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post #31 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I don't like the idea of sending bass/LFE to both the mains and the sub. If you want bass from the L/R channel, set your mains to large. But sending LFE to your mains and your sub seems like it would be non optimal.

I need the sub for movies, I'll check inside the Denon Stereo mode if I can turn off the SUB but I doubt it will help much. Thanks for the tips, I soon as I get home I'll try couple things mentionned here and post the results.
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post #32 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:47 AM
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Well sure you need the sub. I just meant to send bass/LFE to the sub only. Or if your mains are really full range, you could set them to large. But you would still leave the bass/LFE out set to the sub.

I have heard my own system with bass out set to mains + sub, and I did not care for it.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #33 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Well sure you need the sub. I just meant to send bass/LFE to the sub only. Or if your mains are really full range, you could set them to large. But you would still leave the bass/LFE out set to the sub.

I have heard my own system with bass out set to mains + sub, and I did not care for it.


I think that if I remove LFE from the MAIN speaker I will lost whatever the DENON crossover is set at below from the MAIN, am I right ?
JBL stadium speakers go down to 36hz
My sub goes down to 26hz
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post #34 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

I think that if I remove LFE from the MAIN speaker I will lost whatever the DENON crossover is set at below from the MAIN, am I right ?

Well it make sens, I'll set the cross over to 80hz and LFE to SUB only, (main speaker at large) and test.
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post #35 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

I think that if I remove LFE from the MAIN speaker I will lost whatever the DENON crossover is set at below from the MAIN, am I right ?

I don't know Denon. I have heard someone claim this can happen though.

In fact I was not familar with the concept until recently that receivers would simply lose LFE above the crossover. I am not sure how much LFE is below 80 hz in the LFE channel in movies.

Speaking personally, I would rather risk losing a bit of LFE near and above 80hz than suffer from what I perceive to be a bad bass management setup of main + sub. But this from my own experience. In your setup, and with your own taste in sound, maybe main + sub is a good choice.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #36 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 07:00 AM
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Oh, I found this thread in case you had not seen it, which addresses what you brought up. Interesting stuff. I have no idea how my own receiver works in terms of lost LFE.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=836722

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #37 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 07:07 AM
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Hello,
If you do not need HDMI, go for a flagship mega AVR like the AVR-5700 or 5800. These are some of the best built receivers ever made. Huge power reserves and unbelievably flexible.

Does the AVR-1803 have preamp outputs? If so, adding a high power multichannel amplifier would be by far the best solution for adding substantial power to your system. Actually, after looking up your model, it seems it does not offer preamp outputs. Time for a new model.
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post #38 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 07:11 AM
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Have you checked your connections to see if one of your speakers is wired incorrectly?

I would check the connections from the back of the Denon to each speaker, one at a time - red (+) to red (+) and Black (-) to black (-).

And then recalibrate with a sound level meter.

Regards,

Tom
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post #39 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamas View Post

Have you checked your connections to see if one of your speakers is wired incorrectly?

I would check the connections from the back of the Denon to each speaker, one at a time - red (+) to red (+) and Black (-) to black (-).

And then recalibrate with a sound level meter.

Regards,

Tom

Speaker are wired correctly, but I'll double check everything, just in case. Distance settings are good and speakers are calibrated with a SPL meter.
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post #40 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

Well it make sens, I'll set the cross over to 80hz and LFE to SUB only, (main speaker at large) and test.

From what I've been reading on different forums here how the LFE works with Denon.

Speaker : Large : receive full range
Speaker : Small : receive range above the crossover

SUB: NORM : Sub receive LFE and whathever bass channel from all the speakers that are set to SMALL, Speakers set as large CONTINUE TO GET FULL RANGE

SUB : LFE + MAIN : Sub and Main receive LFE + whathever bass channel from all the speakers that are set to SMALL

I am sure now I want to use the NORM mode, my JBL will receive all the range but LFE and other speakers bass will be redirected to the SUB.
I will see tonight if things will improve.
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post #41 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Removing LFE from the main improved the sound, I was sceptical but it is better. Sound is still too bright, not enough warm for my taste. Maybe the JBL are bright and the Denon is also bright and the combination is not optimal for music.
I found a very cheap used Marantz SR4400 anybody know if this a good amp ?

I am thinking about getting another hi-fi amp for CD, anybody know if I can connect two amp on the same speakers ?

Thank you all, you guys are very helpful.
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post #42 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 04:51 PM
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It's hard to say why your system is bright. I have been there. I have spent money to improve sound, then been dissapointed.

I have done tons of reading the last three years. Probably 100's of hours. I have read from audiophile types, engineers and pro reviewers.

My view is as follows.

Electronics are designed to produce take their input and produce an output that's as close to the input as possible (with one exception I will address in a minute.)

CD players, DVD players etc. send a perfect digital copy to a receiver. A receiver can produce an excellent analog signal from that digital signal. They interpolate between the data points from the PCM, and produce a clean noise free output. The concept of DACs sounding different confuses me as their specs are so excellent.

Once the signal clears the DAC and associated op amp it goes through a lot of components. Routing chips for zone assignments, volume control chip, etc.

When they measure the pre out (often using a direct mode,) they measure very well.

I don't expect stuff like the zone routing chip to change frequency response. They will likely add some noise, but this is minimal according to what I know.

Then you get to the amp. The amp's job again is to amplify the signal and not change it's frequency makeup. Distortion can add various harmonics. But again, amps tend to measure very well. They measure very flat, with low THD+N.

So brightness, and by brightness I mean some incorrect frequency response, should not be a huge problem in properly operating electronics, at least according to everything I am reading.

If the amp is clipping enough, it can sound badly, or course. There's an annoying effect you get when you increase volume past a certain point. I have been told this is likely the receiver clipping.

Receivers now have room correction. This could be good or bad. It can't fix all room problems. And YPAO has shown be that it's bass management does not make the best choices, IMO. So room corection, could make things worse, I guess as well as better.

Speakers don't have flat response. Not even. If you look at measurements, they have pretty clear non linearties especially at the crossover.

Even worse is your room. It will have crazy response swings. For example, while playing a test tone once, I noticed it was pretty quiet compared to other tones in the same band. I moved my ear slightly and the tone got much louder. I made measurements with my SPL meter, and I think I saw close to a 10 dB swing in SPL just moving the SPL meter around a few feet!

So room response is the worst potential enemy. Talk about non linearity!

Then speakers.

Electronics, on the other hand are really well behaved when compared to rooms and speakers.

So brightness maybe should not be first blamed on electronics?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #43 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

Removing LFE from the main improved the sound, I was sceptical but it is better. Sound is still too bright, not enough warm for my taste. Maybe the JBL are bright and the Denon is also bright and the combination is not optimal for music.
I found a very cheap used Marantz SR4400 anybody know if this a good amp ?

I am thinking about getting another hi-fi amp for CD, anybody know if I can connect two amp on the same speakers ?

Thank you all, you guys are very helpful.

Did you try turning down the treble using the tone controls???
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post #44 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

Did you try turning down the treble using the tone controls???

Tone control only affect 1 band
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post #45 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

It's hard to say why your system is bright. I have been there. I have spent money to improve sound, then been dissapointed.

I have done tons of reading the last three years. Probably 100's of hours. I have read from audiophile types, engineers and pro reviewers.

My view is as follows.

Electronics are designed to produce take their input and produce an output that's as close to the input as possible (with one exception I will address in a minute.)

CD players, DVD players etc. send a perfect digital copy to a receiver. A receiver can produce an excellent analog signal from that digital signal. They interpolate between the data points from the PCM, and produce a clean noise free output. The concept of DACs sounding different confuses me as their specs are so excellent.

Once the signal clears the DAC and associated op amp it goes through a lot of components. Routing chips for zone assignments, volume control chip, etc.

When they measure the pre out (often using a direct mode,) they measure very well.

I don't expect stuff like the zone routing chip to change frequency response. They will likely add some noise, but this is minimal according to what I know.

Then you get to the amp. The amp's job again is to amplify the signal and not change it's frequency makeup. Distortion can add various harmonics. But again, amps tend to measure very well. They measure very flat, with low THD+N.

So brightness, and by brightness I mean some incorrect frequency response, should not be a huge problem in properly operating electronics, at least according to everything I am reading.

If the amp is clipping enough, it can sound badly, or course. There's an annoying effect you get when you increase volume past a certain point. I have been told this is likely the receiver clipping.

Receivers now have room correction. This could be good or bad. It can't fix all room problems. And YPAO has shown be that it's bass management does not make the best choices, IMO. So room corection, could make things worse, I guess as well as better.

Speakers don't have flat response. Not even. If you look at measurements, they have pretty clear non linearties especially at the crossover.

Even worse is your room. It will have crazy response swings. For example, while playing a test tone once, I noticed it was pretty quiet compared to other tones in the same band. I moved my ear slightly and the tone got much louder. I made measurements with my SPL meter, and I think I saw close to a 10 dB swing in SPL just moving the SPL meter around a few feet!

So room response is the worst potential enemy. Talk about non linearity!

Then speakers.

Electronics, on the other hand are really well behaved when compared to rooms and speakers.

So brightness maybe should not be first blamed on electronics?

So if I summarize, it might be my room or the speakers. Well since 90% who helped me here think it is not the receiver then I'll continue looking around. I am a bit depress, I want to enjoy my music ...
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post #46 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 07:05 PM
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Well some people do attribute brightness to amps/receivers. But that thinking does not make sense to me.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #47 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Well some people do attribute brightness to amps/receivers. But that thinking does not make sense to me.

I don't know what to think either. I blown away by the fact that movies sound great and that music DVD (The last waltz, Pink Floyd, Remember that night by Roger Gilmore) sound amazing but as soon as the receiver switch to stereo, direct or any other mode it just sound aggressive and bright.
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post #48 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

Tone control only affect 1 band

Tone controls affect the entire audio output of your receiver, not just one band. Those tone controls were put there for a reason, not just decoration. Turning down the treble will most certainly take out the brightness in your audio system.
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post #49 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

Tone controls affect the entire audio output of your receiver, not just one band. Those tone controls were put there for a reason, not just decoration. Turning down the treble will most certainly take out the brightness in your audio system.

Here the tone explained by my manual :
Tone Control Specifications Power Amplifier Section Rated ... Treble: ±12 dB at 10 kHz Bass: ±12 dB at 100 Hz
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post #50 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 10:12 AM
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I am not 100% sure, but I think a treble control traditionally applies the gain to all frequencies above the given frequency. It's a high pass filter connect to an op amp.

It might be done digitally now, but it likely works the same way.

I have never found tone controls to be helpful in any case

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #51 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 10:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I am not 100% sure, but I think a treble control traditionally applies the gain to all frequencies above the given frequency. It's a high pass filter connect to an op amp.

It might be done digitally now, but it likely works the same way.

I have never found tone controls to be helpful in any case

Quite the opposite, I have found tone controls to be extremely valuable. Not all rooms are the same and not all speakers are the same. To think that the neutral position of the tone control is correct for all speakers or rooms is a bit on the naive side.
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post #52 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

Here the tone explained by my manual :
Tone Control Specifications Power Amplifier Section Rated ... Treble: ±12 dB at 10 kHz Bass: ±12 dB at 100 Hz

Did you simply try to turn down the treble??? It's not all that hard to do, it costs nothing, and maybe you might just like the results. If not, simply return the control to its' neutral position.
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post #53 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruadmaa View Post

Quite the opposite, I have found tone controls to be extremely valuable. Not all rooms are the same and not all speakers are the same. To think that the neutral position of the tone control is correct for all speakers or rooms is a bit on the naive side.

I did not say they were generally useless. I just personally never found them to be useful. Having tried them out in the past, I never found them to be helpful in improving the sound.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #54 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I got some good news, well for me...
After another hour of testing, it seem that adjusting the LFE to SUB ONLY instead of SUB + MAIN really added BASS into the MAIN, go figure !!! I had to remove most of the SUB (-8db) from the Stereo setting !

It was then aggressive because I had lot of Bass and trebles but I tweaked my stereo setting to enable my center channel who played right in the dead spot.
Now the sound is OK, no great but it is enjoyable !
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post #55 of 56 Old 09-14-2009, 05:06 PM
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Good to hear!

"Sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"
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post #56 of 56 Old 10-24-2009, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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LAST UPDATE : It Really was the AMP.
I just bought a Denon AVR-788. I played with it for about 20 min and the sound is amazing. My main speakers have plenty of bass and Audissey flat is wonderful for stereo music. It's like I have a brand new set of speakers.

I am really happy with the sound now. I don't need to add the sub when listeneing to a CD anymore and it also doesn't feel like the tweeter are gonna blow. Definition of the sound is also higher it is well balanced from bass trough very high end.
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