Denon AVR-4810CI/AVR-4810 w/ 9.3ch, Dolby PLIIz/Audyssey DSX, October 09- - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

Do you HAVE to use only the Front Wides preouts for the external amp?

Apparently YES......
I'm not sure if there's a work around for this.... I haven't found it,
even with the Free Amp assign.

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post #632 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatball View Post

DC, do you mind provide a little more details of your experiences with AVR-4810 that makes it superior to the Onkyo TX-NR5007 you had previously?

Thanks!

They are both excellent units.
I just prefer the way the Denon looks, the way it feels, the way it's setup, it's GUI, it's configurability and the way it sounds... to that of the 5007.
If not for the 4810, I'd be perfectly happy with the 5007.
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post #633 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 10:56 AM
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I agree. My initial goal was to use the external Amp for the Surround Back speakers, so that the front soundstage of the 11.1 setup would have all been driven by the internal Amps in the 4810. Apparently, doing this will negate use of some of the Audyssey functionality. Bummer!!

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post #634 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofg View Post

Congrats on the Nautilus center! What are you running for mains? I have 703s with an HTM-7, so I get some Nautilus love too

Easy for you to say, to kill the click conversation, since you don't have it!

I pulled the STB from the other room and connected it in lieu of the Tivo. I did it through V. Aux and had to use composite/optical since this box doesn't have HDMI. It also isn't a DVR, so I couldn't do the pausing and such. Nonetheless, when changing channels I do get the clicking with the audio signals changing.

Oh well...maybe we'll figure it out one day. Now to get batpig's codes on my Harmony.

Again, sorry about the clicking. I just chalk it up for circuit design.

I'm glad this thread is getting busy with owners. As for my system, I just got the new B&W HTM3S Center and wow, does it rock! The low mid's and high bass coming from the much bigger center are great, especially for dialogue. I am using 805n's for Left and Right as well as In Wall B&W Surrounds (I can't remember the model but they are a better pair).

I'm enjoying the comments on internal amp usage for 11.1 as I am not yet prepared to run the full 11 speakers. I am currentlly external amping the left and right fronts with Emotiva XPA-1s. Quite a bit of overkill but I am getting ready to replace the fronts with 803S's or possibly 804's. I'll then send the 805's to Front Wide duty and be done. Well I'll need some front heights as well. This week, I'll be settting up temporary front wides and start fiddling.

Here's my thoughts to everyone. We all spent some pretty big bucks on a really slick Receiver, If you are going to drive 11 speakers, why not spring for a good external amp? I will be either adding the new Emotiva XPR-7 or the XPA-5 to bring external amplification to either 9 or 7 Channels. This may seem crazy but the Denon is going to also power a TV over a bar area and an LCD by the pool table (Not yet built out but scheduled for early 2010.

At a minimum, I expect to power all 5 front speakers externally. I'm as confused as everyone else here and am I to understand that this is doable? Did I also read here that the rears have to be powered internally? With three Zones and 11.1, it appears to me that I need to think further than just an additional 2 channels. This receiver is going to be the absolute center of the improved "Man Cave". I may actually run the Zone 4 optical to my old B&K receiver and power the pool room area with that and use a different zone for a little LCD and speakers in the bathroom. Wow, this is one flexible big beast.

The Emotiva XPA-5 is only $800 I think and compared to a $3,000 receiver (OK less if you haggle or internet shop), a pretty low entry point to power and flexibility. One little problem though is the Emotiva's gain is some 4db greater than the Denon's internals. One run through Audyssey though and your good to go.

Does this all sound doable? The manual is pretty hard to figure out.
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post #635 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 11:40 AM
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While the Denon Manual is cryptic, be careful about making certain (common sense) conclusions.

The Manual says if you don't assign an internal Amp to the Front Height speaker pair, you won't be able to employ PLllz. That may not be a big deal to you, but it tends to limit some of the audio options, in my view. Same with the Surround Back speakers and their internal Amp. I need to re-read the Manual several times to fully understand the poor wording, but that is what I conclude so far in the setup process.

Speaking about the "progress" of technology, I just hauled about 100 of my old Laserdiscs out to the trash bin, as there is no used market for these anymore. At about $40.00 per on the stickers, there went about $4000. in the can. Oh well, we had many good years of use from this technology - - and now Blu-ray is here....

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post #636 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post

While the Denon Manual is cryptic, be careful about making certain (common sense) conclusions.

The Manual says if you don't assign an internal Amp to the Front Height speaker pair, you won't be able to employ PLllz. That may not be a big deal to you, but it tends to limit some of the audio options, in my view. Same with the Surround Back speakers and their internal Amp. I need to re-read the Manual several times to fully understand the poor wording, but that is what I conclude so far in the setup process.

Speaking about the "progress" of technology, I just hauled about 100 of my old Laserdiscs out to the trash bin, as there is no used market for these anymore. At about $40.00 per on the stickers, there went about $4000. in the can. Oh well, we had many good years of use from this technology - - and now Blu-ray is here....

Raybo

I make no conclusions. Where exactly, in the manual does it say you have to assign the Heights to internal amps to get PLIIz Cinema to work. Also, where does it say that for the rears. I totally believe you, I just am trying to save a lot of reading. This would affect my purchase of the XPR-7 greatly as I then have to power these zones internally. I want my 11.1!!!

Thanks
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post #637 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I make no conclusions. Where exactly, in the manual does it say you have to assign the Heights to internal amps to get PLIIz Cinema to work. Also, where does it say that for the rears. I totally believe you, I just am trying to save a lot of reading. This would affect my purchase of the XPR-7 greatly as I then have to power these zones internally. I want my 11.1!!!

Thanks

Never mind, I found the PLIIz comment. I'm not exactly sure why this is an issue though as you can't do Audyssey DSX and PLIIz at the same time anyway. You are restricted to either. Also with my considered exterior multi channel amps, either the XPA-5 or XPR-7, I can always assign an internal amp and then just not use it, if I read the manual correctly. Unless I am really missing something a pre-out is a pre-out. I still end up without enough extra channels for Zone 2 and 3.

I guess this argument just shows that you might want an external 5 channel amp over just one additional stereo amp,; if anything just for future flexibility and what if games of speaker connecting late at night.
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post #638 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 05:09 PM
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So, never mind the clicks. I think I've got a serious issue. I hadn't really tried to play with the other zones until tonight. Wasn't even sure how to use them until reading up on it now. With my old Yamaha, I used a Monster switch box that the various rooms connected to (3 additional rooms). That in turn connected to the B connectors on the Yamaha. So, until I rewire the house to move the A/V to a different room soon, I figured I'd just connect the switch box to Zone 2 on the Denon.

I figured out that I have to assign it as +Z2 to ensure an amp is going to that zone. I also figured out that I turn on Zone 2 either by pressing Main on the remote to switch over to Z2, or by using the button on the receiver, left of the display. I set the source for Z2 to "Source" to match the main, and I turned up the volume while the remote was still set to Z2. Nothing. So I tried just connecting a speaker from another zone directly to the Zone 2 connectors, in case something weird was going on with that switch box. Still nothing. Is there anything I could possibly be missing (I hope)!? I'm definitely concerned that something is wrong with the receiver now.
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post #639 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofg View Post

So, never mind the clicks. I think I've got a serious issue. I hadn't really tried to play with the other zones until tonight. Wasn't even sure how to use them until reading up on it now. With my old Yamaha, I used a Monster switch box that the various rooms connected to (3 additional rooms). That in turn connected to the B connectors on the Yamaha. So, until I rewire the house to move the A/V to a different room soon, I figured I'd just connect the switch box to Zone 2 on the Denon.

I figured out that I have to assign it as +Z2 to ensure an amp is going to that zone. I also figured out that I turn on Zone 2 either by pressing Main on the remote to switch over to Z2, or by using the button on the receiver, left of the display. I set the source for Z2 to "Source" to match the main, and I turned up the volume while the remote was still set to Z2. Nothing. So I tried just connecting a speaker from another zone directly to the Zone 2 connectors, in case something weird was going on with that switch box. Still nothing. Is there anything I could possibly be missing (I hope)!? I'm definitely concerned that something is wrong with the receiver now.

What source were you sending to both Zones?
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post #640 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:14 PM
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Source was DVR (Tivo) for both. I tried flipping the source on Zone 2 through everything else as well, and not a peep.
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post #641 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofg View Post

Source was DVR (Tivo) for both. I tried flipping the source on Zone 2 through everything else as well, and not a peep.

I need to check, but I thought the other Zones can only play audio from Analog inputs... did you try that?
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post #642 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:23 PM
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Oh, great point. I do remember reading something about HDMI limitations in that regard, though not in the manual, ironically. I think I saw it in this thread somewhere. I'll bet you're right. I'll try running composite/optical.
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post #643 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Can some with a AVR-4810 please check this in the menus.

With the source assign, can you assign a HDMI slot, or Optical inputs for the Phono input (which I would rename to the component I am using) as it would free up an input as the Phono one does not get used? The manual lists Phono as input that is assignable but in the examples that follow in the manual it wasn't mentioned.

Thanks guys
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post #644 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofg View Post

Source was DVR (Tivo) for both. I tried flipping the source on Zone 2 through everything else as well, and not a peep.

That is the issue. You can only send the internal Tuner, NetRadio, and any analogue inputs to Zone 2. Had the same issues as yourself until I realised this.
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post #645 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I need to check, but I thought the other Zones can only play audio from Analog inputs... did you try that?

Okay. I tried going optical audio and composite for the audio (while keeping HDMI connected, which I assume isn't an issue) and neither makes a difference. Seems like running composite L/R or optical audio from DVR on the receiver to the Tivo would do it, but I guess I'm still doing something wrong.

Then I tried the tuner, and that's working on Zone 2! So, I think I'm just screwing something up. I've just got to figure out how to get a non-HDMI connection going so that I can feed Tivo or PS3 to the other zones.

Thanks, FilmMixer!
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post #646 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

That is the issue. You can only send the internal Tuner, NetRadio, and any analogue inputs to Zone 2. Had the same issues as yourself until I realised this.

Thanks, Spizz. So did you feed a non-radio source to the other zones successfully? And, if so, how?

EDIT: Oh, given your phono question, I guess you don't have one yet.
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post #647 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Can some with a AVR-4810 please check this in the menus.

With the source assign, can you assign a HDMI slot, or Optical inputs for the Phono input (which I would rename to the component I am using) as it would free up an input as the Phono one does not get used? The manual lists Phono as input that is assignable but in the examples that follow in the manual it wasn't mentioned.

Thanks guys

I don't think this is possible, Spizz. I'm playing with the menus and the source select->phono menu only has video, input mode, rename, and source level submenus, unlike, say the DVR menu, which has an input assign menu to change that up. I may be missing something, but I don't think so.
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post #648 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by houseofg View Post

Thanks, Spizz. So did you feed a non-radio source to the other zones successfully? And, if so, how?

Only using the Analog Left Right inputs could I get audio in Zone 2. No HDMI or Optical can be used for Audio in Zone 2.

With the Tivo disconnect the HDMI cable and only connect the Analog RCA for Audio and make sure you get sound from this in your main Zone. If so try switching to Zone 2.
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post #649 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Only using the Analog Left Right inputs could I get audio in Zone 2. No HDMI or Optical can be used for Audio in Zone 2.

With the Tivo disconnect the HDMI cable and only connect the Analog RCA for Audio and make sure you get sound from this in your main Zone. If so try switching to Zone 2.

There's something obvious that I'm not getting, I think. There are no specific source inputs for zone 2, right? So it just means that your source (like my Tivo in this instance) has to have a non-HDMI connection to the receiver, right? And I've tried running an optical and RCA L/R from the Tivo to the relevant DVR inputs on the receiver.

I somehow missed the part about disconnecting the HDMI in your post at first...woops. I'll try that.
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post #650 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofg View Post

There's something obvious that I'm not getting, I think. There are no specific source inputs for zone 2, right? So it just means that your source (like my Tivo in this instance) has to have a non-HDMI connection to the receiver, right? And I've tried running an optical and RCA L/R from the Tivo to the relevant DVR inputs on the receiver.

I somehow missed the part about disconnecting the HDMI in your post at first...woops. I'll try that.

As I said earlier, I'm pretty sure you can only route Analog inputs to the 2nd and 3rd Zones...

The reason it doesn't work with digital inputs is the Denon would have to downmix multi-channel inputs on the fly, which is a tall order....

I do believer, however, you can stream USB and Rhapsody, internet radio, etc...

To select the Zone 2 source, change the remote to Zone 2 pushing the "MAIN" button on the remote.. it will then toggle from Main, Z2, Z3 and Z4.. you can then select the Zone 2 source when the remote is set to Z2 just like the main zone... to get back to the Main Zone just toggle back until you are back in that mode.

OR - Use the web browser interface...
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post #651 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 08:57 PM
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Thanks. Yeah, I've got the controls down. It's just the connections. I tried taking the HDMI input out and going with just the RCA connection, but that's obviously nasty looking, so I'd never stick with that anyway. Not a huge deal. It's just nice to be able to run audio to other rooms if I'm watching a concert or something. For the most part, I would indeed use net radio, a tuner, or something other than Tivo or PS3.
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post #652 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 09:15 PM
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In the manual, there's a free assign mode, which suggests, I ought to be able to
a. assign the front channel speaker output to my Height/Wide/Surround Back
b. use the pre out to my power amps driving L/R

Shouldn't this be the case?
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post #653 of 4067 Old 10-24-2009, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

In the manual, there's a free assign mode, which suggests, I ought to be able to
a. assign the front channel speaker output to my Height/Wide/Surround Back
b. use the pre out to my power amps driving L/R

Shouldn't this be the case?

Yep, Page 40 clearly shows what you can assign out of the Front Speaker Outs. I must also be missing something as well with all the PLIIz comments. Just because I have an internal amp assigned doesn't mean I have to use the internal assigned amp.

Oh well, I won't be trying 9.1 and 11.1 until next weekend anyway. I'm having too much fun with the new center.
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post #654 of 4067 Old 10-25-2009, 04:26 AM
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Hopefully getting my 4810 later this week. Will probably not unhook my Onkyo first but plug the 4810 to my LCD TV in the bedroom and see if the Free Assign mode works as planned.
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post #655 of 4067 Old 10-25-2009, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I make no conclusions. Where exactly, in the manual does it say you have to assign the Heights to internal amps to get PLIIz Cinema to work. Also, where does it say that for the rears.

Never mind, I found the PLIIz comment. I'm not exactly sure why this is an issue though as you can't do Audyssey DSX and PLIIz at the same time anyway. You are restricted to either.

Exactly, PLIIz doesn't use the "wide" channels, max would be 9.1 (7.1+height) so of course you would need to have something internally assigned to "height".

I don't think this is a "limitation" at all beyond what we already knew -- which is that only way to do a full 11-channel setup is to add an external amp for the WIDE channels. This is explicitly noted in the manual on pg 12.

That PLIIz note is just a consequence of that -- by necessity, if you are running 11.1 one of the external amps WILL be assigned to "height" channels.

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post #656 of 4067 Old 10-25-2009, 09:08 AM
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Yeah, I noticed that limitation with PLIIz when looking at the manual yesterday. Once I move everything to my upcoming mancave, I'm pondering going 7.1 since I have the extra B&Ws. I haven't read up on it much yet, but it seems like if you're going to go wide OR height, that wide is the way to go. I know there's no right answer to this, but I get that sense with what I've read thus far. I'll obviously have the amps without needing to go external, but what is the ideal codec for that...if I'm asking this correctly!?

Oh, and, batpig, looks like the discretes have changed too much on the 4810. I can't get to internet radio nor music server via the 5803 + batpigworld codes, unfortunately. Sure hope Logitech gets the damn 4810 codes out soon...before my wife gives up altogether! I'd like to have an activity on the Harmony that mimics the Zone 2/3 remote and that doesn't look like a possibilty at this point.
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post #657 of 4067 Old 10-25-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Oh, and, batpig, looks like the discretes have changed too much on the 4810. I can't get to internet radio nor music server via the 5803 + batpigworld codes, unfortunately.

yeah, well the scope of what I do is generally restricted to the cheaper consumer models. obviously the 4810 is going to have a lot of extra options, you can probably "teach" some of the necessary commands to the Harmony.

Quote:
I'd like to have an activity on the Harmony that mimics the Zone 2/3 remote and that doesn't look like a possibilty at this point.

I intentionally didn't include any codes for Zone 2/3 function in my profile, because the way it works on Harmony's is that you essentially add the 2nd/3rd zone as a separate device. You can add a new Denon AVR device and designate it for Zone 2.

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post #658 of 4067 Old 10-25-2009, 10:21 AM
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Sure. I understand. But it's also just a factor of Denon changing the defined inputs around. I don't think I can have the Harmony learn internet radio or music server since they aren't single buttons, right? And the other approaches Harmony allows (sending "input" successively until you get to the correct source or even the 3 step menu approach) don't seem to apply to this Denon either. There's no defined way of getting to these sources. When you click "Source Select" you get the most recently used sources first. That obviously changes. Or am I not thinking of something? My wife's big things will be to play internet radio or music off of her laptop, so I need to have easy to run activities for those items.

Good point about Zone 2/3 being a different device instead of activity.
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post #659 of 4067 Old 10-25-2009, 11:01 AM
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I just ordered a Harmony 670 from Tiger Direct that is scheduled to arrive here on Oct 28. Do I understand it correctly that I will get 30 days of Support included, and if so, is there anything I can do as a new Harmony customer to entice them to support the AVR4810ci command set?

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post #660 of 4067 Old 10-25-2009, 11:10 AM
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Houeseofg,

Regarding your Zone 2 Audio out issues. I may have a work around here and as it pertains to my addition to the "man cave", here goes.

You can get digital audio out from the 4810 to another zone. This is done by Zone 4, unique to the 4810. It can send a digital optical signal out in 2.1 DD bitstream. Now follow me here, you can then get a TV with HDMI that matckes your main monitor in resolution and send the HDMI out to it, then dust off an older bitstream capable Receiver and feed it the Zone 4 Optical Out. For me, this will allow me to get sound to another LCD TV in the planned Bar/Pool Room area. Now for me, this takes care of Tivo and my main movie source, my HTPC. For Zone 2, I can then hook up the L,R (Speakers or Pre-Out) audio out and have the Tivo feed Analog Audio to the 4810 and this oculd then make it possible for the 4810 to get Audio to the Bathroom little LCD TV and the Bar area LCD. My challenge though, is getting Analog Audio out of the PC and processed by the Receiver to power Zone 2 and Zone 3.

I know I'm thinking out loud here, but I think the only work around here is to use the analog audio out on the PC. It can transmit 7.1 but can't process Dolby True HD or DTS HD (my PC as built today). This means, I would have to feed the Denon with a new internal audio card capable of decoding and sending analog 7.1 out in the new codecs. If I understand this correctly, the 4810 can and will then apply Dolby PLIIz or Audyssey DSX even with analog 7.1 in.

So, houseofg, I think by utilizing Zone 4 with either a secondary bitstream receiver or a TV/Monitor you can get digital audio to another zone. If you then use Zone 2 and Zone 3 for analog zones, you're good to go. Heck, you could use Zone 4 with HDMI and one of the analog zones to the same TV or Receiver if need be. This Zone 4 capability adds a lot of new combinations.

As for me, geez I'm starting to sound like a custom installer, when I am soooooo far from that. Batpig, Filmmixer or anyone else, please shoot holes in my logic at will. It's a lot easier to be lost and confused now as opposed to during and after my attempt to rip up walls, lay wire, and put up new equipment. This is one flexible little bugger.
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