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post #121 of 5499 Old 08-16-2009, 08:41 PM
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Just put this out on display tonight and it seemed like a beast for the twenty minutes I had it cranked. Will let you more tomorrow when I play with it some more. Looking forward to the 3007 in september
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post #122 of 5499 Old 08-16-2009, 09:26 PM
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Thanks again for the review.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

...I plan to do a more detailed comparison (hopefully soon) with a new Onkyo model that is nearly the same in price. That would be more fair and far more objective...

You gettin' your hands on the 1007 or the 3007?

Thx

I want Ed on DVD/Blu-ray!
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post #123 of 5499 Old 08-16-2009, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by redsandvb View Post

Thanks again for the review.



You gettin' your hands on the 1007 or the 3007?

Thx

For sure the 3007 not sure about the 1007. I can't do every unit but so far I am batting almost a 1000.

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post #124 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

The Zone2/3 speaker outputs can be reconfigured for Height/Width channels... so I guess it's logical to expect the same can be done on the Pre-Outs... so can it?


Guess no difference from how they handle the Zone2/3 signals right?

I think that having different speakers terminals and preouts for H/W is not the same thing.
Signal flow looks like
Decoder/Processing -> Channel Connection Matrix I. -> DAC -> 7 AMPS -> Channel Connection Matrix II. -> Speakers Terminals.

Matrix I. - takes all decoded channels streams and connects these to DAC acording to SP layout selection
Matrix II. - takes 7 amplified channels and connects these to physical bindings (relays?)

If there is more than 8 channels of DAC's inside 807, there is !possibility! to connect it's outputs to preouts. If there is only 8 channels of DAC (which is most probably the problem), only 7(.1) channels can be routed to speaker terminals via Matrix 2.

Indication of the fact, that full 11 channel DSX won't be possible, is manual statement, that SURR BACK preouts is physically the same as for width/height chanels, and with another statement that only analog signals can be output to Zones imply, that there is only 8 channels of DACs and no possibility to have full 11 channel of DSX.

And the fact, that for 11.1 you need 12 channels of DACs, which at least one is 8 channel (that one advertised), then you need additional 4 channels of DAC which you can achieve by using 8 channels (4 not used), or 2+2. If latter was true, than Onkyo could use even more superior 2 channels DAC (used 8 channels is nothing special) for fronts, and I think, that they wouldn't let pass the oportunity to marketize this.

Now somebody have to approve this.

I wish I was wrong ;-)

T.
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post #125 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereowise View Post

In the car audio environment using a single channel sub amp, a svc 4ohm sub shows a 4 ohm load. If you add a 2nd svc 4 ohm sub to that same 1 channel amp, the load drops to 2 ohm. If you have an amp that can handle the load, that's the best way to get the most power out of your amp. That is what I thought may be going on with the 807, running 9 4ohm speakers to a 7 channel amp- two of the channels would be run pretty hard, unless the amp can do something about the settings.

That's why I'm pretty sure when running 9 speakers, some are being run internally by internal means. This was pretty common back when 6.1 AVRs have 7ch hookups for dual surround-back speakers. I really doubt they're running in parallel internally just for the reasons you mentioned.

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post #126 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 08:25 AM
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Based on the glowing review I have purchased this unit and looking forward to receiving it soon. I will be using it as part of a whole house audio system. Looking forward to trying out the Pandora module. I will be using rs232 to control it. I will dig into it to see if it is possible to get metadata from the pandora module via rs232. Joe, does the OSD display what song is playing on your pandora stations?

I am looking forward to also installing the height chanels, I need to start figuring out where to put them. My family room has 18 foot ceilings, is that better than putting them up half way (9 feet) up my front wall?
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post #127 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

805 had MultEQ XT
806 dropped XT (only normal MultEQ) but added Dynamic EQ
807 still has MultEQ + Dynamic EQ, but adds Dynamic Volume

So, yes, the 806 and 807 both have regular MultEQ with 6 measurement points and 2x satellite filter resolution. Unfortunately, dropping MultEQ XT has been a common thing among mid-level receivers these days On the new Denons you have to go to the $2000msrp 4310CI to get XT now.

I am severely disappointed that XT is being positioned into the much greater than $1k category of receivers. I just picked up a closeout of the 2809 that has XT, DynamicEQ and Dynamic Volume for well under its list price.

Again I don't have anything against a 'height' mode other than there is no initial 'height' reference in the audio mixes. It is not like PLIIx where there is L/R surround information that can be used to more accurately determine what should be in the SBR/SBL channels. Again there is no reference for height in the mix. Now if this was mixed in as a discrete channel in audio tracks, I would drop my objections over it.

I would much rather have the XT over a DSP 'height' mode.

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post #128 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

I am severely disappointed that XT is being positioned into the much greater than $1k category of receivers. I just picked up a closeout of the 2809 that has XT, DynamicEQ and Dynamic Volume for well under its list price.

Again I don't have anything against a 'height' mode other than there is no initial 'height' reference in the audio mixes. It is not like PLIIx where there is L/R surround information that can be used to more accurately determine what should be in the SBR/SBL channels. Again there is no reference for height in the mix. Now if this was mixed in as a discrete channel in audio tracks, I would drop my objections over it.

I would much rather have the XT over a DSP 'height' mode.

I would take Height over any Audyssey calibration. It is that good! BTW, we get it. You don't like Height even though you never heard it. How many more times are you going to post the same thing?

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post #129 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

Based on the glowing review I have purchased this unit and looking forward to receiving it soon. I will be using it as part of a whole house audio system. Looking forward to trying out the Pandora module. I will be using rs232 to control it. I will dig into it to see if it is possible to get metadata from the pandora module via rs232. Joe, does the OSD display what song is playing on your pandora stations?

I am looking forward to also installing the height chanels, I need to start figuring out where to put them. My family room has 18 foot ceilings, is that better than putting them up half way (9 feet) up my front wall?

That will be perfectly fine and you will be excited once you get them up and running...

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post #130 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 01:43 PM
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that's crazy, I looked at the rear panel photo of the 807 and it looks like they have SEPARATE speaker binding posts for wide, height, and surr.back.... even though it's the same amp for all three!! Eleven different binding posts on a 7.1 channel receiver!

That is bizarre, no wonder there is such confusion over what is powering what. It seems that it makes more sense to just have an "Amp Assign" channel that can be any of the three.... although I guess this way it allows you to maintain your 7.1 speaker hook-ups and then add a "height" or "wide" channel and then decide at your discretion whether to engage PLIIx (to add rears) or PLIIz/DSX (to add height/wides).

Joe, have you figured out how to tell the Onkyo which speaker is "in play"?

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post #131 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, in the set up menu there is an option to select Height, WIde or Surround Back. I am expecting a call in 20 minutes from Onkyo so I will try and shed some light on this.

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post #132 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 01:49 PM
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Are there any heat issues with these new AVR's? I haven't seen any reports yet.

Thanks

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post #133 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Heat issues I never experienced with any of my other Onkyos. I have never had one shut down. I admit they would get pretty warm which is why I went with the Antec Component Cooler (good for my long football marathons)... The 807 (even without the Antec) does not seem to get as warm as my 805 does.

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post #134 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

It's not bridging, but kind-of the opposite, running speakers in series off of one amp channel. The two 4ohm speakers in series would become an 8ohm load. Bridging is basically the opposite, running one load off of multiple channels of amplification.

Correct, running two 4 ohm speakers with one channel (parallel config) would double the resistance/halve the load to 2 ohms. If you run the same two speakers in a series, the ohms would increase to 8ohms. The latter is obviously the best solution if you're trying to distribute audio throughout numerous speakers and not cook your amp.
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post #135 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I would take Height over any Audyssey calibration. It is that good!

Since there is no reference for the height audio, how is it implemented?

Does the chip somehow look for sounds like alarms, helicopters, etc? In other words, can it be simulated? Or must the movie disc contain the reference for sound to come out of the height speakers. Very curious about this!
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post #136 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 02:42 PM
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PLIIz is a matrixing process like other Pro Logic schemes; from what I understand, it looks for "decorrelated" sounds (which can include things like rainfall, crowd noise, etc) and "steers" them to the height channels. So something that would be present in the soundtrack as a non-directional "ambient" type of noise gets steered to the height channels. It's similar to how PLIIx steers information from the two surrounds (in 5.1 soundtrack) to the rears to generate 7.1... except with PLIIx it is looking specifically for directional cues because it is stereo (as opposed to non-directional like the heights).

Audyssey DSX is a totally different thing, it is not a simple "steering" matrix process like Pro Logic circuits. Audyssey claims it is much more sophisticated and of course they claim it is also superior. Unfortunately, it is hard to say exactly what is going on as it is more of a "black box" technology, and Joe keeps refusing to test it out! You should note that with DSX, Audyssey specifically recommends adding WIDE channels before height channels, since creating a greater horizontal continuity in the soundstage has the greatest effect on improving the listening experience. It can do height channels also (or in addition to wides).

The specs for Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio do allow for the implementation of discrete, pre-encoded "height" or "wide" channel information. However, I don't think there are any soundtracks out there that utilize it.

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post #137 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

Since there is no reference for the height audio, how is it implemented?

Does the chip somehow look for sounds like alarms, helicopters, etc? In other words, can it be simulated? Or must the movie disc contain the reference for sound to come out of the height speakers. Very curious about this!

No, it is a typical DSP algorithm that analyzes phase and amplitude, sum and differences between channels and then uses that information to create additional channels.

At least with the original ProLogic and subsequent versions until PLIIz it had some way of referencing where the sound should be in the channel array.

To simplify it:
Original PL: information that was common in the L/R channels was placed in the center, information that was common but out of phase in a certain band was the surround channel. Let's not forget PL movies were mixed SPECIFICALLY for PL. PL was initially done in the analog domain

PLIIx (5.1 to 7.1): Similiar to PL but more could be done in the digital realm, SL/SR information could be expanded to SL/SBL/SBR/SR.

Now to PLIIz, where's the reference information for height in the audio design/mix? It ain't freakin' there. Remember, the original PL mixes were mixed specifically for PL. I don't think any mixer is mixing with height for 99.9% content out there. I don't see software being marketed as mixed for PLIIz.

The whole point of going to a discrete system initially was accuracy. With PLIIz you are letting a gimmicky DSP algorithm determine where sound should be coming from.

Don't get me wrong... it is joerod's opinion that it is useful... I disagree... sure it might add some nice effect, but is it what the mixing engineer intended... doubtful.

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post #138 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Don't get me wrong... it is joerod's opinion that it is useful... I disagree... sure it might add some nice effect, but is it what the mixing engineer intended... doubtful.

I agree, it is a step towards getting height into the mixes. Once the height and width speakers are in more homes... eventually the demand will come for more accurate mixes utilizing a proper spec.

I am sure we have all had a moment when we read that the surround sound went from 5 to 7 and shook our head at how the industry is trying to fleece us. But once we hear it, we love it.

Pretty soon every home will be like the famous 'Wall of Sound' the Grateful Dead had.
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post #139 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright. After two conversations... I have come to my own conclusion. I sometimes connect and disconnect to much. SO, here is exactly what I know.

1. When the 807 is connected by all the speaker terminals (no pre outs) and Height or Wide or Surround Back is selected the sound will only come out of the selected speakers in the set up menu.

2. If you are using an AMP and use the pre outs for the 7 channels then use the speaker terminals (Height) on the 807 you will get sound from all the speakers. Meaning pre outs and the Height speaker terminals on the 807. The sound is meant for the Heights (when Height sound mode is selected) but at this time I am not sure what I am hearing from the Surround Backs. I am waiting for another call tomorrow.

I will keep experimenting... I also have the 707 here and want to spend some time with it. I know, I am sick!

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post #140 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

PLIIz is a matrixing process like other Pro Logic schemes; from what I understand, it looks for "decorrelated" sounds (which can include things like rainfall, crowd noise, etc) and "steers" them to the height channels. So something that would be present in the soundtrack as a non-directional "ambient" type of noise gets steered to the height channels. It's similar to how PLIIx steers information from the two surrounds (in 5.1 soundtrack) to the rears to generate 7.1... except with PLIIx it is looking specifically for directional cues because it is stereo (as opposed to non-directional like the heights).

Audyssey DSX is a totally different thing, it is not a simple "steering" matrix process like Pro Logic circuits. Audyssey claims it is much more sophisticated and of course they claim it is also superior. Unfortunately, it is hard to say exactly what is going on as it is more of a "black box" technology, and Joe keeps refusing to test it out! You should note that with DSX, Audyssey specifically recommends adding WIDE channels before height channels, since creating a greater horizontal continuity in the soundstage has the greatest effect on improving the listening experience. It can do height channels also (or in addition to wides).

The specs for Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio do allow for the implementation of discrete, pre-encoded "height" or "wide" channel information. However, I don't think there are any soundtracks out there that utilize it.

This week for sure. I have to get to the bottom of the 807 mystery...

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post #141 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 04:49 PM
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Quote:


1. When the 807 is connected by all the speaker terminals (no pre outs) and Height or Wide or Surround Back is selected the sound will only come out of the selected speakers in the set up menu.

2. If you are using an AMP and use the pre outs for the 7 channels then use the speaker terminals (Height) on the 807 you will get sound from all the speakers. Meaning pre outs and the Height speaker terminals on the 807.

OK, I think I see the problem now, because you are mixing pre-outs with speaker posts. As sailort discusses a few posts up there is a confusion about the signal path from processing channels to the amps and/or pre-outs.

The problem is that the Onkyo 807 has ELEVEN speaker posts -- the standard five for front/center/surround, plus separate binding posts for rear, height, and wide -- but only SEVEN pre-outs (standard front/center/surround/rear).

The normal five channels (front/center/surround) have five amps dedicated to those five channels, and this of course works as normal.

Now, there are only TWO amps which will power one pair of those SIX binding posts (rear/height/wide).... the signal from those 6th/7th processed channels will travel to only ONE of those three options via the speaker binding posts.

But there is only ONE pair of "pre-outs" for those two channels... it is labeled "Surround Back" but I bet it simply reproduces whichever of rear/height/wide you have selected. I think that is what is causing the confusion here... even if you have "height" selected, there is still signal coming out of the "surround back" pre-outs.

So, for example, let's say you have 9.1 speakers configured -- 5.1 standard plus rears plus heights.... this is how I think it will work:

1. If you hook the nine speakers up normally to the speaker posts (no pre-outs), only seven speakers will be "live" at any one time, depending on which one you select in settings.

2. If you hook up the "heights" to the speaker posts, and the "rears" to the pre-out, and then select the "Height" configuration in the settings, the "Height" signal will come out of the "Height" speaker posts but it will ALSO come out of the "surround back" pre-outs.... so while 9 speakers are "live" and it sounds like you are getting 9.1, what is really happening is the "Height" signal is being duplicated, because it comes out of both the "height" speaker posts and also the "surr.back" pre-outs!

again, going back to sailort's points above, the problem seems to be this bizarre configuration where there are TWO pre-outs but SIX speaker posts... but they are all really controlled by only TWO channels of processing!

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post #142 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

OK, I think I see the problem now, because you are mixing pre-outs with speaker posts. As sailort discusses a few posts up there is a confusion about the signal path from processing channels to the amps and/or pre-outs.

The problem is that the Onkyo 807 has ELEVEN speaker posts -- the standard five for front/center/surround, plus separate binding posts for rear, height, and wide -- but only SEVEN pre-outs (standard front/center/surround/rear).

The normal five channels (front/center/surround) have five amps dedicated to those five channels, and this of course works as normal.

Now, there are only TWO amps which will power one pair of those SIX binding posts (rear/height/wide).... the signal from those 6th/7th processed channels will travel to only ONE of those three options via the speaker binding posts.

But there is only ONE pair of "pre-outs" for those two channels... it is labeled "Surround Back" but I bet it simply reproduces whichever of rear/height/wide you have selected. I think that is what is causing the confusion here... even if you have "height" selected, there is still signal coming out of the "surround back" pre-outs.

So, for example, let's say you have 9.1 speakers configured -- 5.1 standard plus rears plus heights.... this is how I think it will work:

1. If you hook the nine speakers up normally to the speaker posts (no pre-outs), only seven speakers will be "live" at any one time, depending on which one you select in settings.

2. If you hook up the "heights" to the speaker posts, and the "rears" to the pre-out, and then select the "Height" configuration in the settings, the "Height" signal will come out of the "Height" speaker posts but it will ALSO come out of the "surround back" pre-outs.... so while 9 speakers are "live" and it sounds like you are getting 9.1, what is really happening is the "Height" signal is being duplicated, because it comes out of both the "height" speaker posts and also the "surr.back" pre-outs!

again, going back to sailort's points above, the problem seems to be this bizarre configuration where there are TWO pre-outs but SIX speaker posts... but they are all really controlled by only TWO channels of processing!

Bingo!

Man, I can't wait until we get true 9.1(2) receivers...

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post #143 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 06:13 PM
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post #144 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 06:31 PM
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Onkyo TX-NR3007 is 9.2 and $1100 cheaper than the Denon. Release should be about the same time.

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post #145 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 06:41 PM
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How about the sound quality of this???? Where would you rank it compared to other units you've had?

Thanks.
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post #146 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

Onkyo TX-NR3007 is 9.2 and $1100 cheaper than the Denon. Release should be about the same time.

I plan to review both.

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post #147 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

get ready

http://www.jr.com/denon/pe/DNN_AVR4810CI/

I am excited.

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post #148 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnnyTT View Post

How about the sound quality of this???? Where would you rank it compared to other units you've had?

Thanks.

Very high. As good or better than last year's top Onkyos. Even better with Height. Seriously.

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post #149 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Well the company behind the Reon and Realta chipsets, Silicon Optix, went belly up so I doubt newer models will be using this solution unless someone buys the rights to it. It was generally regarded as a better solution when implemented properly. I know the intial Onkyos with it the 875(receiver)/885(pre-pro) and 905(receiver) had issues with its implementation. I think it was not properly passing BTB/WTW information. AFAIK, it has not been corrected on the 876/886 and 906.

Faroudja's solution is now considered to be a bit long in the tooth.

The newer Anchor Bay solutions seem to be where it is at as far as deinterlacing and scaling.

PLIIz just uses a 'real-time' DSP algorithm to derive a height channel. I have heard good and bad about it. I am concerned that information is placed in the channel that should not be there and also I think it is getting ridiculous with the number of speakers that they expect end users to add to their rooms. Hell I have a dedicated room and I don't plan on adding 'height' channels from some DSP algorithm. Now if these were truly discrete channels where a professional sound mixer had control of what gets put in the channel and what doesn't I might buy into it, but to me it's a gimmick.

Hello,
According to the WSR review of the TX-SR875, almost all of the issues with Reon were addressed with fw 1.04 on. The review is excellent and through. It is available on the Audyssey website as a PDF. http://www.audyssey.com/media/downlo...kyoTXSR875.pdf

I am very impressed with the feature set of the 807 and would seem to make for a stellar preamp processor.
Cheers,
AD

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post #150 of 5499 Old 08-17-2009, 07:57 PM
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joerod, You previously tried out the Onkyo 607 and said it sounded awesome and had plenty of power for your theater. From your theater pics, it looks like all your speakers are bookshelf size and in-wall, with no front floorstanders.

So how does the 807 compare to it's little brother 607? I know the analog upscaling sucks on the 607, but what about sound quality comparison? Is sound quality similar?
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