PLIIz Height Speaker Review - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 172 Old 07-14-2009, 09:01 PM
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Joe, could u make a speaker map of your set up? subs too, mega thanks
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post #92 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 02:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Joe, could u make a speaker map of your set up? subs too, mega thanks

Maybe when I get back. I am on vacation and internet time is tough.

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post #93 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 04:45 AM
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For me the jury is still out on this (but I enjoy hearing Joe's experiences)...

I worry about how these extra front speakers interact with the others and if unwanted sounds find their way in on occasion and serve as a distraction ( a known issue with matrixing).. Moreover, I am a stickler to dialog intelligibility. That has to stay intact. I have a lot invested into my room and system (like Joe) and all is very balanced and acoustically accurate with a very high dynamic range (due to controlling reverb time (very low RT60) and a very low noise floor - NC30). Matrixing can hurt the reverb time unless they are designed into the space or primary and secondary reflections can be addressed.

For this really to pique my interest, a dedicated, discrete height channel (8.1/9.1) would have to happen and be adopted by the studios. Morever, for many it'd be some pretty major construction to build in 2 extra speakers into my baffle wall (behind a microperf) as I don't have 3 ft above. My speakers are at 'mouth level' behind the screen (I have tiered seating - 3 rows) and space is tight above. So, for many with front projection/microperfs, the sacrifices may far outweigh the need for height! Speakers on the floor or below the screen, for many, are something to avoid. To make this work, you'd have to have your LCR speakers below the screen to get the 3 ft + of height needed for 'height' speakers or a very tall room (the front of my room is 10' and is still short). I worry also about the extra ceiling reflections putting speakers so close to the ceiling - just like the increased, unwanted reflections with putting speakers near the floor. You'd have to put absorption around these height speakers or you'd really add to your reverb time and hurt dynamic range. To me, a dedicated channel would be a must so as to keep unwanted hash out of the mix. This certainly provides cool moments, but at what other costs? Those of us who've been at his for a while no matrixing sound has its pluses... but it also has it minuses by adding unwanted material and hurting the sound. There is no free lunch, especially with matrixing sound. See baffle wall below:





That said, I like hearing Joe's (anyone's) impressions. It's new. It seems cool. I'd have to hear it myself before adding another amplifier and speakers.

Any plans for a dedicated channel? This would be [likely] a must for me. This seems to be for gamers primarily as there are height encoders used by the gaming industry (per Dolby). That said, none in Hollywood are using them.

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post #94 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 05:34 AM
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How often do the height channel engage? I wonder if the width-mode would engage more.

Jeff, assuming these only engage a minimal amount of time, and when they do it is to enhance directional queues, wouldn't you think the RT60 would not be impacted? Are you thinking the additional processes might impact RT60, even when the new channels are not engaged?
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post #95 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post

How often do the height channel engage? I wonder if the width-mode would engage more.

Jeff, assuming these only engage a minimal amount of time, and when they do it is to enhance directional queues, wouldn't you think the RT60 would not be impacted? Are you thinking the additional processes might impact RT60, even when the new channels are not engaged?

It's matrixing and the studios are not using the specific encoders like the gaming industry is. So, being precise is impossible for movies (at this point). Moreover, since it is a matrix process, they are likely engaged constantly but at limited volume when there is no material to feed on. Just like any other matrix device.

RE: RT60. Putting any speaker near a wall, ceiling, corner will increase reverb unless you treat for it (which is difficult near any wall/ceiling). I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be difficult.

I'm most worried about the unintentional sounds associated with matrixing.

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post #96 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 05:52 AM
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Got it. I was thinking perhaps the concern was the matrixing might cause some smearing, specifically when the new channels were not engaged because of processing. Now I understand your concern of matrixing alone in addition to the treatment issue.

So, another question for the people that have this working is how often to you get a bad interpretation? I am thinking about how sometimes when I watch a football game the DPL gets fooled and sends the color commentary to the surrounds or overly boosts the crowd noise.
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post #97 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 06:06 AM
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So, another question for the people that have this working is how often to you get a bad interpretation? I am thinking about how sometimes when I watch a football game the DPL gets fooled and sends the color commentary to the surrounds or overly boosts the crowd noise.

Yes. Exactly. This is where a discrete channel would be ideal or, at a minimum, for the movie studios to use an encoder when mixing the soundtrack. Sure, as Joe points out, there would be some 'wow' moments, but there would be some of the uglier matrixing artifacts, too (e.g. your football analogy).

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post #98 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 10:27 AM
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"I worry also about the extra ceiling reflections putting speakers so close to the ceiling"

You could handle that and most of your other concerns by putting them in/on the ceiling at the spec'd 45 deg elevation from the listening seats.

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post #99 of 172 Old 07-15-2009, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I worry also about the extra ceiling reflections putting speakers so close to the ceiling"

You could handle that and most of your other concerns by putting them in/on the ceiling at the spec'd 45 deg elevation from the listening seats.

When a discrete version comes along, I'd likely make the move as it would be a big deal construction wise to accomplish. I'd also have to get an analysis of the front of the room to find the most desirable location for two new speakers.. I'd hate to do it and complain every now and again about the extraneous matrixing effects.

When I had my set up in the family room, it would've been easier to try out.. Not so much now.. I have to know it will be better prior. That said, if it was easy to rig up, like Joe found, I'd certainly install such and check it out.! Crap!

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post #100 of 172 Old 07-21-2009, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Joe, that cubby hole screams to be built out with an acoustic screen in front of it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I know. I have contemplated it but we have considered possibly moving which would mean I could start over from scratch.

Looking at your room, I would say you would have to make a decision on what is more important audio or video. With your black shadow box, you are maximizing your ANSI cr. Pull it out and your room will have an effect on your ANSI. Also, no matter what anyone says an acoustic screen is a compromise to video quality. The best screens can minimize it, but it still can't compare to a solid screen.


Now, I am really glad you gave your impressions. I have always wondered about height channels and you believe it has been beneficial. Jeff has some valid concerns and hopefully in the future we will have discrete channels, but for now this may be an additive experience.

My new favorite game is Save The Titanic

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post #101 of 172 Old 07-21-2009, 07:58 PM
 
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Looking at your room, I would say you would have to make a decision on what is more important audio or video. With your black shadow box, you are maximizing your ANSI cr. Pull it out and your room will have an effect on your ANSI. Also, no matter what anyone says an acoustic screen is a compromise to video quality. The best screens can minimize it, but it still can't compare to a solid screen.


Now, I am really glad you gave your impressions. I have always wondered about height channels and you believe it has been beneficial. Jeff has some valid concerns and hopefully in the future we will have discrete channels, but for now this may be an additive experience.

I would assume that once the acoustic screen was in place the front wall of the room (now the screen wall) would be painted black. AT screen is still the way to go if you can do it.
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post #102 of 172 Old 07-25-2009, 09:33 PM
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I would assume that once the acoustic screen was in place the front wall of the room (now the screen wall) would be painted black. AT screen is still the way to go if you can do it.

Just painting the front wall isn't going to help ANSI contrast. As for the AT screen, why do you say it is the way to go? It is a matter of what you value more, whether that is maximum video quality, audio quality or a combination. Joe seems to be more than happy with his audio set-up right now. Why should he compromise his video quality for an increase in audio quality especially since Joe seems to be pretty particular about his video?

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post #103 of 172 Old 08-06-2009, 04:20 AM
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How is tis different from yamaha's dsp whuch also adds presence speakers?

Do they work the same?
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post #104 of 172 Old 08-06-2009, 06:42 AM
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How is tis different from yamaha's dsp whuch also adds presence speakers?

PLIIz places its height speakers high and straight above the front L/R speakers. Yamaha place its presence speakers higher and wider than the front L/R speakers.

PLIIz extracts ambience (decorrelated info) from the recording. Yamaha generates ambience (reverb, early reflections) that is added to the recording.

The intention of PLIIz is a subtle sense of height and greater envelopment. The intention of Yamaha's DSP modes is room simulation (mimicking specific venues that they've measured).

Different speaker placement, different approaches, different goals.

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post #105 of 172 Old 08-06-2009, 06:54 AM
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PLIIz places its height speakers high and straight above the front L/R speakers. Yamaha place its presence speakers higher and wider than the front L/R speakers.

PLIIz extracts ambience (decorrelated info) from the recording. Yamaha generates ambience (reverb, early reflections) that is added to the recording.

The intention of PLIIz is a subtle sense of height and greater envelopment. The intention of Yamaha's DSP modes is room simulation (mimicking specific venues that they've measured).

Different speaker placement, different approaches, different goals.

Thanks Sanjay! Looks like PLIIz is better. NowI woder if studios will start to encode films using this PLIIz
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post #106 of 172 Old 08-09-2009, 12:52 PM
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I have a Denon 1909. Although I am very pleased with how Dolby PLIIx alters 5.1 into 7.1, I'm curious how PLIIz compares with DSX. Can't wait for a new thread/forum-battle to begin.
Thanks to all.
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post #107 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 06:41 AM
 
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So after spending a considerable amount of time working with the new sound format I can honestly say I am very surprised. I went in not expecting to be floored but after 5 minutes I was sold! The very first material I tried was the past Superbowl when Harrison gets the pick and runs it all the way back. Within seconds I was smiling. As the play starts the crowd seemed more in the regular Fronts (though lightly in the Heights) but as he picks it off and they go crazy they are in the Heights screaming. It really does add to the effect that you feel like you are there. I did it a few times and had a few come down and listen to. I even made my neighbor come over. Everyone's jaw hit the floor. I then decided to try some movie material. Keep in mind all of this so far has been just with DirecTV. First was Forrest Gump. The rain scenes were awesome. As were the helicopter pans. I think 3D sound does describe it pretty well. Whatever we end up calling it I don't care. I plan to use it whenever I am in the theater. I then watched a few other movies. Depending on the scene the Heights were either dead quiet or roaring. They do have the effect of drawing you in. Especially if you are falling asleep. I am using an Onkyo 607 but can't wait for Onkyo's higher end to get here! I will post my take on the 607 in the owner's thread. I just wanted to post my experiences with the PLIIz Height format.

So of course with Blu ray I was even more impressed with how well the Heights responded. Keep in mind again not every single scene will have Height sound. The ones that will are the ones that will "draw" you in. When it happens you will know. A lot of "action" movies are really going to benefit. I know there have been a couple online "reviews" saying they didn't hear a difference or heard nothing from the Height speakers. I can only say what I have experienced. If they put a movie in and didn't hear anything in 5 minutes then that is their loss. After spending a good 12 hours of "play" time I am more than convinced.

This new format is here to stay and truly is as impressive (or even more than) as Surround Backs. Studies have shown more people respond to Front Sound and now I am one of those people. Until you have had a chance to listen to them set up correctly in a good environment words will not explain the positive effect PLIIz Heights have. Listening is believing.

Pics show the new "height" speakers above the Front Left and Right.

PLIIz "height" is yet another worthless "phantom" post processing function. Instead of buying or adding another small cheap set of limited range bookshelf speakers you really should put the money into upgrading the current ones you have and maybe actually mounting and installing your present speakers in better locations.

Example: Your center channel is on the ground? Your using a front projector setup, mount that center channel BEHIND the screen just slightly higher than the horizontal split plane(if you have 8 foot ceilings, you mount just above the 4 foot mark)and properly eq the speaker to compensate for it being mounted behind the screen.
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post #108 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigZippyBongHits View Post

PLIIz "height" is yet another worthless "phantom" post processing function. Instead of buying or adding another small cheap set of limited range bookshelf speakers you really should put the money into upgrading the current ones you have and maybe actually mounting and installing your present speakers in better locations.

I made the exact same argument in another DPLIIz thread when it was announced & found myself in a posting loop with sanjay & Roger Dressler Good luck making the argument here

I haven't heard a demo, hoped to at the CEDIA show in Sept but no one, including Dolby, had one (AFAIK). Dolby's booth was pretty poor.

Until I hear a convincing demo, I remain somewhat skeptical. The only compelling reason I can see is if the main speakers were satellites/bookshelf height and locating a ht. speaker at the ceiling could help in some rooms. With properly located, full size (not range, Roger ) that can fill the room already, I'm not sure there would be much enhancement.

And although I've agreed with most of joerod's reviews & viewpoints, I do agree that his "original" speaker setup where they were located near ground level is less than ideal anyway. I believe he had changed that though...using better, tower type l/r speakers for his reviews and locating the drivers at ear level, so the "critique" is probably no longer valid (I don't know what he did with the center).

Hopefully, Joe will see this and update the thread about his speaker setup.

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post #109 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 05:34 PM
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"PLIIz "height" is yet another worthless "phantom" post processing function. Instead of buying or adding another small cheap..."

Very rational, condemn a processing mode because you don't approve of someone's setup.

Noah
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post #110 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 05:42 PM
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Whats the price of this?
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post #111 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigZippyBongHits View Post

PLIIz "height" is yet another worthless "phantom" post processing function. Instead of buying or adding another small cheap set of limited range bookshelf speakers you really should put the money into upgrading the current ones you have and maybe actually mounting and installing your present speakers in better locations.

Example: Your center channel is on the ground? Your using a front projector setup, mount that center channel BEHIND the screen just slightly higher than the horizontal split plane(if you have 8 foot ceilings, you mount just above the 4 foot mark)and properly eq the speaker to compensate for it being mounted behind the screen.

I appreciate the advice. Those "cheap" speakers are 600.00 a pair!
As for "worthless" processing you wouldn't think that if you heard my sound in my theater. I also use JBL Arenas for the Wides which are much higher (not pictured) on the 22" speaker stands. And the Center is actually angled up (about 2") which works perfectly in my theater. Behind the screen speaker set ups I have never been a fan of. And where have you been? This thread has been around a pretty long time...

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post #112 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 05:57 PM
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Most people have heard Yamaha's implementation and write off the IIz/DSX systems in the same breath.

They are not the same.

Don't just take joe's word for it, Tech Radar already has a review of the 4310 which covers this. There is also a recent review of the 4810 in Sound&Vision mag website.
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post #113 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Simply stated Height sound with movies is a HUGE upgrade and quite frankly if you are not doing it you are falling behind the times. The most negative people are the ones that have never heard it.

DSX sound for Sports is also a HUGE must (once you hear it once). We hear the QB barking the signals, crowd chatter and the PA announce perfectly up there. The at home game experience has never sounded better. I am excited for my family to hear them with tomorrow's games.

And for them to hear the great sound I have while watching some movies this weekend. I have never had anyone leave disappointed with my sound... And I doubt I will this weekend using an Onkyo 5507 Pro/B&K 200.7 AMP/Niles SI 275 AMP and my crappy speaker set up...

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post #114 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

Most people have heard Yamaha's implementation and write off the IIz/DSX systems in the same breath.

They are not the same.

Don't just take joe's word for it, Tech Radar already has a review of the 4310 which covers this. There is also a recent review of the 4810 in Sound&Vision mag website.

HT mag also stated it was very good and were excited about what it would bring in the future...

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post #115 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 06:10 PM
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joe, am surprised you went for the 5507.

My main gripe is that it only allows for 9.1 channels. And unlike yr older 1007, it doesn't even support speaker connections for both wide/height at the same time so you can toggle.

That's why I went with the 4810 in the end, so I could get all 11

Have just hooked up all 11 speakers last night. Now just need to raise the height speakers tonight.

Can't wait.
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post #116 of 172 Old 11-25-2009, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

joe, am surprised you went for the 5507.

My main gripe is that it only allows for 9.1 channels. And unlike yr older 1007, it doesn't even support speaker connections for both wide/height at the same time so you can toggle.

That's why I went with the 4810 in the end, so I could get all 11

Have just hooked up all 11 speakers last night. Now just need to raise the height speakers tonight.

Can't wait.

Remember, I am only doing a Review. I may end up with the 4810 soon as well. Of course honestly I like the sound with doing Height for Movies and DSX for Sports with just using the speakers above the Fronts (Heights). It works well that way and I am very satisfied. Considering this is my 8th or 9th component in a few months I do need a break.

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post #117 of 172 Old 11-26-2009, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
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Remember, I am only doing a Review. I may end up with the 4810 soon as well. Of course honestly I like the sound with doing Height for Movies and DSX for Sports with just using the speakers above the Fronts (Heights). It works well that way and I am very satisfied. Considering this is my 8th or 9th component in a few months I do need a break.

Joe,

Have you done Wides yet in combination with Heights? I'm considering this and eas interested in hearing your experience. Particularly regarding matching speakers across the front 5.

Louis
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post #118 of 172 Old 11-27-2009, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Remember, I am only doing a Review. I may end up with the 4810 soon as well. Of course honestly I like the sound with doing Height for Movies and DSX for Sports with just using the speakers above the Fronts (Heights). It works well that way and I am very satisfied. Considering this is my 8th or 9th component in a few months I do need a break.

Joerod, since you have extensive listening experience with the height speakers, do you think the processing by either PLIIz or DSX would sound effective if they were placed on the ceiling and slightly forward of the main seating area. My interest is for the action/scifi/fantasy genre for flyovers, photon torpedoes and the like to carry sound in the front-back or vice versa effects? Or is the processing such that it wouldn't necessarily carry the visual effect of that action and does more with vague ambient sounds?
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post #119 of 172 Old 12-08-2009, 04:08 PM
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My new Integra DHC 80.1 SSP has 9.2 capability with height or width channels added to 5.1 or 7.1 for a max of 9 speakers. At this point, only the new Denon AVR 4810ci supports 11 channel audio (7.1 plus heights and or widths). The Integra supports both Height channel formats, Dolby Height and Audyssey DSX.

I am finding much to like about the Height Channels. I am using the JTR Slanted 8's that were performing Surround Back duty in my system as the Height speakers. The 30⁰ degree front baffle makes them the perfect angle for my 9' ceiling mount and I have them aimed just outside of the main listening position. Also, the coaxial driver of the S8 seems to perfectly cover the frequency range for the extracted height channel data.

After installing the Heights last week, I immediately noticed a much taller and wider front sound stage. It literally creates a wall of sound reminiscent of the best theaters (including IMAX). I have had a chance to test this with both new and familiar movie audio as well as M/C music and it is working equally well with both formats. Some other early adopters () have indicated liking the Heights for HT but not so much for music. I have found the Height speakers improve the sound of both music and movies and am currently running one or the other height channel format for all my multi channel sources.

I have experimented with Dolby height and Audyssey DSX processing and found any difference between the formats is minor. I currently am using Dolby height for all Dolby M/C audio sources and Audyssey DSX for DTS source material. Again, I have not had a height format preference at this point and I am enjoying them equally.

Audyssey says that the wide speakers add more to the surround experience than the Heights but I do not have the space for width speakers in my room. Also, my Integra DHC 80.1 will not allow for both heights and width to be used at the same time so unfortunately for me, Heights are the only choice.

For me the Height Channel speakers are not a gimmick and have added as much to SQ as any upgrade I have done including room treatments. Now, my dilemma is should I buy another pair of S8's for surround back duty? One thing is certain, the Height speakers are staying.


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post #120 of 172 Old 12-08-2009, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

My new Integra DHC 80.1 SSP has 9.2 capability with height or width channels added to 5.1 or 7.1 for a max of 9 speakers. At this point, only the new Denon AVR 4810ci supports 11 channel audio (7.1 plus heights and or widths). The Integra supports both Height channel formats, Dolby Height and Audyssey DSX.

I am finding much to like about the Height Channels. I am using the JTR Slanted 8's that were performing Surround Back duty in my system as the Height speakers. The 30⁰ degree front baffle makes them the perfect angle for my 9' ceiling mount and I have them aimed just outside of the main listening position. Also, the coaxial driver of the S8 seems to perfectly cover the frequency range for the extracted height channel data.

After installing the Heights last week, I immediately noticed a much taller and wider front sound stage. It literally creates a wall of sound reminiscent of the best theaters (including IMAX). I have had a chance to test this with both new and familiar movie audio as well as M/C music and it is working equally well with both formats. Some other early adopters () have indicated liking the Heights for HT but not so much for music. I have found the Height speakers improve the sound of both music and movies and am currently running one or the other height channel format for all my multi channel sources.

I have experimented with Dolby height and Audyssey DSX processing and found any difference between the formats is minor. I currently am using Dolby height for all Dolby M/C audio sources and Audyssey DSX for DTS source material. Again, I have not had a height format preference at this point and I am enjoying them equally.

Audyssey says that the wide speakers add more to the surround experience than the Heights but I do not have the space for width speakers in my room. Also, my Integra DHC 80.1 will not allow for both heights and width to be used at the same time so unfortunately for me, Heights are the only choice.

For me the Height Channel speakers are not a gimmick and have added as much to SQ as any upgrade I have done including room treatments. Now, my dilemma is should I buy another pair of S8's for surround back duty? One thing is certain, the Height speakers are staying.

i dont think i would be satisfied if i dont have the heights and wides together. so the denon4810 is my only choice?
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