*OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 2310CI / 890 Owner's Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it is more about the convenience of having the display work through HDMI. On the 790 how does on screen work if your connections are through HDMI?

the biggest improvement with the 890 in this respect is that you get OVERLAY of the OSD/GUI. On the 790/1910 (and older models), what happens is the video blanks out to a black screen and then your TV has to re-sync to the OSD. depending on your TV you may get a delay of a few seconds (just like when switching between an HD and an SD channel on cable).

so you still get OSD over HDMI, it just doesn't smoothly OVERLAY on top of the video.


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Specifically, I thought that the processor would perform judder reduction for 24fps that my plasma does not do...

judder reduction is difficult if your TV is stuck playing at 60Hz regardless of the input signal -- better video processing can help but the bottom line is there is no "smooth" way to squeeze 24 fps material into 60 frames for output.

have you taken a 1080p/24 input, and compared how it looks going straight to the TV vs being processed to 1080p/60 by the Denon AVR? specifically, with slow pans in a movie where "judder" can be pretty apparent?

I'm curious about this... but I think the bottom line is that the only TRUE solution for film "judder" is to get a display that can refresh at a multiple of 24fps.

the 890/2310 model (with ABT-2010) appears to be able to cross-convert 1080p/24 > 1080p/60, whereas the lesser ABT chip in the 1910/790 model looks to just pass it through untouched.

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post #62 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 03:44 PM
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Am I correct in understanding (from another thread) that the 2310 is the lowest model in the 2010 lineup that has the new GUI system?
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post #63 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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yes, that is correct

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post #64 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the biggest improvement with the 890 in this respect is that you get OVERLAY of the OSD/GUI. On the 790/1910 (and older models), what happens is the video blanks out to a black screen and then your TV has to re-sync to the OSD. depending on your TV you may get a delay of a few seconds (just like when switching between an HD and an SD channel on cable).

so you still get OSD over HDMI, it just doesn't smoothly OVERLAY on top of the video.




judder reduction is difficult if your TV is stuck playing at 60Hz regardless of the input signal -- better video processing can help but the bottom line is there is no "smooth" way to squeeze 24 fps material into 60 frames for output.

have you taken a 1080p/24 input, and compared how it looks going straight to the TV vs being processed to 1080p/60 by the Denon AVR? specifically, with slow pans in a movie where "judder" can be pretty apparent?

I'm curious about this... but I think the bottom line is that the only TRUE solution for film "judder" is to get a display that can refresh at a multiple of 24fps.

the 890/2310 model (with ABT-2010) appears to be able to cross-convert 1080p/24 > 1080p/60, whereas the lesser ABT chip in the 1910/790 model looks to just pass it through untouched.

Thanks for the response.

I assume that with the 790 you press a button for menu or on screen display before the screen switches to display and that volume adjustments don't interrupt your display.

I have not had a chance to experiment with blue ray and judder yet. I have borrowed a friends PS3. When I get a chance to try it I will will report back.
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post #65 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 06:35 PM
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I'm looking at various Denon AVRs and wondering what benefits the AVR890 offers in the video department if I already have a 1080P HDTV using 120Hz technology (Vizio SV470XVT)? I also have a Panasonic BD35 Blue Ray, Wii, Slingbox -- as well as Verizon FIOS.

I know the audio benefits would be outstanding as I currently just use the TV speakers. However, what about video? Sorry for such a basic question, but I assume the video will look as good, or better, passing it through the AVR from the FIOS and Blue Ray letting the HDTV worry about processing the video signals. Or, is that not the case?

I'm trying to get a feel for an AVR to drive the setup I described and the following speakers. I'm thinking the AVR890 is more than I need for both video and audio.

Front: Infinity Primus P362
Center: Infinity Primus PC350
Rear: Infinity Primus P162
Subwoofer: BIC America F12
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post #66 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 07:17 PM
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So... I ordered my 2310 from 6ave.com and it should be here next week. Can't wait!

In the interim, anyone have luck printing the 2310 manual from Denon's site? I can print the 3310 manual, but the 2310 manual's .pdf is encrypted with a password that prevents printing! Very frustrating!
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post #67 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 08:53 PM
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I can't print it either.
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post #68 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanmark View Post

So... I ordered my 2310 from 6ave.com and it should be here next week. Can't wait!

In the interim, anyone have luck printing the 2310 manual from Denon's site? I can print the 3310 manual, but the 2310 manual's .pdf is encrypted with a password that prevents printing! Very frustrating!

try the AVR 890 manual... same receiver.

anyway, you shouldn't need to print the whole manual if you ordered the receiver and it will be here next week. waste of paper!

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post #69 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccquadman View Post

I'm looking at various Denon AVRs and wondering what benefits the AVR890 offers in the video department if I already have a 1080P HDTV using 120Hz technology (Vizio SV470XVT)? I also have a Panasonic BD35 Blue Ray, Wii, Slingbox -- as well as Verizon FIOS.

it totally depends on (1) how good your TV's processing is, (2) the sources you are feeding it, and (3) how obsessively picky you are about noticing PQ upgrades.

it's not going to be something that smacks you in the face like the change from TV speakers to a real AV setup. External video processing is only beneficial if it is better than the processing that is already built into your TV.

For sources which are already HD (e.g. Blu-Ray, HD cable from FIOS) you probably will not notice any difference. For SD sources like the Wii.... you may notice an increase in apparent detail and less "jaggies", maybe a little smoother overall PQ.

But don't expect miracles...

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post #70 of 7245 Old 07-07-2009, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sstea View Post

Thanks for the response.

I assume that with the 790 you press a button for menu or on screen display before the screen switches to display and that volume adjustments don't interrupt your display..

You completely lose the ability to see "status" items like input source and the volume display. Nothing will OVERLAY over the video image, so that functionality will be completely gone.... so, yes, it will not interrupt your video every time you change the volume or a speaker channel level or whatever.

If you want to call up the OSD menus, you hit the menu button and it blanks out the video and the menu pops up over a black screen.

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post #71 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 05:00 AM
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Mine should be here Friday (preordered for a good price from Abt) so I'm starting to dig through the manual a bit. It looks like my options for naming the inputs is pretty limited, like Denon thinks no one connects gaming devices or HTPCs? With all the technology built into this thing I can't assign more usable names to inputs? They've still got "VCR" available though....

Another question, I have an older Sony Grand Wega 4 (2004) with (as I understand it) a fixed pixel resolution of 768, rather than the standard 720. It looks like the closest I can output from the Denon would be 720p, so just about everything is going to be scaled twice. It's unfortunate because the Denon will probably be better at scaling than the Sony, but it'll still need the 720->768 scaling on the Sony. I'll play with it but does anyone have any thoughts?
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post #72 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95se View Post

Mine should be here Friday (preordered for a good price from Abt) so I'm starting to dig through the manual a bit. It looks like my options for naming the inputs is pretty limited, like Denon thinks no one connects gaming devices or HTPCs? With all the technology built into this thing I can't assign more usable names to inputs? They've still got "VCR" available though....

I'm pretty sure (and batpig please correct me if I'm wrong) that you can rename the inputs however you like in the menu. The names of the actual inputs on the back are just generic stuff held over from years past.

You create a source in the menu system, for example "PS3" or "XBOX", then assign whatever backside inputs you connected it to. This could be the HDMI port labeled (Sat/Cbl) if you want. This is why batpig recommends writing down where you connect each source, so you can properly assign the ports to each device in the menus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95se View Post

Another question, I have an older Sony Grand Wega 4 (2004) with (as I understand it) a fixed pixel resolution of 768, rather than the standard 720. It looks like the closest I can output from the Denon would be 720p, so just about everything is going to be scaled twice. It's unfortunate because the Denon will probably be better at scaling than the Sony, but it'll still need the 720->768 scaling on the Sony. I'll play with it but does anyone have any thoughts?

The Sony should be quite good at scaling considering no content (outside a computer connection) outputs at the same resolution as the TVs native resolution. A lot of TVs used this native resolution a few years back, and I believe 720p is the best option to use with them.

If you output your HTPC at the native resolution of the display (the 768), then you might want to consider connecting it directly to the TV (since the audio will be a separate cable anyway) or set the receiver to pass through for that source if that's an option. Otherwise, just set the Denon to output 720p and let the Sony scale as necessary.
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post #73 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by chumaj001 View Post

Well i would love to, but its impossible - center is about 5mm higher, than the shelf. But its not laying directly on the floor, I have it on couple of very soft cloth stickers, so its not resonating.

Right now, I will have to solve another problem, since the receiver is also very high, and there is only 4mm of free space over it so its running very hot after some time. I will probably have to put it on the floor right next to the center. But this means to disconnect zillion of the cables again...

Buy a new rack. You're cheating yourself!!! Even crappy Ikea will help you here.

If you have to put the center on the floor at least angle the center up towards the listener.
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post #74 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like my options for naming the inputs is pretty limited

actually, as SoM pointed out that is totally false, you can rename your inputs to whatever you want! you even get symbols, upper case vs lower case, etc. See pg 39 of the 2310CI manual. with the ability to reassign inputs you actually have an extremely flexible system; excluding PHONO and TUNER (which can't be used for anything else) there are eight usable input names (seven video inputs + one audio only input) that you can fool around with.


Quote:


Another question, I have an older Sony Grand Wega 4 (2004) with (as I understand it) a fixed pixel resolution of 768, rather than the standard 720. It looks like the closest I can output from the Denon would be 720p, so just about everything is going to be scaled twice. It's unfortunate because the Denon will probably be better at scaling than the Sony, but it'll still need the 720->768 scaling on the Sony. I'll play with it but does anyone have any thoughts?

again, as SoM correctly points out this is a very common HDTV resolution (my 50" plasma is also 768p) and these sets are designed to look great with 1080i/720p inputs.

I am assuming your set doesn't accept 1080p, and 1080i is the highest resolution it could accept? I would suggest you simply try out 720p vs 1080i as the scaling output resolution and see how things go. In my experience, 768p displays look best when fed the highest resolution possible (1080i) because downscaling is much easier than upscaling.

So I would let any native 720p/1080i sources pass through untouched, and any SD sources (480i/p) you should test the output resolution options and see if you can tell a difference. Again, the Denon is very flexible in this regard as you can set the video processing options separately by input. So, for example, you can have video processing turned off on the Blu Ray player, have the Wii scaled up to 1080i, etc.

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post #75 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 02:54 PM
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Thanks Batpig and sticks1839! Much appreciated! I'll try to hold off more questions until I get the thing up and running, hopefully I can bring some value as well being an earlier adopter. My harmony one showed up today and the 2310 is coming Friday.
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post #76 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 02:56 PM
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I am still stuck on this purchase. I was considering trying to find a closeout on a 989/2809 but those dont seem to be around from authorized vendors. Has anyone here done a good demo of the 2 head to head is the sound really that different. I dont think my room will be overly difficult for the Audessy. But just curious to know more.
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post #77 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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they will not sound any different, make your decision on price vs features

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post #78 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 08:10 PM
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finally got my hands on the 890 today, quite significant improvements from my previous Onkyo 605, the upconvert for Wii and normal DVD was noticeable and really good. GUI over HDMI overlay was neat.
Sounded good also, but really haven't heard it completely and audessey setting is still left.
One problem i am having is when i change from my DVD to cable mood i need to change the volume drastically can the i store any memory setting in the receiver also subwoofer gets noticeable only when i really crank up the volume is that normal?
The remote is really a crap, i really liked my previous Onkyo receiver remote, have to get one universal remote for sure, which one do people normally suggest?
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post #79 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 08:57 PM
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I'm hoping to get my 890 tomarrow.
I keep counting the days...
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post #80 of 7245 Old 07-08-2009, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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One problem i am having is when i change from my DVD to cable mood i need to change the volume drastically can the i store any memory setting in the receiver

volume differences among sources are very normal. one option you have is to use the three QUICK SELECT buttons to switch sources -- when you memorize these quick selects it remembers the volume level as well (please see the manual for more info on Quick Selects and what is memorized).

Quote:


also subwoofer gets noticeable only when i really crank up the volume

well you haven't even run Audyssey so I am assuming your speaker volumes are totally out of balance, don't pass judgement until you have at the minimum balanced speaker volumes.

Quote:


have to get one universal remote for sure, which one do people normally suggest?

wow, where have you been! Harmony baby!
Refurb deals righ tnow: Harmony 670 is $45 shipped from Amazon, 550 is $40 shipped.

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post #81 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 04:15 AM
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Hey Batpig- For a denon 2310 (or other) and a Harmony One are we still better off loading the 3808 codes, having Harmony put your codes on our accounts, or did they fix the current codes for a 2309 (and presumably 2310 when they load that in)? Just trying to figure out the best starting point. Thanks in advance!
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post #82 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

volume differences among sources are very normal. one option you have is to use the three QUICK SELECT buttons to switch sources -- when you memorize these quick selects it remembers the volume level as well (please see the manual for more info on Quick Selects and what is memorized).



well you haven't even run Audyssey so I am assuming your speaker volumes are totally out of balance, don't pass judgement until you have at the minimum balanced speaker volumes.



wow, where have you been! Harmony baby!
Refurb deals righ tnow: Harmony 670 is $45 shipped from Amazon, 550 is $40 shipped.

The quick selects settings worked fine batpig, thanks, Ya need to run the speakers completely, still wiring the surronds
Considering between 880 or 890 or the one remote now
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post #83 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 95se View Post

Hey Batpig- For a denon 2310 (or other) and a Harmony One are we still better off loading the 3808 codes, having Harmony put your codes on our accounts, or did they fix the current codes for a 2309 (and presumably 2310 when they load that in)? Just trying to figure out the best starting point. Thanks in advance!

All Denon models use the same codes so it doesn't matter which model number you use. The advantage of starting out with "AVR 3808CI" as your device name is:

1. the Harmony database gives you a ton of codes when you select "AVR 3808CI" so you have plenty of control (for example discrete speaker volumes for all channels, lots of discrete input commands, etc)

2. I have gone through and tested every command in the 3808CI database so you don't have to play guessing games trying to get your Harmony programmed correctly, you can just check my spreadsheet if you want to know what something does

I haven't checked any 2010 models, but as of recently there weren't any Audyssey commands for Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume.

It only takes a couple of minutes to load a new device onto your Harmony account, the way I figured this out was just by testing out various Denon AVR numbers and glancing through the databases. I'll check out some of the new numbers and see if there's anything new, but again it doesn't really matter which one you use. If you want to start with "AVR 2310CI" and then just add the extra commands that you want from my database, that works fine too...

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post #84 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 11:06 AM
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I don't own this receiver yet, but am strongly considering it. I've spent a lot of time with the manual, but something is still unclear to me regarding analog video and audio busses.

I have a standard def hard-drive/DVD recorder with S-video and analog audio inputs. I want to have all of my sources - Cable Box, Blu-Ray, etc. - be easily routable to this unit.

Most of my sources will be connected with HDMI connections, and I know that this receiver does not bus HDMI to the analog outputs. So my plan would be to additionally connect all HDMI sources with analog connections: Cable Box and Blu-Ray with component, VHS with S-video, etc. All sources with stereo analog audio.

If I select, say, Cable Box, can this receiver be set to automatically route the HDMI to my display and the analog output to my DVR?

Anyone with experience doing this with this receiver or other similar Denons?
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post #85 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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yes, as long as:

(1) everything is aligned correctly in terms of coordinating the input names
(2) your devices can simultaneously output video/audio from analog outputs in addition to HDMI

it's the same principle for routing analog stereo audio to Zone 2 (since multizone is analog only). You just "double connect" with multiple formats and the Denon will route it where it needs to go.

So, for example, if your cable box is connected with HDMI and assigned to the "SAT/CBL" input name, then you would double-connect with composite video+audio to the "SAT/CBL" inputs. When you select "SAT/CBL", it will default to the highest quality (HDMI) format for normal display to the monitor. But for Zone 2 outputs or REC OUT outs, it will automatically take the composite connection that is associated with the same name (as you say, the analog video section is on a different bus and will be able to operate separately from the HDMI inputs).

Unfortunately..... you have one major stumbling block in your plan and that is that legacy video support has been crippled in the new models. Check out the image of the back of the 2310CI. The 2310/890 model only has THREE composite/s-video input options on the rear -- SAT/CBL, VCR, and DVR -- and these are non-assignable, so you will not be able to route more than three devices to your SD recorder. You have a fourth option with the front panel V-AUX input as well.

You may want to consider stepping up to either the 3310CI, or grabbing a model from the outgoing year (e.g. 2809CI) which will have much more flexible legacy video support.

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post #86 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 12:30 PM
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Hello all,
I did a search and didn't find any definitive answers. Does this model support HDMI switching with a Tivo HD? Thanks Dave
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post #87 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Unfortunately..... you have one major stumbling block in your plan and that is that legacy video support has been crippled in the new models. Check out the image of the back of the 2310CI. The 2310/890 model only has THREE composite/s-video input options on the rear -- SAT/CBL, VCR, and DVR -- and these are non-assignable, so you will not be able to route more than three devices to your SD recorder. You have a fourth option with the front panel V-AUX input as well.

Batpig,

Thanks for your insight - very helpful.

Follow-up question You mention only three analog inputs (not counting the front panel) that could be routed to my recorder - SAT/CBL, VCR, and DVR. But what about the DVD input (component only)? Wouldn't that give me a fourth analog device that could be routed to the S-video output, or will the component only output through the component output, not the S-video?

I may strongly consider something like the 889 if not Stepping up to 3310CI is outside my budget.

Thank you again.
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post #88 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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check out the video conversion chart and the accompanying notes on pg 9 of the manual.

it actually WILL convert component video inputs to S-vid/composite output, but (referencing the note on the right, and the footnote on the chart of what the black arrow means) it will ONLY do it with 480i input signals. So, while you would have to set your DVD player to 480i output (i.e. turn "progressive scan" off), it should work fine. Your plan may have more legs than I originally thought, as you technically now have FIVE rear-input options which could be routed to the S-vid/composite outputs of the AVR.

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post #89 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


Your plan may have more legs than I originally thought, as you technically now have FIVE rear-input options which could be routed to the S-vid/composite outputs of the AVR.

Regarding that fifth input - the DVR input - there's a composite input labeled that, and also a component input labeled that. Do you think that two separate analog devices can be connected to these, or do they share the same analog bus?
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post #90 of 7245 Old 07-09-2009, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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component inputs are fully assignable, so you can "map" them to any input source "name" you want.

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