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post #1 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I really feel that my main speaker are underpowered right now. I fell like the tweeters are really too loud and the mid and bass speaker are not getting enough juice and I am afraid to drive it louder not to damage the tweeters.
Right now for movies it is good but when it come to music, it lack mid and bass, it seem that whatever I do I can't make my music sound good.

My Denon is rated 80w 8ohm per channel but my main speakers are rated 225w 8ohm.

I am looking for your help to choose a new and powerful receiver. I don't need HDMI and I prefer to buy "couple years old model" because most of the time I can find really good bargains on used equipment online.


Here's my current setup :
Amp DENON AVR-1803
Stereo Speakers : JBL Venue STADIUM
Center : JBL N CENTER
Sat : JBL Venue Tour
Sub : Sound Dynamics STR-800

I use my system 60% movies/tv and 40% music.
Room is 14x20


I really appreciate your suggestions, thank you for your help.
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post #2 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 05:31 PM
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If your tweeters are being over driven and the mid/subs are weak, that's not a power issue with the amp, unless you're noticing major clipping. Something else, like a blown crossover in the speakers or incorrect crossover settings on the receiver is the issue.

The amp only sends one power source to a speaker, not separate ones for each driver(unless you're talking about biamping and such). If your amp does 100 watts a channel, that's 100 watts total for everything contained in a single speaker. How the power gets divided up once it reaches the speaker depends on the speaker's crossover(if there's a passive crossover in the speaker, which there usually is) sending different frequencies and power amounts to each driver.

If the tweeters seem way too loud compared to the rest of the speaker it means the mid/subs are blown, the crossover in the speakers have been damaged somehow which is preventing the proper signal from reaching the drivers, or your receiver's crossover is set really really high so that most of the low frequencies are going straight to the sub which means your woofers in your speakers wouldn't be doing very much work at all.

Amp ratings are for max clean power(although how they come up with the numbers usually involves lots of tricks to overstate the true power). Speakers power ratings are generally max power handling ability. 200watt speakers dont require 200 watt amps, that just means they can handle that much current without blowing. Your receiver should be able to handle the speakers just fine.
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post #3 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 05:44 PM
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Well if they work good for movies I can't imagine why they wouldn't work well for music, unless you just don't like the way they speakers reproduce music. Not really seeing how any speaker could be blown if they work well in movies. Perhaps the settings for your music sources are different and need to be changed. Have you looked into the settings while listening to music? Sometimes I get so tired of everyone claiming that receivers should have no problem driving speakers, some speakers and some receivers just don't go well. At 80 watts with how many channels? Two, one?!! If you are listening to music in surround formats then the wattage is probably even lowwer. I know that every time I try to listen to music at higher volumes my receiver runs out of power, to the point the display actually dims and the amps clip. This happens when in stereo at rated 80watts per channel. With your speakers I cannot say. I would suggest checking your setting on your music sources first though.

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post #4 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for your help. I got Bass and mid true the JBL, it is there, i doubt the speakers are defective. While listening to movies, they are great !
When used for music, they are very thin, too much high definition and not enough mid or bottom.
I don't really enjoy music anymore, every time I play a CD I start playing with the DENON set-up because it doesn't sound like it should, but whatever I do it is not reaching my expectation.
Normally I use plain old Stereo for music, but it lack PUNCH and high are too bright. Right now I am using the 5 channel stereo and I modded it to only get the SUB and the center in with both Stereo (Center is giving me a bit more mid).

From the spec sheet of the receiver it is written
front 80w + 80w (20hz to 20khz 0.08 THD)
center 80w (20hz to 20khz 0.08 THD)
rear 80w + 80w (20hz to 20khz 0.08 THD)
rear 80w (20hz to 20khz 0.08 THD)
I think it means that it stays 80w in surround but I might be wrong.

I saw videos on youtube about the JBL Stadium where the two 8 inch woofer are moving crazy with the bass. Mine only vibrate a little while listening to high volume music.
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post #5 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 05:56 PM
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Well I just checked out the specs and at 91dB they should get fairly loud with the 80 watts your receiver is putting out. Are you listening in surround or stereo? Are you listening at high volumes? It could be if you are listening at high volumes that it is clipping the amps.

"Sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"
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post #6 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:10 PM
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Jackal your logic is a bit silly. You say the speakers can't be defective because you get bass from them while playing movies, just not with music. If that's the case then the same could be said about the amp. If it's driving them properly during movies then it cant be the amp either.

Music is 2 channel Movies are 5.1/7.1. Since music has no dedicated lfe channel, more than likely the situation that's going on is you have your speakers configured to small or have most low end being transfered to the sub. That's fine with movies, and if your sub is working properly you wouldnt be able to tell if the low end is really coming from your main speakers or from the sub as low frequencies are omnidirectional. But in music the amp simply doesnt send anything to the sub, so all you're getting is the mid/high range going to your two fronts.

More than likely you have something configured wrong. Buying a new receiver is a sure expensive way to figure out that probably wasn't a hardware issue at all.
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post #7 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritea View Post

Music is 2 channel Movies are 5.1/7.1. Since music has no dedicated lfe channel, more than likely the situation that's going on is you have your speakers configured to small or have most low end being transfered to the sub. That's fine with movies, and if your sub is working properly you wouldnt be able to tell if the low end is really coming from your main speakers or from the sub as low frequencies are omnidirectional. But in music the amp simply doesnt send anything to the sub, so all you're getting is the mid/high range going to your two fronts.

More than likely you have something configured wrong. Buying a new receiver is a sure expensive way to figure out that probably wasn't a hardware issue at all.

Don't jump to conclusions that anyone is listening in 2 channel just because it is music. Secondly there are many who are using 2.1 setups for music as well. However I will agree that there could really be something wrong within the setup for the OP's music sources.

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post #8 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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If I put a MUSIC DVD, like "the Last Waltz" the sound is great. As soon as I use Stereo, or any other mode to listen to a CD, it doesn't match what I want (I use the same Blue Ray player for CD and Movie).
When I bought the JBL, many reviewers said they had to turn down their sub while listening to music. Actually I had to turn Up my sub to get a little puch but I fell that I might have a -7b curve from 40 to 500hz, bottom of the curve would be around 250hz.
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post #9 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Don't jump to conclusions that anyone is listening in 2 channel just because it is music. Secondly there are many who are using 2.1 setups for music as well. However I will agree that there could really be something wrong within the setup for the OP's music sources.

Thanks for the tip, my config is MAIN+SUB for bass and LARGE as front speakers. Crossover is 100db.
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post #10 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:28 PM
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Does the setting for you level trims change when you switch to 2.1? Could be the LFE setting goes down when you change to stereo or any of the other settings. I am not familiar with your receiver in particular so I don't know if they change or not.

"Sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"
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post #11 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I just found a review about the Denon 1803 : http://denon-av.com/?page_id=171

"Detail is very good and the high mid and low frequencies have many of the characteristics dsecribed in surround modes above. Stereo imaging and separation are much better through the digital input. However, it does sound bright and this can be uncomfortable for prolonged stereo listening. The brightness is there whether I use the the line level or digital inputs. "

I guess I am not crazy....
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post #12 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Does the setting for you level trims change when you switch to 2.1? Could be the LFE setting goes down when you change to stereo or any of the other settings. I am not familiar with your receiver in particular so I don't know if they change or not.

Trimming do get more volume but doesn't fix the sound.

BTW thank you for all your help, I never seen so much people trying to help me !

I am passionate about AV stuff, and I really do enjoy sound.
My computer speakers are M-AUDIO AV 40 and they sound AMAZING, if only I could get a bit close to that sound with my main system I would be very happy.
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post #13 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Well I just checked out the specs and at 91dB they should get fairly loud with the 80 watts your receiver is putting out. Are you listening in surround or stereo? Are you listening at high volumes? It could be if you are listening at high volumes that it is clipping the amps.

It is definitively worst at high volume, and I am afraid to go beyond 0db because the tweeters are really loud.
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post #14 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:53 PM
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Sorry but without hearing it I am about out of ideas. The only other thing I could come up with is you just don't care for the speakers from a music stand point.

"Sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"
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post #15 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

It is definitively worst at high volume, and I am afraid to go beyond 0db because the tweeters are really loud.

Is it that they are loud or do they distort as well?

"Sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right"
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post #16 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Is it that they are loud or do they distort as well?

They are loud, I don't go higher than 0db not to damage them because at this volume the tweeters are very loud compare to both 8" and the 4".
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post #17 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Sorry but without hearing it I am about out of ideas. The only other thing I could come up with is you just don't care for the speakers from a music stand point.

So if I get it right, most people think it is a speaker issue. I was sure it was the receiver. Now I am confused, I need to find another good receiver to make some music test to see where the problem is.
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post #18 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 07:09 PM
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Do you listen to movies at the same volume levels? IF you are giving those speakers close to 80 watts you are probably around 90-95dB at you listening position. That is fairly loud. I am not going to get into the whole subject of receivers sounding different, however for those that do I seem to recall that many think Denons are on the bright side. If you have anyone you know who has another brand, Marantz, H/K or something of the such I would say give them a try. Or if you have a nice local shop see if they might let you "borrow" or audition in home one of theirs.

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post #19 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

So if I get it right, most people think it is a speaker issue. I was sure it was the receiver. Now I am confused, I need to find another good receiver to make some music test to see where the problem is.

Could well be a speaker and or room problem as well. The strange part is you say movies and music DVD's sound good, yet 2 channel or 2.1 sounds terrible.

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post #20 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Could well be a speaker and or room problem as well. The strange part is you say movies and music DVD's sound good, yet 2 channel or 2.1 sounds terrible.

5.1 Music DVD sound good. I never tried to go into the DVD set-up and lower them to stereo to see if it will still be good. I cannot test now, my wife and my daughter are sleeping.

Any suggestion about a lower mid range receiver for audiophile ? For what I could summarize of most of the Denon 1803 review, stereo is not a strength of this receiver.
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post #21 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Do you listen to movies at the same volume levels? IF you are giving those speakers close to 80 watts you are probably around 90-95dB at you listening position. That is fairly loud. I am not going to get into the whole subject of receivers sounding different, however for those that do I seem to recall that many think Denons are on the bright side. If you have anyone you know who has another brand, Marantz, H/K or something of the such I would say give them a try. Or if you have a nice local shop see if they might let you "borrow" or audition in home one of theirs.

I do listen to movie at 0db.
I was thinking about getting a H/K or Onkyo instead of the Denon. I really don't know where I can borrow a receiver but I am willing to buy a used one, test it and keep the best one while selling the old one.
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post #22 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 07:40 PM
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That is an option if you want to spend the money. I would stick to the H/K or Marantz myself. Those who feel there is a difference in receiver sounds seem to all agree these to have a warmer sound to them. If you have a local A/V specialty store around you can check with them to see wha they offer. Some of them will allow you to have in home auditions, especially if you spend a bit of time just chatting with them. Or there are used places to buy from, audiogon, right here, you have accessories4less and the likes. I like to buy my stuff local as I usually get as good or better prices than online. You may also think of trying some different speakers in home.

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post #23 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

Thanks for the tip, my config is MAIN+SUB for bass and LARGE as front speakers. Crossover is 100db.

Well I think that is it right there. If you have your crossover at 100 hz you aren't sending much bass to your mains, it's being routed to the sub. Maybe what is happening is when you listen to music DVD the bass is routed to the sub but when you listen to 2ch it's not being routed anywhere and you are cutting out everything under 100hz. If you can set the crossover per speaker lower it for the mains to whatever they can handle or if you can only set the system crossover lower the crossover when you listen to music in stereo and see if that helps and then bring the crossover back to 100hz when you use your surrounds.
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post #24 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 09:38 PM
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Seems to me though that when a processor is set to send signals to the LFE it does just that, then if the setting changes to 2 channel there is no processing so all frequncies goto the L/R. If the processing stays as it was for the rest of it then the LFE will still be getting all of the sub 100hz information. I know on mine when I have it in multi channel the LFE gets what is is supposed to, when in 2 channel it goes full range to the L/R. The OP should look into what the settings are when in 2 channel mode though for sure.

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post #25 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 11:01 PM
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In my experience, all receivers sound bad if you push them too much. At that point your best option is simply to reduce volume. And consider external amplification.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #26 of 56 Old 09-12-2009, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbare View Post

Seems to me though that when a processor is set to send signals to the LFE it does just that, then if the setting changes to 2 channel there is no processing so all frequncies goto the L/R. If the processing stays as it was for the rest of it then the LFE will still be getting all of the sub 100hz information. I know on mine when I have it in multi channel the LFE gets what is is supposed to, when in 2 channel it goes full range to the L/R. The OP should look into what the settings are when in 2 channel mode though for sure.

That's kind of what I was thinking is there is some setting in 2 channel mode that is applying the crossover instead of sending full range to his L/R. Should be easy to test if he lowers the crossover listening in 2 channel and it doesn't make a difference he can rule out that the crossover is causing it and if it does correct the issue he can try and adjust his settings to get full range to his L/R.
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post #27 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 02:08 AM
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It could be the music/recordings you are listening to. There are many bad recordings out there. Try a recording that you DO like on your computer system to see how it sounds on your main system.

Since the problem is present at lower volume levels, too, I think you may just not like your speakers for the recordings you are listening to. Try a different recording. Or different speakers.

Also, the specs on a receiver often don't match the actual output. Many receivers will put out more than their specs in 2-channel mode (and much less than the spec with all channels driven).

-Max
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post #28 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxcooper View Post

It could be the music/recordings you are listening to. There are many bad recordings out there. Try a recording that you DO like on your computer system to see how it sounds on your main system.

Since the problem is present at lower volume levels, too, I think you may just not like your speakers for the recordings you are listening to. Try a different recording. Or different speakers.

Also, the specs on a receiver often don't match the actual output. Many receivers will put out more than their specs in 2-channel mode (and much less than the spec with all channels driven).

-Max

Thank you, I do always use the same CD for calibration... Receiver is set-up to send 100hz and less to BOTH MAIN speakers and LFE. I will test removing the SUB from the set-up to see if it is better.
Weird like noone think it is the receiver fault ! Thanks for all the tips.
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post #29 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 04:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaCKeL_521 View Post

If I put a MUSIC DVD, like "the Last Waltz" the sound is great. As soon as I use Stereo, or any other mode to listen to a CD, it doesn't match what I want (I use the same Blue Ray player for CD and Movie).
When I bought the JBL, many reviewers said they had to turn down their sub while listening to music. Actually I had to turn Up my sub to get a little puch but I fell that I might have a -7b curve from 40 to 500hz, bottom of the curve would be around 250hz.

Have you tried something really simple like turning up the bass with the tone controls on your receiver?
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post #30 of 56 Old 09-13-2009, 04:57 AM
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I don't like the idea of sending bass/LFE to both the mains and the sub. If you want bass from the L/R channel, set your mains to large. But sending LFE to your mains and your sub seems like it would be non optimal.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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