Denon AVR-4810CI/AVR-4810 w/ 9.3ch, Dolby PLIIz/Audyssey DSX, October 09- - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 07:49 PM
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Woof Woof, Rnewste. Thanks for pointing out my complete stupidity. I just assumed that the 2010 had Denon Link 4th gen. Never even bothered to look. I'm an idiot.

What does anybody think about the Logitech Harmony 700 Universal Remote to go with the 4810/2010 combo? Anybody have any experience with this newer logitech model? I was thinking about ordering it today...
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post #722 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigpants_ku View Post

Woof Woof, Rnewste. Thanks for pointing out my complete stupidity. I just assumed that the 2010 had Denon Link 4th gen. Never even bothered to look. I'm an idiot.

It's even more of a bugbear for us here in Singapore cos the 4810 is hard-bundled to the 2010 and the 2010 does not support Denon Link 4

I already have the Oppo BD83 so not sure if I will be using the 2010 (also have a Sony S550 which is currently unused). Would probably love to replace all of them with a 4010 if budgets allow.
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post #723 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 08:10 PM
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Big,

...an easy mistake to make. I too would have assumed that a $700 DVD player from Denon these days WOULD have supported Denon 4'th. Not a great strategy on Denon's part, in my personal opinion.

Raybo
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post #724 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IwantmyTHX View Post

Just hook everything up with both HDMI (for normal viewing/listening) and analog (the red and white colored RCA cables) for multizone. As long as the source device outputs digital audio and analog audio at the same time it should work as it does on my 4806.

Thanks. I'll give that another look.
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post #725 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post

Well after more time with the doc for the IR codes I've found that pages 9 and 10 are the primary codes needed for the 4310 and 4810, some of which have been covered by batpig already. The following are now included:
Height/Wide speaker volumes
Discrete inputs for Net/USB
Quick Select 1-5
DSX toggles
Restorer Mode 1-3 (???)
Audio delay
Source Select Menu
Reference Level Offsets 0,5,10,15 for DynEQ (???)
And a few sound modes

After I verify a random sampling I'll send them off to Logitech.
In addition to these codes, there are pages devoted to alternate remote IDs, as well as the other zones and cursor/preset codes for USB, iPod, tuners, and so on. I may consider adding these also, though I'm not sure how best to handle it, it'd make this receiver very unwieldy with Harmony's interface.

Good stuff, Keith! Thanks for going through the effort and sharing this. I'll definitely look into getting these transferred over when you get them up to Logitech.

FYI, the Restoration modes are for improving digital/compressed audio.
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post #726 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post

Big,

...an easy mistake to make. I too would have assumed that a $700 DVD player from Denon these days WOULD have supported Denon 4'th. Not a great strategy on Denon's part, in my personal opinion.

Raybo

I personally think that DL4 is a bit of hype... since the 2010 doesn't play DVD-A or SACD, the benefit of a common clock is suspect at best for HBR codecs... it shouldn't make a difference...
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post #727 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher View Post

They are both excellent units.
I just prefer the way the Denon looks, the way it feels, the way it's setup, it's GUI, it's configurability and the way it sounds... to that of the 5007.
If not for the 4810, I'd be perfectly happy with the 5007.
DreamCatcher

Thanks! Looks like 4810 is indeed the way to go for me..

BTW, there seems to be some consistency here as I have yet met/heard anyone who have tried both 5007 and 4810, and went with the former (i.e. Onkyo).
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post #728 of 4067 Old 10-26-2009, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnewste View Post

I too would have assumed that a $700 DVD player from Denon these days WOULD have supported Denon 4'th.

I don't understand why Denon won't make a reasonable priced player without all the expensive analog sections, and just have a top-notch digital multi-format transport with D Link and HDMI. Let the soon-to-be-mine 4810 handle all the analog and video conversion! Why pay for those circuits twice?

fteixeira
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post #729 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fteixeira View Post

I don't understand why Denon won't make a reasonable priced player without all the expensive analog sections, and just have a top-notch digital multi-format transport with D Link and HDMI. Let the soon-to-be-mine 4810 handle all the analog and video conversion! Why pay for those circuits twice?

Denon does. That's the 4010. "Reasonably priced" in Denon's perspective (i.e. much cheaper than the A1UD. In Denon terminology, $700 is entry level).
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post #730 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 09:16 AM
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Thanks C722. I obviously need to do more research. Does anyone have the 4010 player mated to the AVR-4810? Impressions?

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post #731 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fteixeira View Post

I don't understand why Denon won't make a reasonable priced player without all the expensive analog sections, and just have a top-notch digital multi-format transport with D Link and HDMI. Let the soon-to-be-mine 4810 handle all the analog and video conversion! Why pay for those circuits twice?

Agreed. Many of us would have preferred the 4010UDCI (or a hypothetical 3010UDCI) be effectively the discontinued 2500BTCI all digital transport augmented w/ SACD, DVD-A, Denon Link 4th, and ABT VRS.

AJ
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post #732 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesingram01 View Post

Though I am new to this forum, I did utilize information I read here to help me make a decision on the 4310/4810 comparison. In the end I bought the 4810 for its more solid construction and a closer relationship to the 4308 than the 4310 has. The nail on the head was a coupon I found online that brought the price down to @2300 with the shipping. Now, it is nothing but listening and enjoying.
Thanks guys for helping me make this choice easier, and to Expo for getting me the unit at an incredible price!

PS,
The coupon is WS901X3807.

Thanks James - After following this thread, my last hurdle was buying from an unauthorized dealer or not. Coupon works and made it easy to pull the trigger - get the savings and the warranty!
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post #733 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 12:42 PM
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Any reviews or comments about the stereo performance of this amp?

I'd be interested if anyone could compare with amps like the Arcam AVR600 - which I really liked the sound of but unfortunately, as an AV amp it had far too many flaws in the end.
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post #734 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesingram01 View Post

Though I am new to this forum, I did utilize information I read here to help me make a decision on the 4310/4810 comparison. In the end I bought the 4810 for its more solid construction and a closer relationship to the 4308 than the 4310 has. The nail on the head was a coupon I found online that brought the price down to @2300 with the shipping. Now, it is nothing but listening and enjoying.
Thanks guys for helping me make this choice easier, and to Expo for getting me the unit at an incredible price!

PS,
The coupon is WS901X3807.

James, where is that coupon good at?

Thanks!
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post #735 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatball View Post

Thanks! Looks like 4810 is indeed the way to go for me..

BTW, there seems to be some consistency here as I have yet met/heard anyone who have tried both 5007 and 4810, and went with the former (i.e. Onkyo).

I'd be careful on that consistency issue. This is, after all, a 4810 thread. I do think the 4810 is proving to be a great receiver and I do think the build quality is a big step up from the 4310 but when you look for neutral advice as to the 4810 and Onkyo/Integra alternatives, I have real bias. As stated, I don't like the look or feel of the Onkyo products. It goes so much to my state of mind, I don't even like the dotty font the Integra/Onkyo LCD displays. I can't explain it, but it screams cheap...

To the credit of Onkyo/Integra, I have read many times over that they have pretty damn good amplification sections and some models are THX certified. These are real positives for Onkyo/Integra but I can't get over my dislike for their fronts and the rather poor GUI. To me, the Denon is a better put together and presented receiver, to an Integra owner on another thread, they may say the same subjective stuff I do.

I do think that there is very little to fault in the 4810, so far.... I have had a few glitches appear but am pretty comfortable that I can show my wife how to use the thing now. I have also had long term happy experiences with previous Denon receivers. (I still own a 3806 and a AVR-1400 that has been sent to my office).That means a lot to me. Last point, it's the only receiver out there today that can even do 11.1. That makes it a unique receiver at the time of my comment.
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post #736 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 06:18 PM
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I am moving from an Onkyo 875 to the Denon 4810. Will post my comments once I have some time to take the Onkyo out of the rack and put the 4810 in.

Bear in mind though that my current front L/R is being driven by a pair of Bel Canto monoblock power amps and so it may not be an ideal test case.
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post #737 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 07:55 PM
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Good Post SeattleHTGuy....

Are you enjoying your new speakers?

Did you see where Dan said the UMC is done, released to production and should be here in a few weeks?
I don't really have the interest in it that I once had. The Main reasons are no DPL2z or Audessey DSX.
Speaking of that, Did I hear you "hint" that you may be getting together a 9.1 or 11.1 this weekend?
No Rush, Just that I highly value your opinion.
Thanks,Brian

"I'm Your Huckleberry..."
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post #738 of 4067 Old 10-27-2009, 08:19 PM
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I love the new center and yes, I'm heading downstairs to hook up 9.1 (Going Wide DSX first). I have to do this in spurts as it's after kid bed time. They are on the top floor and my media room is two floors below so I can get fairly loud but nothing crazy. I think I would define myself in the finesse sound listening mode as opposed to the rock blasting genre of a few others. I should still get a decent take on this.

For anyone who cares about my opinion, I must say 7.1 in all modes is better than my B&K 307, more detail, more information and seperation and I always loved my B&K. So, I have chosen to slide in to trying the additional channels. 11.1 will need to wait another week but I'll report back in a couple days if anyone cares.

I also am using less than optimal speakers on the front and a bit of a mismatch. I am hoping Audyssey can handle this. My Wides will be some good old butt ugly Tangent Towers. For those who have ever watched "Ruthless People" and the speaker scene, I have to say, my wife bought these things, not me. No compensation issues here.... They do have good components though.
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post #739 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 06:45 AM
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Well, has anyone with both H and W speakers found that on action/sci-fi movies an extra level of 'immersion'? I watch a lot of those genres and have always wanted height , i.e. ceiling speakers just forward of seated position, to carry the sound of aircraft fly overs, bullets/photon torpedoes etc going from front to back. Has anyone seen any movies with these type of effects that made the heights ( more than wides I guess) really carry the video effect?
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post #740 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 10:53 AM
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For those wanting to use digital audio to zone 2/3, see the 2nd note on pg. 105. 2-channel PCM input only gets routed.
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post #741 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 10:53 AM
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I hooked up the Front Wides last night and now it's time to share my thoughts. (Well, if not for others..... just for the fun of it). If I offend, amuse, inspire, or just blather.... I'll just deal with it.

First, a little review of my thought process and what I am in fact giving an opinion on.

If you are looking for a review of how the new Denon works in Pure Direct Stereo playing original vinyl with the lights out and in nothing but underwear; that's not me. That's definetely not this review. This review is all about signal manipulation, Audyssey tricks, multiple speakers and really getting the Denon to throw all it's processing power at video sources and audio manipulation. Thus, I'm making the Gerbils inside sweat. Many purists may want an unadulterated signal. For me, I think most video and it's audio content have already been mashed, squashed, stretched, and pretty much toyed with at the studio level. My theory then is let the Denon be a Denon and do it's own funkified audio squishing thing.

Now, the equipment. You can see my list but to review the Fronts are B&W 805's (Original iteration) a new B&W HTM3s center (totally cool - by the way), 2 ugly Tangent Towers for the Wides, 2 B&W CC80's in ceiling for the surrounds, and two Energy Dipoles (not a horrible speaker) for the rears. A B&W ASW2500 sub completes the speaker set. I am using 2 monoblock Emotiva XP-1s for the Front L and R power but otherwise relying on the Denon for power.

I have seen a noticable improvement in sound since going from my older plain vanilla processing B&K 307 to the new 4810. (See previous posts). I also ran in 7.1 just to get accustomed to the new receiver, then 7.1 Audyssey managed, external amps added and finally with my new center Speaker. Each time I got, in my subjective opinion, better and more immersive sound. The new center, with a much better capacity to produce low mids and high bass has been significant. It kind of solidified my theory that the Center channel is the most critical speaker in a theater environment. I intend to power it seperately soon. I think, quite seriously that the L R Stereo lovers are flat out wrong about emphasizing the Left and Rights over the center. So, to hell with balance and splurge on the center! Yah, everyone says it's just "Dialogue" but even if it were, it is proving very nice to actually hear the "dialogue" clearly. Sorry, I rant!!!

So, here is what I did and how I set everything up and running. 1st, I placed the speakers pretty close to where the Denon manual says to for Audyssey DSX. Even the In Wall surrounds are in the correct spot and the tweeters are pointed correctly. I then let Audyssey do its thing for 8 seating positions I kind of did 3 positions close to my favorite seating area ( Hey, the room is only so big and my guests are only guests - it's my damn room!). I then fired up my trusty Tivo and sat to watching the latest episode of Numb3rs. All right, not exactly Oscar winning material, but as I have said before, I find Ridley Scott's Audio crew to be amazing. Hands down, this 5.1 DD show is the best audio edited show on TV. I also wanted my first review to be from a quickly slapped together show rather than a highly engineered high quality movie. Also, I listened late at night and really can't crank the system after the little dude and dudette are asleep. All TV watching was done at -10db on the Denon and I accepted all of Audysssey's EQ settings. My daughter and I are almost done with Prince Caspian - the book (Anyone remember actually reading a book - rather than just waiting for the movie?) This weekend, I'll be reviewing 9.1 at full throttle and no Dynamic anything. But, for my thoughts here, I slapped on every freakin sonic manipulation the 4810 can do. So here is my anti "Pure Direct".... Dolby Digital PLIIx Cinema, Audyssey DSX - Wide, Dynamic Volume (Includes Dynamic EQ) and probably spin dry moderate heat to boot. Seriously one could see the Gerbil sweat oozing out of the front.

A few notes on Audyssey. 1). The program coded every Speaker as small. That's consistent with what I've read elsewhere but it is interesting to note that it also recognized the 3 B&W's be set with a 40Hz crossover; even the little guys. The truly unattractive Tangents only got the nod at 60Hz as did the other speakers. I have a really dead room, lots of soft furniture, thick carpet, rough sand paper like wall paint and even some sound absorbing silk flowers. My room is very sound absorbing, minimal glass and lots of throw pillows. I set the Sub to get LFE and L,R low signal. The Emotiva's have a much higher gain and you really can tell this as the Audyssey goes through it's pinging exercise. The left right ping was pretty dang loud! The Audyssey set the Front L and R down a whole 5 and 5.5 db. The big ugly Tangents had to be boosted 2 db and the Center ended up being pretty much flat. I recommend anyone going through the Audyssey set up to pay attention to all the information Audyssey provides. With my dead sounding room the EQ curves, for what I would argue are pretty good speakers, was astounding to me; Plus or minus 9db across the spectrum. I think my room is close to ideal with minimal "problem areas". Think what you might get with a funky shaped, hard surface, sound bouncing mess of a space? I'd be curious to hear about what others are getting on these graphs.

Now, to the show. One last thing before I review... It was pretty slick to see the Audyssey DSX big aqua blue logo fire up. (For those who haven't gotten this far yet, I didn't even know it was there). Then you get another little indicator the wides are up and pumping.... The whole front of the Denon is just one big LCD light show.

How did it sound? Pretty great actually. I know this may bum the audiophile crowd out but the "Dialogue" was better. Low male voices seemed to fill the whole screen as opposed to just coming from the center. Throughout the show, be it a cheesy car chase or Numbers little in movie sound affect happy explanation of math theory snippits; much more of the material came from the screen area. If there were mutiple voices on screen, Left and Right, I got a better sense of the voice matching the location on screen. There was still quite a lot of front to back room affects but the whole show had more oomph upfront. Keep in mind, I also used Dynamic Volume functions and this made the episode easier to hear. Except for really showing off the chops of my outboard amps and freaking out my friends during explosive movies, Dynamic Volume is my everyday go to solution. I highly recommend it for all of us sound source manipulation types.

During the show, I paused, started rewound and did it all again with eyes open, closed, and in different seating locations. My take away is the Wides do actually add a much more upfront immersive element to my room. This is also not exactly Oscar Material for content but I'd say the Denon did a good job of making it all sound better.

Keeping in mind, this wasn't True HD 7.1 or for that matter a good 5.1 DD, I did go walking and attempt to hear what the new wides were actually producing. To me, after sticking an ear or two up close, most of what I got was just moderate levels of signal. Audyssey may disagree with this and perhaps with a better movie, I would to; but my first take away here is that it's not a huge amount of signal being sent to the wides. I didn't get that "tons of stuff going on" feeling. I will review again with Prince Caspian. My intention is to send the 805's to wide duty once I can convince my far better half to accept new towers. For others though, both budget limited and just less stupid than I. I suggest that the Wides do not "need" to be matching gold leafed pieces of modern art. As opposed to your 3 main speakers (or you wish them to be) are. I would imagine, since Audyssey says the Heights are relied on even less than the wides, the same thought process applies to the heights.

Here are a few other points for those contemplating this Receiver and may be a bit confused by this thread.

1). Setting up all these funky audio capabilities was flat out easy. This thread has gone off on tangents regarding this stuff. My observation is, even with Denon-speak manuals, you can fly through set up.
2). I still think the build quality is great.
3). Do the Firmware upgrade - Also easy.
4). Dynamic Volume is my new best friend.
5). PC Issues still exist - EDID pass though is problematic for me.
6). On occasion the Volume GUI overlay has crapped out (I need to figure this out).
7). It doesn't get too hot but is a bit warm on top. Be cautious on ventilation.
8). The Speaker Binding Posts are High Quality but tight (Be Careful)
9). The whole Audyssey Set Up GUI is totally cool!! Just plain elegant.
10). Use the Web Interface.
11). Remote Stinks
12). Filmmixer suggests if you have an HDMI input you still have the Denon upconvert to 1080P. I was suspect but damn if he wasn't right and my Tivo 3 looks better now (Marginally but still better)

So, In conclusion,

I like the Audyssey DSX Wide Mode and can confidently declare it does make the front of my room far more immersive and really opens up the whole front sound field. I will try movies next and see of I get more "stuff" out of the wides with a better source.

I always thought that putting 3 speakers upfront and 4 in the rear and surrounds was a bit goofy. It was kind of like the sound engineers were asleep and got out Dilberted by the marketing slobs. I mean when you go to a Theater, do they place most the speakers in the place next to or behind the screen, or do they stick them in the back of the room? It appears to me that Audyssey and Dolby are attempting to correct this error. Wides definetely place more sound content where it should be; up front.

If any one thinks I'm way off here and or have tried the new wides or heights, please chime in. I have thick skin and of course do most my listening with a nice cabernet in hand. I am not a tech person but rather just a hobbyist; not easily offended.
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post #742 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 11:17 AM
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nice review! out of curiosity, what setting do you use for Dynamic Volume? Have you experimented with the different modes? "Day" should do very little "audio squishing" whereas "Midnight" mode of course does the most and should engage a lot of compression.

I personally find "Evening" mode to the best.... the "Day" mode is really not much different from leaving Dynamic Volume off (and just using Dynamic EQ) whereas "Midnight" is a little too excessive unless I'm up late and the missus is asleep. I find that "Evening" mode is just right... plenty of dynamics and a rich surround field, but explosions don't cause me to jump for the volume on the remote. It's my default setting for nearly all movie and TV watching (of course I live in a townhouse where I can't really rock the roof off).

Quote:


This weekend, I'll be reviewing 9.1 at full throttle and no Dynamic anything.

just as an FYI (you probably already know this but just want to be clear) you would actually WANT Dynamic EQ to be engaged to be going at "full throttle", only the Dynamic Volume will engage any sort of "throttle squishing" Unless you are actually at "0" on the Volume dial, Dynamic EQ is actually boosting the dynamics to maintain the "reference" tonal balance.

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post #743 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 11:36 AM
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Batpig, Thanks and I did know about the Dynamic EQ system and how it works. Frankly, I believe from reading your posts and info. I will place Dynamic EQ on even for full throttle movie watching.

As far as Dynamic Volume, I have it set for Evening but haven't really even tried the other settings. I guess it's just more to experiment with. This receiver does do a ton of things and it's pretty easy to configure, once you kind of get the GUI and web interface figured out but I hadn't really even considered playing with the Dynamic Volume settings much yet. Thanks for the input. I am a true newbie compared to your expertise.
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post #744 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I always thought that putting 3 speakers upfront and 4 in the rear and surrounds was a bit goofy. I mean when you go to a Theater, do they place most the speakers in the place next to or behind the screen, or do they stick them in the back of the room? It appears to me that Audyssey and Dolby are attempting to correct this error. Wides definitely place more sound content where it should be; up front.

So, as I begin to wire our addition and plan to purchase the 4810, should I leave out the surround backs and just go with the surround rights and surround lefts and place them slightly behind the listening position? I hate to give up on the surround backs but if they do not really do much and it would be better to put in the heights in the ceiling to get a better front sound field or even front to back sound field them maybe I should rethink the wiring? It would save about 40 feet of speaker wire anyways.

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post #745 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 12:27 PM
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why skimp? the whole point of splurging on the 4810 is you don't have to, it can do ALL eleven channels!

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post #746 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 12:54 PM
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+ 1.

First, We all have budgets but.......

My first observation is that Audyssey, in adding Wides and Heights recognizes that rears should not of been the priority. Having said that, if you look at the Denon Manual Audyssey claims that DSX also adds content and smooths the sound field from Front to Rear as well.

8 years ago, we ripped in to the ceiling and walls of the media room and ran, what I thought was the correct amount of wires to the rear of the room and our rear projector. I put in BNC cable, 2 HDMI lines, VGA, 2 IR lines (to the lutron lighting), 1 Cat-5e and two additional 3 end RCA video lines. Now, with the flexibility of the Denon receiver and an idiot installer who snapped one of my HDMI runs at the plug, I am in need of more wiring. If I had just run 3 Cat-5es (for just a few more dollars), I could of solved the need to now rip in to the wall and replace an HDMI run. I could of used a two line Cat-5e HDMI extender. If I had run two more IR runs, I could be using a single Logitec RF extender as opposed to what now might be multiple. If I had ran two more L/R speaker lines I could be easily adding a Zone to the Bathroom and Bar Area to be! You just can't have too many wires iin a wall. What's this all mean?

I'm with Batpig. Run the wires even if you don't start with rears. Also, it's not that the rears aren't good and preffered but rather that the Wides are (in my opinion) well worth it and not gimmicky.

If anything, I'd skimp on quality of wire a bit if you are price conscious and budget limited. Also, if this is new construction, I'd really think about those other zones, additional HDMI out, Optical Out to Zone 4 and Zone 2 and Zone 3 speaker runs. I know this can get spendy to install stuff you may never actually use but the alternative is cutting in to walls, getting crazy contorted threading stuff through existing walls, needing to look at very expensive Gefen type wireless solutions, and spending really stupid money later on to build for something you could of just ran correctly the first time. I think others would agree that monoprice.com is your friend and the HDMI extenders are your double best friend. (Thanks filmmixer). Please also note that personally, I am really very bad at spatial thinking. Some people "just get" how stuff should be placed and dressed. I have to stare at things for hours to grasp how something should go together. I'm no engineer!

If anyone thinks I'm loony here, go ahead and add a thought. But "if'n" it were me, I'd run new construction for 11.1, spend the most on a sub and main fronts, but still configure everything as future proof as possible. One caveat, if it's a small area, say 10 by 14 or so, I do think you're just better off going with 5.1 plus wides or heights (I haven't tried heights yet). Audyssey actually recommends this as well as opposed to 7.1

Good Luck.
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post #747 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 01:24 PM
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When I was demoing a Denon 4310ci, I did 5.1 channels (L/C/R/SL/SR) plus an extra pair. I tried front wides, front heights, and extra rear surrounds. The extra speakers in the front were always a much better option to my ears. I didn't play with it long enough to really get a solid opinion on whether I generally prefer front wides versus front heights (do I generally prefer apples or oranges?), but either one beat the pants off of more stuff in the back.
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post #748 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I always thought that putting 3 speakers upfront and 4 in the rear and surrounds was a bit goofy. It was kind of like the sound engineers were asleep and got out Dilberted by the marketing slobs. I mean when you go to a Theater, do they place most the speakers in the place next to or behind the screen, or do they stick them in the back of the room? It appears to me that Audyssey and Dolby are attempting to correct this error. Wides definetely place more sound content where it should be; up front.

In a movie theater there's usually more speakers on the side walls than anywhere else (not that counting speakers in a room for 300 people is relevant to the home situation). In a 7.1 system, you have 3 speakers across the screen, 2 in the back and 2 at the sides.

As with mono and stereo, back when surround was first starting, there was a desire to use the fewest number of speakers possible to achieve the desired effect. That's good engineering. Mono begat sound. Stereo begat spatiality. Surround (Ls=Rs) begat "surround" effects. Folks began to realize the limitations of using one pair of surround speakers in mono. Shallow sweet spot; tradeoff between envelopment and rear/flyover effects. THX advocated dipoles to emphasis envelopment. Discrete 5.1 added stereo surrounds--making it possible to encode and reproduce directionality and spatiality in the surrounds for the first time. ITU codified the 110-deg surround locations with direct radiators as a best compromise, not a perfect solution. New processing technology allows the 5.1 compromise to be further mitigated--deliver or upmix to 7.1, and have both side and rear surround speakers, with directionality and spatiality rendered for a larger listening space. Is that not worthwhile? Is that really being "Dilberted by the marketing slobs?"

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post #749 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

In a movie theater there's usually more speakers on the side walls than anywhere else (not that counting speakers in a room for 300 people is relevant to the home situation). In a 7.1 system, you have 3 speakers across the screen, 2 in the back and 2 at the sides.

As with mono and stereo, back when surround was first starting, there was a desire to use the fewest number of speakers possible to achieve the desired effect. That's good engineering. Mono begat sound. Stereo begat spatiality. Surround (Ls=Rs) begat "surround" effects. Folks began to realize the limitations of using one pair of surround speakers in mono. Shallow sweet spot; tradeoff between envelopment and rear/flyover effects. THX advocated dipoles to emphasis envelopment. Discrete 5.1 added stereo surrounds--making it possible to encode and reproduce directionality and spatiality in the surrounds for the first time. ITU codified the 110-deg surround locations with direct radiators as a best compromise, not a perfect solution. New processing technology allows the 5.1 compromise to be further mitigated--deliver or upmix to 7.1, and have both side and rear surround speakers, with directionality and spatiality rendered for a larger listening space. Is that not worthwhile? Is that really being "Dilberted by the marketing slobs?"

Well, that's a point on the more speakers on the side argument but (and I'm not a Theater Sound Engineer) most of these side speakers (I think) are just basically producing the same side surround material - for the 300 or more people you mention, I'd equate that to a home theater single side surround. I'd also say more of the amp power and speaker set of modern theaters are located up front. It may be the same signal but the emphasis is on the forward positioned screen. Again, I've never designed a theater but I can see the speakers at the bass of the screen and behind it. I see teany little surrounds on the side. So, I still think my "Dilberted" comment applies. When we went from L/R to 5.1 and then 7.1, it appears that little thought was given on exactly how a home theater environment differs from a Movie House experience. THX has gone great lengths to pioneer audio for the home but even now most movies are sound edited to be played at a pretty high reference levels. Thus the whole opening for Dynamic Volume features.

I stand by my comment and from what I've seen published by Audyssey, they are aware of these disconnects and are succesfully (in my opinion) attempting to correct for real world home listening. I think it's pretty clear that going from 5.1 to standard 7.1 missed the boat a touch and yes, I think marketing did win out a bit from the actual sound engineers. Perhaps it was somewhat due to technology limitations at the time, but I would guess it had just as much to do with simply throwing out a 7.1 solution just to claim you have a 7.1 solution. Again though, I am not an engineer and probably too harsh and cynical in my assesment.

I guess I understand your reference to the historical changes in audio multi-channel evolution but am not sure I see your point. Have you tried the new Heights or Wides? If so, do you disagree with Audyssey's written recommendation to potentially forego the rears for wides? Again, IMHO, I'm with Audyssey but prefer going with both as my room is large enough to benefit.
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post #750 of 4067 Old 10-28-2009, 03:19 PM
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I am in need of more wiring. If I had just run 3 Cat-5es (for just a few more dollars), I could of solved the need to now rip in to the wall and replace an HDMI run. I could of used a two line Cat-5e HDMI extender. If I had run two more IR runs, I could be using a single Logitec RF extender as opposed to what now might be multiple. If I had ran two more L/R speaker lines I could be easily adding a Zone to the Bathroom and Bar Area to be! You just can't have too many wires iin a wall. What's this all mean?

That is why for new construction (or open walls) I always suggest some extra conduit as well. I will put 2 of the biggest pieces I can behind the equipment when I open my walls soon. Just need to decide between the front of the room or the back.

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