink cable)is impervious to electrical interference as is! I presume it was purchased for the purpose of testing only as he also bought an $8 ToSlink from another seller at the same time. Now the $100 cable did have nice connectors at either end, but beyond that, there will not, strike that, CANNOT have any better (or worse) SQ between the 2. It just is not possible with the single exception of there being a difference because one WANTS to hear a 'difference'.


All said and done, I have heard 10,000 dollar amps that sound NOT as good as the 4310, and the best improvement one can make once at the 4310 level and above, would be speakers. Spend the money on speakers before the amp in my opinion. The old addage is true, spend 3x on speakers what you would on an amp. Get some MartinLogan CLX ART if you REALLY want the best sound in my opinion. It just doesn't get any better than that!
That would be the smart choice to put your money into in my opinion, if you are determined to spend a premium (and are made right here in the good ol' US of A!
).
 
#4,153 ·
Unfortunately, the ROI without XT32 and 2 SW's isn't there.


Performance gains from the 4310 with a single SW will only be marginally better.


Now, if Denon would give us 4310 owners an upgrade path to XT32... that would be great. I don't know how we would handle the physical connection for the 2nd SW, though.
 
#4,154 ·
I so love hearing folks claim things like an uber-cost ToSlink cable making their system sound so much more open and clear and transparent and yadda-yadda. These are the same people that also pay hundreds (thousands?) of dollars for power cords, too
I am right there with you on the snake oil bandwagon!


Dual SW's are not implemented so much for sound volume, as they are for sound improvement. It's not about improving quality - it's about improving the low frequency performance. I'm satisfied with my sound, but I know I could improve it with another SW in my room.


I don't disagree that the Denon sound is very nice. I owned 2 prior AVR/Receivers before my 4310. It is hard to compete with Denon at or above its price point, from a SQ perspective.


Can it be improved upon? Sure. will that be more costly? Sure. That's no disrespect to the audio performance of the 4310.


As for speakers.. well, that is a huge can of worms. I think your 3X estimate is pretty darn close. I'm currently looking at Focal Chorus 826W, along with Usher Be-20/10. I really want something close to the form factor of my SM450's, since I want to do identical 5/7 channel configuration. Still a lot of auditioning to do... but, that is fun!!!
 
#4,155 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by wstanko /forum/post/20357400


This unit is the best AVR I ever owned, but it is not without competition in the world of electronics.

Example: My old Denon 2807 locked in on only 2 FM stations in the Pittsburgh area. Both were the "oldies genre" and this was using the dipole antenna on the outside of the house (via coaxial cable to the AVR).


Really wanting HD Radio was one of the major reasons for the upgrade to the 4310ci. After making the same antenna connection, Pow! it locked in on over 15 new radio stations that were HD, and many more just "plain old FM." To maximize the quality of this digital signal and prevent drop-off, I installed a Wingard Omni directional FM antenna. Now I have jazz, rock, AC, classical, and of course, oldies.


This HD Radio locks in slowly, but when it does you can actually hear that the signal is located. The sound quality gets that much better. HD Radio says, "as good as a CD." All stations are not equal, but the NPR Jazz HD 1 & 2 here in Pittsburgh are astonishing in quality. Played as background music, adding Dynamic Equalization, Easter company raised eyebrows when told that this was just the radio!
 
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