Denon AVR-4810CI/AVR-4810 w/ 9.3ch, Dolby PLIIz/Audyssey DSX, October 09- - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-01-2009, 09:13 PM
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Thanks for the screen shots. Looks really nice. And so convenient to use the iphone as a universal remote.
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:01 AM
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I posted this in another Denon thread but since there's been speculation about the AVP-CIX here:

I emailed Jeff Talmadge, director of product development for Denon NA about availability of the AVP-CIX. Here's his reply:

"That project is on hold till next summer at the earliest, sorry to inform you."

Bad news for me as my AVR recently died and I likely would have bought this if were going to be available soon.
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Old 10-02-2009, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konoyaro View Post

I posted this in another Denon thread but since there's been speculation about the AVP-CIX here:

I emailed Jeff Talmadge, director of product development for Denon NA about availability of the AVP-CIX. Here's his reply:

"That project is on hold till next summer at the earliest, sorry to inform you."

Bad news for me as my AVR recently died and I likely would have bought this if were going to be available soon.

Ouch! Sorry to hear about your AVR dying and 'double ouch' to Denon's news. I purchased a 4810 on Tuesday and plan to use it as a pre-pro for a Denon POA. That decision is looking better-er & better-er.

"Life is short...play hard"
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Old 10-02-2009, 08:47 AM
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Film...

I wish I had your AVR budget!

Several of us sitting here with the very nice and more than acceptable 3808's have been asking about value of upgrading, etc. The 4310's look great and as you have concluded it appears to be the value/performance champion. In the same way given the options in the market at the time the 3808 was a great value. But dang, how to justify the expense when the 3808's are hardly impaired?

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Old 10-02-2009, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Film...

I wish I had your AVR budget!

Several of us sitting here with the very nice and more than acceptable 3808's have been asking about value of upgrading, etc. The 4310's look great and as you have concluded it appears to be the value/performance champion. In the same way given the options in the market at the time the 3808 was a great value. But dang, how to justify the expense when the 3808's are hardly impaired?

It's an ever changing game, isn't it.

The differences I found have to do with the quality of the video processor and the "tuning" of the audio section.. in terms of audio, in my room, it's better than the 4308 and it's really close to the 5308... as far as video, I think the ABT 2010 is such a step up from what has been offered in the past, and it won't get much better than this (and I'm only using it for de-interlacing 1080i from my X-Box 360 and DirecTv HR20.)

I don't think there will be a difference in video quality at these price points any more, and it will be tougher for companies to tier the line as far as video goes with the ABT solution out there... I think we've reached a plateau.

With all that being said, I don't think there is a great reason to upgrade from a recent (i.e. xx08 series Denon's, x900/Z7 series Yamha's) AVR you are happy with at this time if you don't need the new features like PLIIz and/or DSX, or a better video solution.... there is nothing deficient with those products.

As much as I rallied against the need for HDMI 1.3a (which in the end gives me one feature I can't live without in the future (HDMI CEC) which lets me pass through HDMI to my TV when the AVR is off)), I do think HDMI 1.4 is going to be important for the industry as they try and make in home 3-D a reality...

At the end of next year is when I'll start sniffing around again...

Unless I pop for an AVP before then.
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Unless I pop for an AVP before then.

That won't stop you...
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:26 PM
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I have a Denon 4810 on order, and I am trying to map out my speaker configuration to take advantage of the new audio channel options. I will not be using Zones at all - everything focused in one room. I have a combination of 13 speakers (plus sub) all Definitive Technology (7 for the front area: center, left, right, wide left, wide right, high left, high right), then I have 6 speakers toward the rear of my room: surround left A, surround right A, surround left B, surround right B, surround back left, surround back right.

I realize the 4810 has 9 Amps with 3 (I believe) assignable. My question is how best to use the 13 speakers for home theater movie use to get the best soundstage?

Thanks,

Raybo

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Old 10-02-2009, 12:46 PM
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Raybo -- you are going to be pushing this to the limits it will probably be a process of discovery but this is how I think it will work:

First off, in order to do 11-ch mode you will need a 2-ch amp to power the "wide" speakers. Since you have 13 speakers, it would probably be best to also add a 2-ch amp for the Front L/R also. So you would want a 4- or 5-ch external amp to power the front L/R and wide L/R (and the center also if you get a 5-ch amp).

Quote:


9 Amps with 3 (I believe) assignable

actually, from what I can tell they are ALL assignable! you can put the receiver in "Free Assign" mode (check out pg 40 of the manual). In combination with the external amp above (powering FL/FR, WL/WR, and possibly C), you can then reassign the 8 internal amps to power height, surround A+B, and surround back speakers. The 4810CI doesn't use the "Surround A+B" configuration any more, but I think you can use "free assign" to accomplish this by assigning four amps to power the SURR L/R channels.

the 5308CI also had a "free assign" mode so hopefully owner can chime in, but from what I can tell from the manual this is how it would work:

- FL/FR, WL/WR (and C optionally) pre-outs to external amp for front 4 (or 5) speakers
- "Free Assign" the internal FL/FR amps to power SURR L/R (for Surr. A)
- Leave the SURR L/R amps as is (for Surr B)
- Use the S.BACK L/R amps as is (for Surr. Back)
- Use the Height/Wide amps to power HEIGHT L/R

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Old 10-02-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post

I have a Denon 4810 on order, and I am trying to map out my speaker configuration to take advantage of the new audio channel options. I will not be using Zones at all - everything focused in one room. I have a combination of 13 speakers (plus sub) all Definitive Technology (7 for the front area: center, left, right, wide left, wide right, high left, high right), then I have 6 speakers toward the rear of my room: surround left A, surround right A, surround left B, surround right B, surround back left, surround back right.

I realize the 4810 has 9 Amps with 3 (I believe) assignable. My question is how best to use the 13 speakers for home theater movie use to get the best soundstage?

Thanks,

Raybo

Creator (with a small "c") of the Teleman HiPix DTV 200

I would use LCR,wide left,wide right, surround A and B right wired together(same channel) surround A and B left wired together(same channel) and surround back right and surround back left. I read some where that you get a lot more affect from the wides than the front highs.

ED
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:57 PM
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batpig,

Thanks very much for your post. I really enjoy reading your Manuals, and website. I HOPE you will do a Manual similar to the one you did on the 4310, for us who own the 4810, as you really made it easy to understand. All these "assignable" Amps, etc. will get confusing to a lot of folks!

If the limitation was to use JUST the 9 Amps in the 4810, and with my "13.1" potential choices, how would you combine / matrix these speakers for maximum acoustic benefit. For example, would you put Surround left A+B on the same binding posts, as well as Surround right A+B on the same posts? Do you see what I am getting at? I understand that front left Wide and front right Wide ARE very important, so I certainly want to assign Amps to them, as well as Amps to the left / right High speaker pair.

Raybo
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:06 PM
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I HOPE you will do a Manual similar to the one you did on the 4310, for us who own the 4810, as you really made it easy to understand.

spot me 3 grand and I'd be happy to oblige

failing that, you will have to settle for me learning vicariously through you guys


Quote:


If the limitation was to use JUST the 9 Amps in the 4810, and with my "13.1" potential choices, how would you combine / matrix these speakers for maximum acoustic benefit.

you can't really do it, other than double-wiring the surround A+B. the amp will only function in "11 channel" mode with an external amp powering the "wide" channels. Without an external amp you are explicitly limited to 9 channels of processing, so you would have to sacrifice either the wides or the height.

why not add an external amp though? If you are already dropping that much coin on a powerhouse AVR, and going to the trouble of installing 13 (!) speakers, why not take this bad boy to the finish line and do it right? An Emotiva XPA-5 would be a (relatively) inexpensive add-on and you would be able to go nuts with all 13 speakers, no problem.

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Old 10-02-2009, 01:46 PM
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batpig,

The 13 speakers are already installed in the walls, in the entertainment center cabinet, etc. A combination of CLR3000 center, CLR2002s for the front Left and Right, plus 10 in-walls for the Wides, Heights, and Surrounds. To drive the Wides with a 2-channel Amp, can you recommend a more compact Amp?

I have both a space and heat dissipation problem to deal with in the entertainment center, so I want to keep an additional Amp to the absolute minimum. As the Wides are for mostly intermittent sound, wouldn't something like a 100W Amp work?

Raybo
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:00 PM
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Actually, wouldn't the Surround Backs be used the least (except maybe in the movie Gladiator DTS-EX), so I would want to assign the (better) Amps in the 4810 to all of the Front and other Surround channels which get used more frequently, and use the smaller external Amp for the Surround Backs. Correct?

Raybo
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:09 PM
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batpig, did u get my PM about AFDM? was wondering if that issue is "resolved" by the 4810 series =P

to the edge of eternity and depth of infinity, stupidity knows no bound.
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post

Actually, wouldn't the Surround Backs be used the least (except maybe in the movie Gladiator DTS-EX), so I would want to assign the (better) Amps in the 4810 to all of the Front and other Surround channels which get used more frequently, and use the smaller external Amp for the Surround Backs. Correct?

Raybo

Unless your external amp is rather small, like the Gizmo, it's going to have a better power supply and more power than the receiver. So you'd want to run your mains and center off it.
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:57 PM
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batpig, did u get my PM about AFDM? was wondering if that issue is "resolved" by the 4810 series =P

no, I don't think so but I'll check.

I won't be much help with anything related to AFDM as I only run 5.1, I only have a vague "theoretical" understanding of how that's supposed to work on a 7.1 setup.

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Old 10-02-2009, 05:57 PM
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Film....

It would be nice if any of the improvements in the firmware of these new models could be ported to the recent but now last years models that Denon would actually do so.

If I was thinking adding something for just the ABT chipset I'd probably go for the OPPO 83 before swapping out my receiver.

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Old 10-02-2009, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no, I don't think so but I'll check.

I won't be much help with anything related to AFDM as I only run 5.1, I only have a vague "theoretical" understanding of how that's supposed to work on a 7.1 setup.

Master Batpig,

Did you get a chance to go to the 'Official Aperion speaker' thread and look over my diagram/pics? Wanted to get your critique...

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Old 10-03-2009, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post

Actually, wouldn't the Surround Backs be used the least (except maybe in the movie Gladiator DTS-EX), so I would want to assign the (better) Amps in the 4810 to all of the Front and other Surround channels which get used more frequently, and use the smaller external Amp for the Surround Backs. Correct?

Raybo


No if you use a 13.x setup i would (and so should you) let the unit remap all the sound to them using dsx or some other mode. I agree with the others that adding 2 channel amp to the fronts makes the most sense but if room is a problem a different option would be to place small plate amps at the speakers (maybe in the ceiling or on the back of the 2 fronts).

Fronts would again be best but depends on cost you want to make 2 backs would also be a option.

Just adding a new idea.

Daniel.

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Old 10-04-2009, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I can't speak for the Onkyo.

On the Yamaha Z7, it went directly to the IP web page and was the same as if you were using a computer... it's not as full featured as the Denon's standard "computer" web interface (which pretty much lets you access and customize anything you can do using the GUI, including source names and a much quicker way to set up radio stations and internet radio access....)





The Denon, when you access thru Safari on the iPhone, uses a custom, pared down interface.

I'll see if I can you you a picture of it.. my iPhone is acting up with the WiFi..

I too am very curious to see screenshots from the iPod / iPhone safari browser . (top button + home button for screenshots ....... But I'm sure you know that already )

I set my room up for 9.1 (not counting for wide speakers) so I have these 4 extra mounts and wires on my walls waiting for my denon 4810 ... Might pull the trigger mid-November

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Old 10-04-2009, 11:13 AM
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I guess what I am confused about is the hookup of the Surround "A" left, right and Surround "B" left, right speaker pairs. The only reference to using 2 pairs of Surround speakers (I'm not referring to the Surround Back ones here) is on Page 42 of the Manual where it talks about the manual Distance setting with 13 speakers, (if you add them all up).

With my old Denon 5803 I could set the relative sound level of Surround "A" and Surround "B" speakers separately. So with my 4810, how do I connect the Surround "A" and "B" speakers?

Thanks,

Raybo
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:44 PM
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How are you using the Surrounds A/"B" speakers? In previous setups the Surround B was thought to be used for multi-channel music surround. However, I don't think it was used much for that convention, so it's probably been dropped. It's probably a misprint in the manual, since the priority now seems to be toward the front soundstage.

With the 4810 you're pretty much relegated to set it up as two sets of side surrounds and let the auto setup take care of calibration.
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:57 PM
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AVRat,

In the Denon 5803 the Surrounds A+B gave me a really well dispersed soundfield, and using my Rat Shack SPL meter, I was able to adjust each Surround speaker pair. I have no problem with Audyseey automatically adjusting the sound levels, it is just not clear in the Manual where to attach the Surround "B" speaker pair to the binding posts. There appear to be 13 assignable sets of binding posts on this AVR. I realize there are only 9 Amps, so hence, my confusion.

BTW, the Surround "A" and Surround "B" are mentioned twice on page 42. Also just noticed on FilmMixer's Oct 1 post of the on-screen graphic that Surround "A" and Surround "B" check-marks are displayed. Very confusing!!!

EDIT: If you scroll down a bit on his on-screen graphic under the "Distance" setting, it shows 14 separate speaker distance settings. I am assuming the "SB" one is the Sub-woofer setting, and that then leaves 13 speaker setting options, which include both Surround "A" and Surround "B". So where in the Manual is this all referenced???

Raybo
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quick question.

Interested in the 4810. Its starting to pop up on ebay now for almost a 30% discount off MSRP.

Does denon honor their waranty on all AVRs bought in the USA or does the unit have to be bought from an authorized dealer?

25-30% is a big chunk of change.

Secondly, if it has to be an authorized dealer, Does that cover marketplace orders from amazon?

Thanks
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by General Custer View Post

Quick question.

Interested in the 4810. Its starting to pop up on ebay now for almost a 30% discount off MSRP.

Does denon honor their waranty on all AVRs bought in the USA or does the unit have to be bought from an authorized dealer?

25-30% is a big chunk of change.

Secondly, if it has to be an authorized dealer, Does that cover marketplace orders from amazon?

Thanks

No they don't honor unless from an authorized dealer. And most of the dealers on Amazon Marketplace are not.

Try Axxis Audio..... AVS sponsore, and authorized dealer. Good deals... call or email John Marty for a quote... he might not have them in stock yet, but I'd imagine he could get you one soon.

http://www.axxisaudioinc.com/
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:05 PM
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Where are the reviews? Where is the love?
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Old 10-04-2009, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

No they don't honor unless from an authorized dealer. And most of the dealers on Amazon Marketplace are not.

Try Axxis Audio..... AVS sponsore, and authorized dealer. Good deals... call or email John Marty for a quote... he might not have them in stock yet, but I'd imagine he could get you one soon.

http://www.axxisaudioinc.com/

Then why is this site/dealer not listed on the Denon site as an "authorized online retailer"???

They do not show up, either, as a dealer using the state or zip code search (using 81303or CO).

Their price is lower than what the other sites are depicting which list full retail (but evidently will quote a lower price when contacted directly).

While we are not supposed to talk "price" in these threads, it does appear that Denon is holding consumers "hostage" by not honoring a "manufacturers" warranty but don't seem obligated to keep their products from reaching "non-authorized" distributors and eventually dealers selling to consumers.

This so called "grey" market that exists seems to favor the mfg when it appears that refurbished or discarded units make it back to the low price seeking consumers that get no protection in this exchange.

Since the warranty is very important (especially when a firmware download can "brick" the unit) I am having second thoughts of buying a Denon at all (and I have one now). A friend bought a 788 that had a faulty power supply and did not realize his warranty would be honored because he bought from the lowest price online vendor.

The price delta between "full retail", what someone can negotiate in a "brick and mortar" store, and the "un-authorized" online sellers is fairly wide and significant in some cases. While not actually listing the various amounts or percentages (which goes against forum rules), the point we need to address (IMO) is why any mfg can get away with this practice of selective warranty support.

I have seen this topic pop up within other Denon owner threads but never with any great explanation (as far as I'm concerned).
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:44 AM
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Then why is this site/dealer not listed on the Denon site as an "authorized online retailer"???

They do not show up, either, as a dealer using the state or zip code search (using 81303or CO).

Their price is lower than what the other sites are depicting which list full retail (but evidently will quote a lower price when contacted directly).

While we are not supposed to talk "price" in these threads, it does appear that Denon is holding consumers "hostage" by not honoring a "manufacturers" warranty but don't seem obligated to keep their products from reaching "non-authorized" distributors and eventually dealers selling to consumers.

This so called "grey" market that exists seems to favor the mfg when it appears that refurbished or discarded units make it back to the low price seeking consumers that get no protection in this exchange.

Since the warranty is very important (especially when a firmware download can "brick" the unit) I am having second thoughts of buying a Denon at all (and I have one now). A friend bought a 788 that had a faulty power supply and did not realize his warranty would be honored because he bought from the lowest price online vendor.

The price delta between "full retail", what someone can negotiate in a "brick and mortar" store, and the "un-authorized" online sellers is fairly wide and significant in some cases. While not actually listing the various amounts or percentages (which goes against forum rules), the point we need to address (IMO) is why any mfg can get away with this practice of selective warranty support.

I have seen this topic pop up within other Denon owner threads but never with any great explanation (as far as I'm concerned).

I never understood this practice also. Unless someone is breaking into the Denon warehouse then there shouldn't be a problem with honoring the warranty. It's not like these things are falling off the truck in a back alley. I guess the manufacturers are protecting the "brick and mortar" stores who have huge overhead.


Respectfully,
Willie

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Old 10-05-2009, 11:10 AM
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I don't understand the issue either (I think you're right about protecting certain dealers - and probably price), but it is what it is.

At close to a 30% discount, though (so almost $1k), isn't it almost worth taking the risk of needing repair? Can the repair costs easily get that high? I've never had to get a receiver repaired (knock on wood!). One of the ebay seller is saying the warranty IS available but you have to get your RMA through the seller. Not sure about that one!

Sorry that this is sort of degrading the thread, but we seem to be in a hold mode waiting for those reviews!
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post

AVRat,

In the Denon 5803 the Surrounds A+B gave me a really well dispersed soundfield, and using my Rat Shack SPL meter, I was able to adjust each Surround speaker pair. I have no problem with Audyseey automatically adjusting the sound levels, it is just not clear in the Manual where to attach the Surround "B" speaker pair to the binding posts. There appear to be 13 assignable sets of binding posts on this AVR. I realize there are only 9 Amps, so hence, my confusion.

BTW, the Surround "A" and Surround "B" are mentioned twice on page 42. Also just noticed on FilmMixer's Oct 1 post of the on-screen graphic that Surround "A" and Surround "B" check-marks are displayed. Very confusing!!!

EDIT: If you scroll down a bit on his on-screen graphic under the "Distance" setting, it shows 14 separate speaker distance settings. I am assuming the "SB" one is the Sub-woofer setting, and that then leaves 13 speaker setting options, which include both Surround "A" and Surround "B". So where in the Manual is this all referenced???

Raybo

I also use two sets of side surrounds and a set of surround backs. My room is not wide enough for installing width speakers, so I'll be running the 4810 is 11.2 mode with my four side surrounds, SB's and the "height" speakers. At any rate..I've been reading through the ever cryptic denon manual and I have not been able to find anything that would enable us to set distance and channel level independently for all four side surrounds. I can do this my 3808.

As Batpig suggested, it would appear that Denon has abandoned the dual side surround set up flexibility.

I just need to decide if I am willing to compromise and tie my side surrounds together and live with the distance and channel level's being slightly different.

I hope I'm wrong and the manual is missing some details (which is typical with denon manuals) that would enable us to set up the dual side surrounds independently.
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