*OFFICIAL* Denon AVR 2310CI / 890 Owner's Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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you should probably check out some Onkyo owner's threads, as they (I believe on 70X and up) are the only models that offer both THX processing and Audyssey. There is probably plenty of discussion on whether people prefer THX processing.

However, you should know that even on these Onkyo models the THX thing is not mutually exclusive with Audyssey. You seem to be conflating many different things (Audyssey room correction vs. THX post processing vs. THX amp certification etc.) You would STILL start with MultEQ room correction, as the EQ filters it creates are really separate from "post processing" items.

For example, on an Onkyo if you have THX RE-EQ turned off, you will be on the "Audyssey" EQ curve which introduces a slight roll-off. If you turn on "RE-EQ", the Onkyo automatically switches to the "Flat" Audyssey curve so you do not get a "double roll-off" of the high freq's. The fact that you are using THX post-processing does not exclude you also using the MultEQ room correction as your "starting point".

On the other hand, a "loudness" correction system like THX "Loudness Plus" is an either/or thing vs Audyssey Dynamic EQ. You use one or the other.

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post #122 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 02:48 PM
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For anyone that don't have a Harmony remote, Amazon has the Harmony 670 (Refurbished) for 34.99. This would go nice with the 2310/890 (deal may not last long).
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post #123 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 02:57 PM
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I have blu-ray player connected to HDMI 1, Mac Mini to HDMI 4, then HDMI out to TV. I get the volume change overlay when Mac Mini is selected but not when blu-ray is selected. I've been all through the manual and setting but can't find anything to explain this, so I need help.
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post #124 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 03:15 PM
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Does anyone know if the OSD GUI is the same on the 2310 and 3310?

Thanks!
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post #125 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe you may have to have VIDEO CONVERT set to ON to enable the GUI overlay.... it's probably something either with that or the i/p scaler setting.

Also check the GUI settings (MANUAL SETUP > OPTION SETUP), see pg 33-34 of the manual..... although these settings are GLOBAL so it wouldn't explain why it's working on one input and not on the other. I bet it's something with the convert / scaling settings (which are set BY INPUT).

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post #126 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I believe you may have to have VIDEO CONVERT set to ON to enable the GUI overlay.... it's probably something either with that or the i/p scaler setting.

That was it! Thank you again. I can't tell you how many times I went through those settings. I was concentrating on the i/p scaler setting which was off for both. So, do you know whether having video convert on messes with the video other than adding the volume overlay? Looking at page 9 I'm guessing no, but I have to confidence that I'm interpreting it correctly.
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post #127 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Video Conversion = turning on/off the Denon's ability to convert one type of signal into another. e.g. converting component video input to HDMI output. It is a separate thing from the SCALING functions, which are handled by the ABT chip.

So, having "Video Conversion" turned ON with "i/p Scaler" OFF means that the Denon can cross-convert formats, but it will do zero processing to it. So everything will go out at the exact same resolution it came in.

I don't actually understand why this affects the GUI overlay... perhaps the GUI graphics are generated in the analog domain and with CONVERSION disabled they disappear

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post #128 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 08:54 PM
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I just jumped on the 6th ave deal too and ordered up a 2310. Thanks for the info!
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post #129 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 10:12 PM
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So I ran the full Aud. setup today. My first conclusion was that the sound volume was WAY too low still. I had to crank the volume on my bluray to around -15 on reference, or about 75 on relative, to hear it decently (HDMI). Xbox wasn't much louder (optical). I figured I had two choices. First, go into the settings and manually change the db correction on each speaker by bumping them all up an equal amount (settings were all around -6.5 to -5.0 db), but I figured that would "disable" Audyssey. So, I went into the input level correction and bumped the digital input level ALL the way up (max +12) and that at least made the overal volume more reasonable. Now "normal" volume is around -40 reference or 50 relative. Still way "lower" than my old Kenwood I just sold, but a bunch better. NOT happy having to "crutch" it to make it work though.

The bitter icing on the crummy cake is the Aud. Dynamix EQ. What rubbish. Playing Fallout 3 on the xbox, with Dyn EQ enabled (Dyn Vol disabled), about 75% of the sound came out of the surround speakers. For example, if someone was speaking up in front of me, they would barely be heard, but my footsteps and gun noises were super loud from the side surround speakers. Also if I spoke to someone right in front of me, the voice was very loud through the surround speakers and nothing from the fronts. Very dissapointed and had to turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ for it to be anywhere close to proper. FYI I did record 6 "seating locations" with the mic, and I did the calibration properly. Not happy and not really comfortable with this setup. Makes me miss my Kenwood VR-6070.

Any obvious options or potential problems to correct. Can't believe I have to fight the stupid reciever and first bump it to max +12 on input level and then cancel out the Audyssey just to have decent sound.
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post #130 of 7220 Old 07-10-2009, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Now "normal" volume is around -40 reference or 50 relative. Still way "lower" than my old Kenwood I just sold, but a bunch better. NOT happy having to "crutch" it to make it work though.

hate to break it to you, but it "worked" the whole time and the only thing you changed was the number on the display. apparently you developed some irrational fixation about making the number on the display meet some arbitrary standard you have in your head...

the problem is you have now thrown Dynamic EQ out of whack; had you read my FAQ you would have seen that the reason the volume is the way it is, which is that Audyssey calibrates your volume dial so "0" is equal to the specified reference volume which films are mastered to. Listening at -15dB is actually fairly normal.

Quote:


I figured I had two choices.

actually you had another choice, which was to do nothing and simply TURN UP THE VOLUME


Quote:


The bitter icing on the crummy cake is the Aud. Dynamix EQ. What rubbish. Playing Fallout 3 on the xbox, with Dyn EQ enabled (Dyn Vol disabled), about 75% of the sound came out of the surround speakers.

First, Dynamic EQ is known to cause issues with certain video games that are mastered with heavy surround content. It is really intended for film / TV content, which again is mastered to that known reference point; video games are mastered to all sorts of wacky levels. Many people choose not to disable Dynamic EQ with certain content (e.g. music, video games, occasional badly mastered TV shows). There is no harm in simply turning it off when it isn't making things sound better.

Second, with your obsession for changing the number on the volume dial, as I mention above you have whacked out the balance of Dynamic EQ which is making the problem worse. Dynamic EQ is assuming that "0" is the reference volume, and the lower the volume goes the more aggressively it attempts to boost the bass and surrounds to maintain the tonal balance.

This creates twin problems, (1) because now you are listening at -40 when you SHOULD BE at -15, you are getting much more "boost" than you should be and (2) the "reference" tonal balance which Dynamic EQ is trying to maintain is what it would sound like if the volume was at +20 or so!! This is almost certainly exacerbating the problems (although certain video games will still be problematic).

So.... take a step back, return the input source level settings and speaker channel levels back the way they were, and pop in a good movie to judge how you enjoy the sound of Dynamic EQ. And don't worry if the volume says "-10" when you are doing it!

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post #131 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

hate to break it to you, but it "worked" the whole time and the only thing you changed was the number on the display. apparently you developed some irrational fixation about making the number on the display meet some arbitrary standard you have in your head...

the problem is you have now thrown Dynamic EQ out of whack; had you read my FAQ you would have seen that the reason the volume is the way it is, which is that Audyssey calibrates your volume dial so "0" is equal to the specified reference volume which films are mastered to. Listening at -15dB is actually fairly normal.

OK, that makes sense. But, to help explain where I'm coming from, I don't think I have a fixation with an arbitrary volume number just for the heck of it. It comes from two things. First, if I have to have it at -15 to be a fairly normal sound level, then things really don't get powerfully loud even at max volume.(really talking music here...no need to have a movie be deafening ) With a setup like mine with speakers that can handle massive power, I should have blood pouring out of my ears at max volume on a receiver with a decent amount of juice like this one. Second, with starting to be audible around -40 or so, it seems like a total "waste" of volume range from -85 to -40. It's basically silence. Does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

actually you had another choice, which was to do nothing and simply TURN UP THE VOLUME

First, Dynamic EQ is known to cause issues with certain video games that are mastered with heavy surround content. It is really intended for film / TV content, which again is mastered to that known reference point; video games are mastered to all sorts of wacky levels. Many people choose not to disable Dynamic EQ with certain content (e.g. music, video games, occasional badly mastered TV shows). There is no harm in simply turning it off when it isn't making things sound better.

Second, with your obsession for changing the number on the volume dial, as I mention above you have whacked out the balance of Dynamic EQ which is making the problem worse. Dynamic EQ is assuming that "0" is the reference volume, and the lower the volume goes the more aggressively it attempts to boost the bass and surrounds to maintain the tonal balance.

This creates twin problems, (1) because now you are listening at -40 when you SHOULD BE at -15, you are getting much more "boost" than you should be and (2) the "reference" tonal balance which Dynamic EQ is trying to maintain is what it would sound like if the volume was at +20 or so!! This is almost certainly exacerbating the problems (although certain video games will still be problematic).

So.... take a step back, return the input source level settings and speaker channel levels back the way they were, and pop in a good movie to judge how you enjoy the sound of Dynamic EQ. And don't worry if the volume says "-10" when you are doing it!

This is helpful to me and makes sense, ESPECIALLY the bolded part! First, it makes sense that some games may not be a perfect fit, and second, the boosting effect (the bolded part). First, I'll try knocking the +12 back down to 0 on the level adjustment and, like you said, just turning the volume waaaaaaaay up to get to a normal listening level, and see if Dyn EQ sounds any better with the game. Then I'll try it on with a movie where it makes more sense that it would work well, again at +0 level adjustment. If it doesn't seem to fit well with the Xbox, but it does with the movie, then if I understand how it's operating correctly, the 890 will "remember" to keep Dyn EQ OFF when set the input to "Xbox (Opt 1 TV)" and it would "remember" to have it ON when set to DVD, right?

Thanks again. Feel free to help clear me up on the top response especially though.
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post #132 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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ezat -- sorry if I came off a little harsh BTW it was late when I posted...

Quote:


With a setup like mine with speakers that can handle massive power, I should have blood pouring out of my ears at max volume on a receiver with a decent amount of juice like this one.

A volume of "0" (reference) should be REALLY LOUD in most people's rooms for most content, although the perception of "loudness" is going to be dependent on your preferences, your room acoustics, etc. let's get down to some basics -- what are your speakers and how big is your room?

Quote:


with starting to be audible around -40 or so, it seems like a total "waste" of volume range from -85 to -40. It's basically silence. Does that make sense?

that is actually somewhat normal because the volume scale is going to be logarithmic -- on my setup, -50 is about the lowest I can be and have any sort of audibility. Now, it shouldn't be literal silence at -40, but it's normal if it's very soft. If you google up a "decibel scale" online (there are many with different examples) you can see that a 40 dB change is like the difference between a whisper and a vacuum cleaner...

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post #133 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

ezat -- sorry if I came off a little harsh BTW it was late when I posted......

No prob. I was impressed you replied that late (2:30am here)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

A volume of "0" (reference) should be REALLY LOUD in most people's rooms for most content, although the perception of "loudness" is going to be dependent on your preferences, your room acoustics, etc. let's get down to some basics -- what are your speakers and how big is your room?

Well, 0 is decently loud, but not redicoulous...by that could just be MHO. The room is about 17 x 13. The front speakers are the big JBL Studio S412pII guys. Stats:
4-Way
Floorstanding Speaker
built-in 200 Watt
Powered Woofer
Recommended Power
10 - 250 Watts Per Channel
Frequency Response
32Hz - 20kHz
Impedance 8 Ohms

The center is JBL Studio S Center II. Stats:
3-Way Dual 5 ¼ Center Channel Loudspeaker
Recommended Power
10 - 150 Watts Per Channel
Frequency Response
75Hz - 20kHz
Impedance 8 Ohms

And surrouds are the JBL Studio series wall mountable guys...I forget their product ID, but it's in the same family as above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

that is actually somewhat normal because the volume scale is going to be logarithmic -- on my setup, -50 is about the lowest I can be and have any sort of audibility. Now, it shouldn't be literal silence at -40, but it's normal if it's very soft. If you google up a "decibel scale" online (there are many with different examples) you can see that a 40 dB change is like the difference between a whisper and a vacuum cleaner...

That sound about right I guess. -50 I barely hear anything if anything at all.

One thing I need to add. Last night I did not realize that I actually set the BluRay's input to the +12 db on the input level adjustment. NOT the Xbox's input (didn't think about them being seperate at the time). So, what I said a few posts back was false....so the Dynamix EQ was not being made to perform poorly due to the inflated input level. It must just be Fallout 3 sounds odd with Dynamic EQ. I will see how the surrounds do with Dynamic EQ with a movie from the BluRay (now set back to +0 db) tonight.

Thanks
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post #134 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 09:43 AM
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Also, the example of the OSD status display (on p. 10) when you change inputs is a little odd. Does it show the input name as well as the audio input signal type (doesn't seem to show these in the example screenshot)?

Can anyone describe to me what it shows if you switch to the DVD input when it is playing Dolby Digital, for example? Also reading through the manual I don't see a shortcut to the "status" display in the setup menus accessible from the remote (I see a button on the front panel but there doesn't seem to be one for the remote).

Also, I have a small LCD that I drive with the svideo output of the AVR. I have to use a zoom mode on this LCD which cuts off part of the bottom and top of the display. Can anyone tell if the volume OSD is right on the bottom edge of the display (I'm trying to figure out if it would be cut off)?

Thanks for any help.
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post #135 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 09:48 AM
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Heya People!

I used to have a 1909, but after the power supply busted 3 times in the last 6 months, I opted to exchange it for a 2310.

New GUI takes some used to (esp. since I have used the 1909 dozens of times already :P), but it's pretty cool.

Biggest difference I find is the volume can be pumped on this reciever (compared to the 1909)!

I have two issues when setting it up:

1) I have a Denon iPod docking station.
- It is attached to the VCR/iPod L/R Audio inputs, and also the same S-Video input, and also hooked into the iPod docking input.
- The iPod input assign is set (by default) to VCR/iPod.

I would like any help on how to tweak the sound quality: I have the sub set to LFE + Main @ 80. I think taking the MultEQ and DynVol off makes it sound better, as well (weird, cuz I loved it with the 1909).

So: When I want to play it loud, I hear a humming when the songs are not being played. Can someone figure out what I could do to get rid of that?

2) I have my PS3 input to the DVD HDMI input.
- Everything appears to work, except that I hear a humming.
- Note: I do not hear a humming from the HDMI 3 input which is hooked up to my ShawPVR.
- I DO hear a little crack/pop/distortion when changing channels, though. I never heard this when changing channels with the 1909.

Thanks for any feedback (besides that annoying humming, heheh).

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post #136 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 02:51 PM
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This is my first experience using Audyssey. Am I correct in assuming that Dynamic EQ should always be left on? Are there any situations where it is best to leave it off? How about Dynamic Volume: under what circumstances is it turned on? Thanks.
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post #137 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 06:21 PM
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I just jumped on the 6th ave deal too and ordered up a 2310. Thanks for the info!


+1.

JChin. Thank you from me as well.
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post #138 of 7220 Old 07-11-2009, 10:13 PM
 
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Thinking about picking one of these up or maybe the 4310. If I go with the 2310, I'll add a 5 ch. amp to give my 3 Sierra-1's a nice boost. I figure that combo costs about the same as the 4310.

All I'm after is Audyssey, Dyn. Vol., and volume overlay. I have the ABT 2010 in my OPPO for sd dvd scaling purposes.

Does anyone think the better processing abilities and dacs of the 4310 would be worth having over what the 2310 has? I'm mostly a movie/tv watching person.
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post #139 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dan711 View Post

Thinking about picking one of these up or maybe the 4310. If I go with the 2310, I'll add a 5 ch. amp to give my 3 Sierra-1's a nice boost. I figure that combo costs about the same as the 4310.

All I'm after is Audyssey, Dyn. Vol., and volume overlay. I have the ABT 2010 in my OPPO for sd dvd scaling purposes.

Does anyone think the better processing abilities and dacs of the 4310 would be worth having over what the 2310 has? I'm mostly a movie/tv watching person.

The 2310 does not have any preouts. You would not be able to use an external amp with it. You have to step up to the 3310 for preouts.

James T. Silence

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post #140 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:08 AM
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Batpig- It looks like the codes included in the default 3808 have changed since your excellent command reference. The default now includes a bunch of handy ones that you had gotten them to add manually (like RoomEQ, Return, Restorer). However, it looks like they've reduced the amount of controls at the same time, removing most speaker control and all surround controls.

As a test I just loaded the 2309ci as a device and it has the speaker and surround controls, but doesn't have RoomEQ, Return, Restorer and others. Still no audyssey controls as well. I may need to call them and see if they can mash the two together and create a 2310ci?

It does have discrete A and B speakers though which is good for me. I'm using "B" speakers instead of Zone 2 because all of my sources are HDMI, so I'm setting it up so that my daughter can watch a show from the DVR (via component straight into the TV) while we listen to music on the "B" speakers in the other room.
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post #141 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

Why such a HUGE discount on a newly released Denon ???

It's the economy.

Not really. AVR's have about a 50-75% markup so there is still plenty of room for profit. 6Ave was selling the 2808 (MSRP $1099) for just $799 when it was first released 2 years ago. 6Ave will run these discounts from time to time, you just have to wait for it to hit again if it ends.

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post #142 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95se View Post

It does have discrete A and B speakers though which is good for me. I'm using "B" speakers instead of Zone 2 because all of my sources are HDMI, so I'm setting it up so that my daughter can watch a show from the DVR (via component straight into the TV) while we listen to music on the "B" speakers in the other room.

Both at that same time though? Simply adding a RCA cable from the DVR and using Zone 2 you could listen to music at the same time she's watching TV.

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post #143 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronaks View Post

Does anyone know if the OSD GUI is the same on the 2310 and 3310?

Thanks!

Until you get a more definitive answer from either Denon or someone that has actually seen the two GUI's, in reviewing the respective Owner's Manuals, although the 3310 "manual" is much more graphical in it's depiction of the GUI, it would appear that they are both the same.

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post #144 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan711 View Post

All I'm after is Audyssey, Dyn. Vol., and volume overlay.

If you could do without the volume overlay, the 2809 would be your best bet as it offers the Audyssey features Dyn Vol and EQ, with MultiEQ XT (just as the 4310) and the pre-outs you would require for roughly 1/2 the cost of a 4310.

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post #145 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:49 AM
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"Both at that same time though? Simply adding a RCA cable from the DVR and using Zone 2 you could listen to music at the same time she's watching TV."

Just about everything we'd be listening to in the other room is played off of the HTPC (my mp3s, pandora, slacker, etc) and if I run RCA from my speaker out (3.5mm) I'd need to go on the PC and switch it's output (can't drive HDMI and Analog speakers at same time) and sound quality is pretty bad. I might eventually go the 3.5mm->RCA route for Zone2 outside, but having to go on the PC and change the output is a PITA.
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post #146 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 05:54 AM
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Anyone know what I might be missing? I'm not getting audio via HDMI pass through when the AVR is powered off. I'm getting video fine though. I'm trying to find anything in the manual, but you've all seen that... What I'm shooting for is that the denon will drive the audio when it's on and pass it through when it's off.
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post #147 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95se View Post

Just about everything we'd be listening to in the other room is played off of the HTPC (my mp3s, pandora, slacker, etc) and if I run RCA from my speaker out (3.5mm) I'd need to go on the PC and switch it's output (can't drive HDMI and Analog speakers at same time) and sound quality is pretty bad. I might eventually go the 3.5mm->RCA route for Zone2 outside, but having to go on the PC and change the output is a PITA.

I was actually referring to using the DVR for your Zone 2 source, also using (2) composite video cables, one from the DVR to the 2310 and another from the Zone 2 video out jack to the TV. You'd also have to get an A/B speaker switch to select your mains for either MAIN or Zone 2 use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 95se View Post

Anyone know what I might be missing? I'm not getting audio via HDMI pass through when the AVR is powered off. I'm getting video fine though. I'm trying to find anything in the manual, but you've all seen that... What I'm shooting for is that the denon will drive the audio when it's on and pass it through when it's off.

As bad as the 2310 manual might be, the 2010 manuals are much improved over last year's manuals. Just to confirm ... do you have HDMI Control = ON, Standby Source set to whatever HDMI jack the HDMI source is plugged in to, and HDMI Audio Out = AMP?

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post #148 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jtsilence View Post

The 2310 does not have any preouts. You would not be able to use an external amp with it. You have to step up to the 3310 for preouts.

Can't believe I forgot to look at that. Thanks for the heads up.
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post #149 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Not really. AVR's have about a 50-75% markup so there is still plenty of room for profit. 6Ave was selling the 2808 (MSRP $1099) for just $799 when it was first released 2 years ago. 6Ave will run these discounts from time to time, you just have to wait for it to hit again if it ends.

I don't remember the economy being all that much better 2 years ago ... some people were just choosing to ignore it.
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post #150 of 7220 Old 07-12-2009, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ezatnova View Post

Well, 0 is decently loud, but not redicoulous...by that could just be MHO. The room is about 17 x 13. The front speakers are the big JBL Studio S412pII guys. Stats:
4-Way
Floorstanding Speaker
built-in 200 Watt
Powered Woofer
Recommended Power
10 - 250 Watts Per Channel
Frequency Response
32Hz - 20kHz
Impedance 8 Ohms

The center is JBL Studio S Center II. Stats:
3-Way Dual 5 ¼ Center Channel Loudspeaker
Recommended Power
10 - 150 Watts Per Channel
Frequency Response
75Hz - 20kHz
Impedance 8 Ohms

And surrouds are the JBL Studio series wall mountable guys...I forget their product ID, but it's in the same family as above.

well, loudness is somewhat subjective, as you say "not ridiculously loud" is going to vary from person to person. The JBL's are fairly efficient (and all of your speaker channel levels were set negative, right? which is what you would expect with big, efficient speakers) so don't be afraid to crank it up.

Also, consider that the amps in this Denon may be a lot cleaner than your old Kenwood. Distortion greatly increases the perception of "loudness" as your ears start to hurt earlier -- Denon's amps are rated with very low distortion figures so it's possible that you could just be hearing cleaner sound so, even though the absolute volume may be just as loud, you don't perceive it as such.

I experienced this firsthand a couple of weeks ago when I upgraded my friend's setup from an old entry-level Yamaha receiver to a much more powerful, newer, mid-level type Yamaha. With the old receiver, if you cranked it too far it was painful, everything sounded harsh and distorted. With the new receiver, we were listening to music to test out and I just cranked it up really loud, and it sounds so clean we didn't even realize how loud it was.... until my friend turned to me to say something and we realized we had to basically be shouting to hear each other.

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