Denon AVR-4310CI Thread - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 5307 Old 10-16-2009, 01:20 AM
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HDMI control is off and it doesn't matter if I use Mon 1 or 2 out it still does it. I figure I got a bad unit.
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post #1082 of 5307 Old 10-16-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeesnz View Post

Can anyone confirm if the 4310 can accept 192/24 LPCM (2 channel & multi channel) through HDMI input and if it does, does audessey still function. The specs & manual seem vague on this. I would like to know before committing to this AVR.

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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Yes and yes.

Whoa, the 4310/4810 can apply Audyssey correction to 192 kHz sampling rate audio? This is a new development, right?

If I recall correctly, previous Denon AVRs could not apply Audyssey to greater than 96 kHz sampling rate audio. Similarly, I believe Onkyo's Audyssey implementation is/was limited to 96 kHz, Yamaha's YPAO to 48 kHz, and Pioneer's MCACC to 96 kHz. FilmMixer, as you have experienced so many different AVRs in residence, can you confirm any of this?

On a related note, does anyone know at what sampling rate the 4310/4810 internally decimate DSD to PCM (if not in DSD Direct mode)? Since the 4310/4810 can post process 192 kHz sampling rate audio, it would be nice if internal decimation occurs at 176.4 kHz.

AJ
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post #1083 of 5307 Old 10-16-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Whoa, the 4310/4810 can apply Audyssey correction to 192 kHz sampling rate audio? This is a new development, right?

If I recall correctly, previous Denon AVRs could not apply Audyssey to greater than 96 kHz sampling rate audio. Similarly, I believe Onkyo's Audyssey implementation is/was limited to 96 kHz, Yamaha's YPAO to 48 kHz, and Pioneer's MCACC to 96 kHz. FilmMixer, as you have experienced so many different AVRs in residence, can you confirm any of this?

On a related note, does anyone know at what sampling rate the 4310/4810 internally decimate DSD to PCM (if not in DSD Direct mode)? Since the 4310/4810 can post process 192 kHz sampling rate audio, it would be nice if internal decimation occurs at 176.4 kHz.

AJ

AJ... I never bothered to check it out on the other units... so can't comment on their performance...

To check this, I put in the 2L "Divertimenti" disc, sending bitstream to the Denon.

Checked the LPCM, DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD, all 5.1 192.... Audyssey was active and switchable on all tracks, and was confirmed to be working audibly...
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post #1084 of 5307 Old 10-17-2009, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

AJ... I never bothered to check it out on the other units... so can't comment on their performance...

Well, I base those assessments on anecdotal reports that I have read on AVS. And I am almost certain that I recall Kal Rubinson writing in Stereophile that the Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro could not apply Audyssey to 192 kHz sample rate audio from one of the 2L BDs, that he had to use Audyssey's stand alone Sound Equalizer (w/ concomitant A/D/A conversions) in order to hear the 2L 192 kHz sampling rate tracks w/ Audyssey correction. However, it is possible that subsequent or current generation Onkyo/Integra AVRs & pre/pros have added enough DSP horsepower to do so.

Anyway, I could be wrong, but I get the impression that Denon's Audyssey implementation that can process 192 kHz sampling rate audio is something new.

AJ
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post #1085 of 5307 Old 10-17-2009, 07:48 AM
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Don't assume anything. Just because the Denon can take 192 KHz as an input (and report it as such), and presumably pass it through in pure direct mode, it doesn't rule out downsampling to 96 KHz prior to Audyssey processing.
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post #1086 of 5307 Old 10-17-2009, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by NAD Paradigm View Post

Don't assume anything. Just because the Denon can take 192 KHz as an input (and report it as such), and presumably pass it through in pure direct mode, it doesn't rule out downsampling to 96 KHz prior to Audyssey processing.

Possible but doubtful. The operating manual would need to disclose such downsampling.

That said, even if the Denon implementation does downsample 192 kHz to 96 kHz prior to Audyssey correction, such is better than no Audyssey at all.

Do not take this the wrong way, but you seem to have an interest in 192 kHz processing not being true. And your username does not exactly project an aura of impartiality.

AJ
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post #1087 of 5307 Old 10-17-2009, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAD Paradigm View Post

Don't assume anything. Just because the Denon can take 192 KHz as an input (and report it as such), and presumably pass it through in pure direct mode, it doesn't rule out downsampling to 96 KHz prior to Audyssey processing.

That may indeed be the case, but unless Denon spills the beans, we'll never know.

However, the Onkyo's and others that are/were known not to process at 192, simply turned off Ausdyssey MultEQ... the Denon most definitely does not, as I can easily hear the audible difference in my room pre and post eq...

I would suspect though that it is working at 192.... there is also a performance hit to down sample to 96... in the end though, 96k, or 48k for that matter, is nothing to sneeze at...
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post #1088 of 5307 Old 10-17-2009, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

there is also a performance hit to down sample to 96...

Yeah, downsampling is no free lunch. It, too, requires DSP resources. If there is not enough available DSP power to post process 192 kHz sampling rate audio, then there may not be enough available DSP power to downsample that audio to 96 kHz.

AJ
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post #1089 of 5307 Old 10-17-2009, 11:49 AM
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What kind of gear and even more importantly, ears one should have to be able to distinguish 96 from 192? 48 and 96 might be another story, but 192
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post #1090 of 5307 Old 10-17-2009, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by giedrys View Post

What kind of gear and even more importantly, ears one should have to be able to distinguish 96 from 192? 48 and 96 might be another story, but 192

Do the least harm. Why downsample the audio format from that on disc (or download) unless absolutely necessary?

AJ
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post #1091 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Well, I base those assessments on anecdotal reports that I have read on AVS. And I am almost certain that I recall Kal Rubinson writing in Stereophile that the Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro could not apply Audyssey to 192 kHz sample rate audio from one of the 2L BDs, that he had to use Audyssey's stand alone Sound Equalizer (w/ concomitant A/D/A conversions) in order to hear the 2L 192 kHz sampling rate tracks w/ Audyssey correction. However, it is possible that subsequent or current generation Onkyo/Integra AVRs & pre/pros have added enough DSP horsepower to do so.

I recall that, too, although as vaguely as you do. Also, I cannot recall if this applied to the bitstreamed signals only or if it applied to the PCM output, too.

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post #1092 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 07:25 AM
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"I can easily hear the audible difference in my room pre and post eq..."

I'm 100 percent sure you can. I'm also 100% sure my ears could not. Which is why you do what you do and me, I'm a registered nurse...

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #1093 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Yeah, downsampling is no free lunch. It, too, requires DSP resources. If there is not enough available DSP power to post process 192 kHz sampling rate audio, then there may not be enough available DSP power to downsample that audio to 96 kHz.

AJ

Downsampling would require almost zero processing power. It's just a matter of skipping every second sample.

But I do hope they aren't downsampling. I have no information on that what so ever.

Mike
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post #1094 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 08:57 AM
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Downsampling would require almost zero processing power. It's just a matter of skipping every second sample.

Not necessarily. Discarding every other sample is the simplest method and would require very few DSP resources. That is not the only method of downsampling, however. Interpolation (e.g. interpolating a new sample between every pair of samples) would require greater DSP resources.

AJ
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post #1095 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by xtrmspl View Post

HDMI control is off and it doesn't matter if I use Mon 1 or 2 out it still does it. I figure I got a bad unit.

Yea, it just does not sound correct.
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post #1096 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 01:18 PM
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Gents, I've read this great thread and the 4310 has really caught my attention thanks to you guys great insight!

I currently have a 5.1 system that consists of B&W CM4 floorstanders, CMC, CM2s for surrounds and a SVS PB1-ISD sub driven by a Rotel RSP-1069/ RMB-1075 AMP with a Panny BD-50 Bluray and a DTV HD21 DVR as sources.

I was wondering what I would gain or lose if I replaced the 1069 with the 4310 and passively biamp all speakers with the 1075 amp.

I'd greatly appreciate your suggestions and opinions.

Thanks, Eddie
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post #1097 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Not necessarily. Discarding every other sample is the simplest method and would require very few DSP resources. That is not the only method of downsampling, however. Interpolation (e.g. interpolating a new sample between every pair of samples) would require greater DSP resources.

AJ

If you want to go that way, I'm sure the DSP loading from:

value = ( *samples++ + *samples++ ) >> 1;

won't break the bank either.
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post #1098 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Possible but doubtful. The operating manual would need to disclose such downsampling.

That said, even if the Denon implementation does downsample 192 kHz to 96 kHz prior to Audyssey correction, such is better than no Audyssey at all.

Do not take this the wrong way, but you seem to have an interest in 192 kHz processing not being true. And your username does not exactly project an aura of impartiality.

AJ

Maybe you should see my posts in the NAD Txx5 threads to see how impartial I am. When I joined AVS I selected my ID because I use NAD and Paradigm gear. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

I have since purchased a Denon 4310ci because my NAD T775 is in the shop for a 3rd time. It's had enough issues to sour me on the Txx5 line. The Denon simply works (for the most part) which is a lot more than I can say for the NAD.

If full Audyssey processing can be applied to a 192 KHz signal, great! I haven't seen another Audyssey receiver implementation that could yet, including NAD. I am just pointing out that since other products downsample 192 KHz to 96 KHz when Audyssey (or other correction EQ) is enabled, one should not assume anything about Denon without documented proof.

I have no way to test it because I have no 192 KHz material. However, even if there is not enough processing power in a receiver to handle 192 KHz 7.1 material, there should still be enough to handle 2-channel 192 KHz.
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post #1099 of 5307 Old 10-18-2009, 11:17 PM
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Does anyone have a recommendation for a wireless bridge to use with the 4310? I'm gonna need some decent range and I'd like to be able to hook up more than one device to it.

Any thoughts?
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post #1100 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 06:17 AM
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Does anyone have a recommendation for a wireless bridge to use with the 4310? I'm gonna need some decent range and I'd like to be able to hook up more than one device to it.

Any thoughts?

I went with a powerline adapter; I chose the sling turbo which includes 4 ports to which I connected my Oppo, HDA35, 3310, and Panasonic V10; all connected without a hitch. It requires no drivers and is almost sure to produce faster results than wifi.
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post #1101 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSTide View Post

I agree, very strange. Maybe it has to do with 1080p60 ouput of the PS3? If I changed the PS3 to output 720p...no issues. Also never had an issue with 1080p24 blu-ray playback, either via PS3 or Oppo.

All I know is, when I plugged my monitor out into HDMI 2, voila, problem solved.

I agree on the cables. HDMI can be more trouble than it's worth.

Well, I finally got around to addressing this issue on my 3310; I moved the PS3 from HDMI input 3 to HDMI input 2 and everything is fine; in addition, my HD-A35 that was previously connected to 2 and is now on 3 is also fine.

In any case, I wouldn't quicly conclude that the hardware is faulty before trying a few different input combinations.
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post #1102 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 07:02 AM
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When i play The Dark Knight on Blu Ray, the 4310 doesn't decode the Dolby Tru-HD signal. It decodes the high-resolution formats of every other recent Blu Ray except that one. Why does it only decode the lossy Dolby 5.1 surround? Does anyone know?

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post #1103 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

I went with a powerline adapter; I chose the sling turbo which includes 4 ports to which I connected my Oppo, HDA35, 3310, and Panasonic V10; all connected without a hitch. It requires no drivers and is almost sure to produce faster results than wifi.

I hadn't considered that...was it easy to set up?
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post #1104 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

When i play The Dark Knight on Blu Ray, the 4310 doesn't decode the Dolby Tru-HD signal. It decodes the high-resolution formats of every other recent Blu Ray except that one. Why does it only decode the lossy Dolby 5.1 surround? Does anyone know?

Because you need to go into the pop-up/set up menu on the disc and select True HD... Dolby Digital is the default audio choice on that disc.
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post #1105 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joen05 View Post

Does anyone have a recommendation for a wireless bridge to use with the 4310? I'm gonna need some decent range and I'd like to be able to hook up more than one device to it.

Any thoughts?

I use an Apple airport to which I also connect a bluray player, and game machine too--it is also very easy to set up if the wireless device on the other end is also an airport as it acts acts as a network extender, on the same subnet.

But really any wireless router will do the job. I've done similar set ups in the past with standard linksys routers, it was just slight more complex to set up than with the Airport. If you are buying new networking gear you should seriously consider using 802.11N compatible gear.
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post #1106 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hery19 View Post

Gents, I've read this great thread and the 4310 has really caught my attention thanks to you guys great insight!

I currently have a 5.1 system that consists of B&W CM4 floorstanders, CMC, CM2s for surrounds and a SVS PB1-ISD sub driven by a Rotel RSP-1069/ RMB-1075 AMP with a Panny BD-50 Bluray and a DTV HD21 DVR as sources.

I was wondering what I would gain or lose if I replaced the 1069 with the 4310 and passively biamp all speakers with the 1075 amp.

I'd greatly appreciate your suggestions and opinions.

Thanks, Eddie

Any suggestions?
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post #1107 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

I went with a powerline adapter; I chose the sling turbo which includes 4 ports to which I connected my Oppo, HDA35, 3310, and Panasonic V10; all connected without a hitch. It requires no drivers and is almost sure to produce faster results than wifi.

I would recommend 802/11n wireless over powerline or 802.11g wireless. Powerline may or may not work for you, it is hit or miss and generally slower in real use then other solutions. But powerline it can be easy to setup and if speed is not an issue a good solution in many circumstances.

802.11g can work very well but you can run into issues with interference with other networks and bluetooth which uses some of the same frequencies (and some coordless phones and even microwave ovens.). Also the distance a signal will travel is somewhat limited.

802.11n running at 5ghz is a less saturated spectrum and generally you will not see interference issues, it runs very fast, and has a much farther distance than other wireless options. 802.11n harware can run at both 2.8ghz (same as bluetooth and 802.11g) or 5ghz, and newer firewall routers can run both frequencies at the same time. If posssible you would want to use the 5ghz signal to bridge/extend a network.
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post #1108 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 09:34 AM
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After messing with it a little more I found out that if I dont turn on the tv it will play back audio but as soon as I turn the tv on it stops and to get it to play again I have to turn the blu-ray player and the receiver off and then back on again without the tv on. Apparently its a HDMI problem, I thought Denon had their $hit together better than this but apparently not.

You don't by chance have a DVI display do you? What you describe is very common when connecting to a TV with an HDMI/DVI cable.

Anyway, the problem you describe is clearly some sort of HDCP authentication failure between the Denon and your TV. Whether it's the Denon or the TV that is "at fault" is really impossible to determine; you could switch to a different Denon or a different brand AVR and it might work.... you could also switch to a different TV and it might work. So who is "at fault"? Tt's just one of these annoying things that we as consumers are stuck with thanks to HDCP.

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post #1109 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 01:05 PM
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I hadn't considered that...was it easy to set up?

It was literally plug and play; it comes in two pieces, one that connects by ethernet to your router in the room where you keep your router and the other you connect to your equipment. There were no drivers, nothing. It was as tough I was connecting the equipment directly to the router via Cat 5/6.
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post #1110 of 5307 Old 10-19-2009, 01:38 PM
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It was literally plug and play; it comes in two pieces, one that connects by ethernet to your router in the room where you keep your router and the other you connect to your equipment. There were no drivers, nothing. It was as tough I was connecting the equipment directly to the router via Cat 5/6.

My anecdotal experience (on my 3808) is that the Linksys powerline adapter is far, FAR superior to a router or bridge. I am getting much faster speeds with the powerline adapter than with my wireless g as well. Go over to Amazon and check the user ratings for the Linksys powerline adapter: it is one of the few network devices I looked at that uniformly gets almost all 4-5 star reviews. Of course YMMV and every network environment is different, but after dicking around with all kinds of wireless solutions for my 3808 the powerline adapter was like a breath of fresh air. The only downside is that now I have to spend another $13/month on Rhapsody becuase it sounds so great and works flawlessly.
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