Denon AVR-4310CI Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 5301 Old 08-24-2009, 01:57 PM
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There is a setting in the Denon that controls how the sound is handled via HDMI. When set to "amp," the Denon's capabilities control, and you should get the whole magilla. When set to TV, the TV tells the source that it can only handle a stereo signal, so that's what the source sends. At least that's the way my 989 works.
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post #632 of 5301 Old 08-24-2009, 02:23 PM
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Hi, what speakers should i buy for connect to denon 4310 to use for dsx height mode.Currently i have a set of 5.1 infinity kappa.

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post #633 of 5301 Old 08-24-2009, 02:26 PM
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keep it in the family -- the principle of trying to "timbre match" your speakers as much as possible is just as true for "wides" or "heights" as it is for surrounds.

Here is what Chris K. (founder of Audyssey) has said on DSX speaker choice:

Quote:


The recommendation for the type of Wide and Height speakers to use is no different for DSX than it is for 5.1 surround: the more similar the speakers the better the soundstage. The reason for this is that matching the timbre that we receive at each ear greatly improves our perception of stereo imaging. Of course, there are practical limitations on the speaker size particularly when adding more speakers in a home listening room. So, a good place to start would be with speakers from the same "family" as your front three. Running MultEQ first will also help bring the response of each speaker closer to the others (and the desired target).

Placement for the wides and heights is shown here:
http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dsx.html

The Heights should be placed as high as possible in the room, while the Wides should ideally have their tweeters at ear height just like the three front speakers.


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post #634 of 5301 Old 08-24-2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

There is a setting in the Denon that controls how the sound is handled via HDMI. When set to "amp," the Denon's capabilities control, and you should get the whole magilla. When set to TV, the TV tells the source that it can only handle a stereo signal, so that's what the source sends. At least that's the way my 989 works.

Yeah the default is "amp" and I have not changed it - still doesn't like the DVI in the chain

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post #635 of 5301 Old 08-24-2009, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyW318 View Post

Gumbobtr,

Regarding the Internet Radio dropouts, I tried the Microprocessor Reset (holding and while powering on) and it did NOT remedy the situation for me.

Did you do a factory reset or just the Microprocessor reset?

I finally had some time today to try the Microprocessor reset and re-set-up everything. Unfortunately I had the same results of Gumbobtr and it didn't fix the issue for me.
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post #636 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

keep it in the family -- the principle of trying to "timbre match" your speakers as much as possible is just as true for "wides" or "heights" as it is for surrounds.

Here is what Chris K. (founder of Audyssey) has said on DSX speaker choice:

Batpig. I have a pair of B&W 683s and matching HTM1 for center in a 7.1 setup. I have considered buying a pair of 685s (bookshelfs) to put in front as high speakers, but that would make my setup a 9.1. (2 front, two highs, two sides, 2 back and one center). Can the 4310 handle this type of setup? Would I really notice that much of a difference?
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post #637 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 07:27 AM
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One more question, first i don't know if its the right thread pu this, but here it goes. What products should i look to use the second zone in another room,by converting the video composite and audio to my lan and receiving in other tv.

Thanks,

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post #638 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 10:17 AM
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are you talking about WIRELESS audio/video transmission to Zone 2?

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post #639 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback View Post

Batpig. I have a pair of B&W 683s and matching HTM1 for center in a 7.1 setup. I have considered buying a pair of 685s (bookshelfs) to put in front as high speakers, but that would make my setup a 9.1. (2 front, two highs, two sides, 2 back and one center). Can the 4310 handle this type of setup? Would I really notice that much of a difference?

The 4310CI is a 7.1 receiver. It only has seven channels of processing and seven amps. You can do a "pseudo" 9.1 with the Surr. A+B (e.g. four speakers playing the two surround channels) but it will really be a "5.1+height" setup with the surrounds being duplicated.

So, yes, because of the Surr. A+B option you can use nine total speakers, but there will only be seven unique channels of processing and the four surrounds will be powered by two amps and only play two discrete channels.

If you want a "true" 9.1 setup, the upcoming Denon 4810CI will do it, as will the next high end Onkyo models (1007 and 3007 I believe).

On a side note, if you are going to add extra speakers and if you have the spacing for it, adding "Wide" speakers will make a much bigger difference than adding "Height" speakers. That's the recommended first addition by Audyssey, and the few user reviews of "front wide" setups have been very positive. User "joerod" has tried both height and wide and agrees that the "5.1+wide" setup sounds the best.

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post #640 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The 4310CI is a 7.1 receiver. It only has seven channels of processing and seven amps. You can do a "pseudo" 9.1 with the Surr. A+B (e.g. four speakers playing the two surround channels) but it will really be a "5.1+height" setup with the surrounds being duplicated.

So, yes, because of the Surr. A+B option you can use nine total speakers, but there will only be seven unique channels of processing and the four surrounds will be powered by two amps and only play two discrete channels.

If you want a "true" 9.1 setup, the upcoming Denon 4810CI will do it, as will the next high end Onkyo models (1007 and 3007 I believe).

On a side note, if you are going to add extra speakers and if you have the spacing for it, adding "Wide" speakers will make a much bigger difference than adding "Height" speakers. That's the recommended first addition by Audyssey, and the few user reviews of "front wide" setups have been very positive. User "joerod" has tried both height and wide and agrees that the "5.1+wide" setup sounds the best.

I had considered that, but I am limited by room size. I have about 2 feet to the left and right of my screen, which is now being consumed by my 683s L/R. If I added wide speakers, I am not sure it would really help with widening my sound stage. I also dont think I have the room, unless I put some bookshelfs almost right behind the floorstanding speakers.

One thing I did try last night was using the wide with my current setup. My sides are really at about 45-60 degrees to my optimal seating position. When I tried out the wide setting, I did like it.

I I really wanted to try out the wide again, would I need to run audyssey again with the DSX wide enabled? When I ran audyssey originally it was set at standard (normal amp).
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post #641 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

are you talking about WIRELESS audio/video transmission to Zone 2?

i tried wireless with video sender oneforall and the results wasn't goods.
So i'd like a wired solution over my local lan.

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post #642 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 01:15 PM
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I just ran the AIX sampler disc calibration and I can confirm that my 4310ci has the same bug with 7.1 DTS HD MA audio as was previously mentioned. It seems to be able to be worked around by setting the player (Oppo BDP-83) to output LPCM. I don't think I have many 7.1 Blu-rays, and there aren't many out there to begin with, so it's not a huge problem.

However, Denon does need to fix this with a firmware update of some sort. Does anyone know if Denon is aware of the issue and if they are working on it?

Edited to add:

I checked all my Blu-rays and I have ZERO discs with 7.1 tracks.
Activating the back surround on the Denon is another workaround, but then I couldn't use Audyssey without it telling me to redo the setup.
Has anyone confirmed that 5.1 DTS MS HD tracks are being decoded correctly?
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post #643 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAD Paradigm View Post

I checked all my Blu-rays and I have ZERO discs with 7.1 tracks.

Try Pan's Labyrinth.

I agree, Denon needs to get this worked out. There was some issue with New Line 7.1 DTS-MA with the 3808CI as well.
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post #644 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 06:49 PM
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I have had the 4310ci for almost 3 months and I have been very pleased with the benefits the receiver offers in reference to DSX wide. I have not tried the DSX height as of yet and probably will not until the 4810 comes out and can do all at once. I have a large room (4K cubic ft) and recently upgraded my speakers to the Def Tech Mythos series with the STS (FL/FR), the Mythos Ten as the center and 4 GemXL's serving as the surrounds and wides all of which are wall mounted with the surrounds being flat against wall and the wides on an articulating mount pointing toward the main listening position. On Friday I finally finished my upgrade with the Def Tech Reference subwoofer rounding out the lineup.

I communicated with Chris from Audyssey several times while upgrading and he recommended to stay as true to the 60 degree as possible and to have them in line with the L/R/C speakers which I have done. I can only tell you I will never sacrifice a speaker to the rear of my listening position again- I am a huge fan of the DSX Wide settings, HUGE. I have enjoyed watching movie after movie since upgrading the new speakers and can hear nuances with more encompassing sound with the engagement of the wides over any other speaker setting I have used. I use to hate the rears because they felt gimmicky and tended to be too overpowering at times, not so with the Wides engaged.

I don't mean to sound overly rosey here but I really think a lot of people with the right setup and fine-tuning would find great benefit in the use of DSX-wide, I know I did.

Thanks to all you guys who have provided awesome knowledge and expertise- I have really appreciated it to say the least. This was my 2cents.
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post #645 of 5301 Old 08-25-2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elite-home View Post

I have had the 4310ci for almost 3 months and I have been very pleased with the benefits the receiver offers in reference to DSX wide. I have not tried the DSX height as of yet and probably will not until the 4810 comes out and can do all at once. I have a large room (4K cubic ft) and recently upgraded my speakers to the Def Tech Mythos series with the STS (FL/FR), the Mythos Ten as the center and 4 GemXL's serving as the surrounds and wides all of which are wall mounted with the surrounds being flat against wall and the wides on an articulating mount pointing toward the main listening position. On Friday I finally finished my upgrade with the Def Tech Reference subwoofer rounding out the lineup.

I communicated with Chris from Audyssey several times while upgrading and he recommended to stay as true to the 60 degree as possible and to have them in line with the L/R/C speakers which I have done. I can only tell you I will never sacrifice a speaker to the rear of my listening position again- I am a huge fan of the DSX Wide settings, HUGE. I have enjoyed watching movie after movie since upgrading the new speakers and can her nuances with more encompassing sound with the engagement of the wides over any other speaker setting I have used. I use to hate the rears because they felt gimmicky and tended to be too overpowering at times, not so with the Wides engaged.

I don't mean to sound overly rosey here but I really think a lot of people with the right setup and fine-tuning would find great benefit in the use of DSX-wide, I know I did.

Thanks to all you guys who have provided awesome knowledge and expertise- I have really appreciated it to say the least. This was my 2cents.

I am a beliver as well. I reconfigured my setup tonight and listened to a couple of Blu-rays and am also convinced. I do not have an ideal setup like yours but the placement of my speakers really does lend itself well to the wide format. There is much more depth coming out of fronts then before and rear/sides are much more active giving a more "in the picture" feel.
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post #646 of 5301 Old 08-26-2009, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback View Post

I am a beliver as well. I reconfigured my setup tonight and listened to a couple of Blu-rays and am also convinced. I do not have an ideal setup like yours but the placement of my speakers really does lend itself well to the wide format. There is much more depth coming out of fronts then before and rear/sides are much more active giving a more "in the picture" feel.

I upgraded from a 7.1 set with the Mordaunt Short Genie and though of course the Def Tech's are superior in every way- I was still very pleased with my original speakers. You have to listen to chapter 2 in Wall-E which Chris recommends, turn it way up and listen to the eery roll throughs he does. If you have Underworld Evolution Ch 3-4 is great also. Just FYI. I can't wait for Gladiator on Tuesday
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post #647 of 5301 Old 08-26-2009, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elite-home View Post

I upgraded from a 7.1 set with the Mordaunt Short Genie and though of course the Def Tech's are superior in every way- I was still very pleased with my original speakers. You have to listen to chapter 2 in Wall-E which Chris recommends, turn it way up and listen to the eery roll throughs he does. If you have Underworld Evolution Ch 3-4 is great also. Just FYI. I can't wait for Gladiator on Tuesday

Another great scene is in Spider Man 3, when the sand man gets, well..... turned into sand. The spinning is dizzing... I loved it.

PS. Already have a pre-order in at Amazon for Gladitor!!
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post #648 of 5301 Old 08-26-2009, 06:03 PM
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Has anyone heard about any updates regarding the issue that FilmMixer identified with the Denon AVRs decoding DTS instead of DTS-MA tracks when a 7.1 track is received by a receiver connected to a 5.1 setup?
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post #649 of 5301 Old 08-26-2009, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by EVT View Post

Has anyone heard about any updates regarding the issue that FilmMixer identified with the Denon AVRs decoding DTS instead of DTS-MA tracks when a 7.1 track is received by a receiver connected to a 5.1 setup?

I've found Denon support to be a black hole. You only hear back from them when they have questions you've already answered or they have suggestions for a different problem. If there is a fix released, it'll probably show up in a firmware update and we'll have to figure out that it was fixed.
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post #650 of 5301 Old 08-26-2009, 07:47 PM
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Here is the setup I want to have and then I will describe the holes in the system that I need help with.

Here is what I want
--------------------------------------------------
Main Zone:
(Family Room) TV attached to the Denon on HDMI monitor output 1. HTPC with bluray and HDMI audio bitstreaming attached to Denon HDMI DVD port. I have 7.1 speakers in this room.

Zone 2:
(Master Bedroom) TV attached to the Denon on HDMI monitor output 2. HTPC same as above. Same signal sent from Denon to family room and bedroom. Left and Right in wall speakers only in this room.

Zone 3:
(Pool) Just 2 speakers. Nothing else.

I want to be able to play my blurays and output audio and video to my main room in 7.1 when I want a nice movie experience. I would love to switch on zone 2 and have the bluray play in my bedroom with just left and right channel audio. I would like to play my ipod or other audio only source outside. I guess I could imagine a bluray audio source playing outside too but not often. None of this needs to happen simultaneously, i.e. I don't need to play blurays on both the bedroom and family room at the same time or play different inputs at the same time on different zones.

Here are the holes
-----------------------------------------------------

The hardware setup for each zone above is the same but I only have the 4310 powering the main zone in 7.1. I can switch on my TV in Zone 2 (bedroom) and I get video but no audio of course because I have nothing powering those speakers. Zone 3 outside has nothing powering those speaker either.

So I need something to power the Zone 2 and Zone 3 speakers but the one gotcha here is that all my audio is over HDMI. Additionally, I want Bluray HDMI audio to play in Zone 2 (and Zone 3 if possible). I know I can connect a separate receiver or amp but I think it is over analog cables. Won't this prohibit Bluray sound in my other zones because of HDCP?

I was initially under the impression that this receiver was a 7.1 AVR with 3 zones. To me that meant I can have 7.1 surround and 2 other zones. Not all playing separate sources at the same time. Once I installed it I found out quickly that if I try to setup any other zone other than my main, it looks like I lose 7.1 capabilities all together. The Denon support guy didn't seem totally sure on this.

What hardware do I need and how do I set this all up to accomplish what I want listed above. I'm having a real hard time getting answers from anyone on this so any help would be appreciated.
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post #651 of 5301 Old 08-27-2009, 12:13 PM
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I don't have that receiver, but I read the manual.

If you want to use zone 2, you'll only get 5.1 in zone 1.

Alternatively, you can use an external amplifier for zone 2 to keep 7.1 in zone 1.

You will always need an external amplifier for zone 3.
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post #652 of 5301 Old 08-27-2009, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synfinatic View Post

I don't have that receiver, but I read the manual.

If you want to use zone 2, you'll only get 5.1 in zone 1.

Alternatively, you can use an external amplifier for zone 2 to keep 7.1 in zone 1.

You will always need an external amplifier for zone 3.

But the big question I still have is how do I get my bluray audio to play in my zone 2 with the external amp? Once I get an amp, how am I going to pipe my HDMI audio through that new amp powering my 2nd zone?
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post #653 of 5301 Old 08-27-2009, 01:36 PM
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You just select the appropriate HDMI source input for Zone 2. However, until you have an external amp, you'll need to configure your 4310 to do "powered zone 2" which will put Zone 1 in 5.1.
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post #654 of 5301 Old 08-27-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:


Once I installed it I found out quickly that if I try to setup any other zone other than my main, it looks like I lose 7.1 capabilities all together.

This is not true, you can do 7.1 + 2 extra zones as long as you provide external amplification. However, I'm not sure you can accomplish everything you want because of the following limitations:

1. the dual HDMI outs are not really intended for multizone function, they are intended for two different displays (e.g. a regular TV and then a PJ for movies) in the same room really. If you just want to take one HDMI output to the bedroom, that will work fine but as you have found there is no amplification for that other room to also have external speakers.

2. HDMI audio will NOT go out to multizone. The only audio that goes out to multizone is analog audio, or 2.0PCM via SPDIF (optical/coax). So you can't distribute HDMI audio to other zones.

3. the receiver has SEVEN amps. If you are already using 7.1 in Main Zone, then the external zones require external amplification.

The pool speakers are no big deal, that's a very traditional use of Zone 2/3. You just need any old 2-ch amp (or an old stereo receiver) and then make sure any source you want to pipe outside has either an analog or optical/coax connection for 2-ch audio.

The big problem is the bedroom system -- does the TV in the bedroom have an audio output? If so, since it's only two channel, you could run the HDMI to the TV, and then output RCA audio from the "audio out" of the TV to a 2-ch amp which will power the in-wall speakers.

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post #655 of 5301 Old 08-27-2009, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

2. HDMI audio will NOT go out to multizone. The only audio that goes out to multizone is analog audio, or 2.0PCM via SPDIF (optical/coax). So you can't distribute HDMI audio to other zones.


Well that's lame.
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post #656 of 5301 Old 08-27-2009, 02:25 PM
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From what I understand, it's a limitation of HDMI, not Denon. HDMI copyright schemes are very restrictive, it's the same reason why the "Video Select" feature can't be used to mix non-HDMI audio with HDMI video from a different source (e.g. listen to the internet radio while watching the game on TV from the cable box). Big pain in the ass for the consumer.

The VAST majority of receivers will only do analog to Zone 2, and only high-end units will take digital audio (SPDIF) to Zone 2. I don't know of ANY receiver that will take HDMI audio to Zone 2!

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post #657 of 5301 Old 08-28-2009, 07:23 AM
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Batpig is correct. The HDMI/HDCP protocol does not allow separation of audio/video. It also precludes things like Picture-in-Picture & Picture-and-Picture from multiple HDMI sources on your HDTV.

I found another bug on my 4310ci:

I have everything feeding the Denon by HDMI and one HDMI cable going to the HDTV. I had my SA 8300 HDC cable box set to pass through all signals in native format.

I let my TV do the scaling, because it allows me to set overscan amounts for each resolution - i.e. Full Pixel for 1080p, and "normal" overscan for 1080i, 720p, and 480i. If I let the Denon do the scaling to 1080p, I get garbage at the edge of the screen when in "Full Pixel" mode on the TV, so I have to use overscan, but that cuts off the edges of Blu-ray images.

Anyway, whatever resolution is currently running on the cable box when I turn on the Denon works fine - I get the volume bar and menu overlays on all channels with that resolution. If I go to a channel with a different resolution, I lose the overlays. So if I start up on a 720p channel, overlays don't work on 1080i and vice-versa. If I renegotiate the HDMI synch by changing inputs and going back to the cable box, whatever resolution is currently running is OK, and the others lose the overlay. Losing the overlays seemed to be completely random until I figured this out.

Now here's the WEIRD part. I then set the Denon to do ALL upscaling to 1080p, but I get similar behavior. Whatever channel I start with upscales to 1080p correctly, but changing to a channel with another resolution causes the Denon to pass that resolution through instead of scaling it. I verified that "i/p Scaler" is set to "Analog and HDMI".

Now, this could very well be a problem with the SA 8300 HDC which is known to be flakey, or it could be my Sony XBR4 HDTV. I'm pretty sure if I switch to component cables for the cable box everything will work correctly. For now I set the cable box to output only 1080i and it seems to be working fine. And I don't have to wait the extra few seconds for resolution changes when flipping channels. But I'm not really comfortable with scaling 720p to 1080i in the box and then de-interlacing to 1080p in the TV - too many steps.
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post #658 of 5301 Old 08-28-2009, 07:44 AM
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20 min firmware update completed this morning. Not sure what's changed.
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post #659 of 5301 Old 08-28-2009, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RSTide View Post

20 min firmware update completed this morning. Not sure what's changed.

The DTS HD MS 7.1 to 5.1 mixdown bug is not fixed yet.
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post #660 of 5301 Old 08-28-2009, 12:49 PM
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The DTS HD MS 7.1 to 5.1 mixdown bug is not fixed yet.

Bummer
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Denon Avr 4311ci 9 2 Channel Network Multi Room Home Theater Receiver With Hdmi 1 4a , Denon Avr4310ci Receiver , Denon
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