*Official* Pioneer Elite VSX-21/23THX Owners Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I don't have that player, but most of them have some bass management for their analog output and will let you select "Small" for the main speakers. If you do, the player will direct bass to the subwoofer via analog connections even when there is no .1 LFE channel.

I'm puzzled by your problem using HDMI, though. I've used HDMI for SACD's extensively with both an SC-07 and a VSX-01 without any problem. I almost never have the TV on when I do that. In fact, I was just listening to an SACD over HDMI (TV off) moments ago before going online. I doubt anything has changed with the VSX-23 in that regard.

It's probably a quirk with your TV. Does your TV have an HDMI Control-type feature? If so, try turning it off.

Okay, now you guys have me wondering whats going on. MacFan could you please share with me what player you use for SACD, and what TV you have. Also what are your settings that enable playing music over HDMI with the TV off.

I'm probably going to wind up spending the day trying to set this up now. My TV is the Samsung 67A750, and I thought I turned off the HDMI-CEC feature, but I'll recheck all of this stuff.

If its possible to play music over HDMI with the TV Off, then I want to do it. And unless I'm wrong Amherst I do not think the 79AVi has the ability to play SACD over HDMI. I'll need to put the the VSX-23 back in, with the DV-48 or I might try the Oppo 970 I have lying around to see if that works.
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post #722 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

1) harmony programming issue... try putting a delay in between the power on and the input select... also, when you hit "help" on the remote, does it switch to the correct input? also, pressing the activity button again should not cause the receiver to shut off. that indicates another programming issue. rather than try to chase it down, just delete the activity and set it up again, being careful with the different options it asks you about.

2) while 15 seconds is a bit long, that's normal behaviour... now that there is a repeater in between the source and the sink, there's more "stuff" going on...

Thanks Ccotenj, I'll give those a go. I think I might know what's causing some of my problems is that I've upgraded from a Pio VXS 1017 and added the 23 onto the Harmony remote. It might be causing some issues.

Oh, and regarding the TV, I managed to get my hands on a Proscan that picks up the HDMI signal in about three seconds, so I'm going with the Westinghouse being slow in this one. :P

Anyway, thanks again and I'm gonna redo the remote when I get a chance.
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post #723 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson57 View Post

Okay, now you guys have me wondering whats going on. MacFan could you please share with me what player you use for SACD, and what TV you have. Also what are your settings that enable playing music over HDMI with the TV off...

I have a Yamaha C961 and an Oppo 981 (also a Sony SCD-CE595, but it doesn't have HDMI). Both have worked flawlessly with both my VSX-01 and SC-07 with any settings I've used with them, including various formulations of HDMI Control (aka KuroLink). My TV is a Pioneer Kuro PDP-5080. Currently, HDMI Control is Off, as I am using SR+. I've never had an issue with having to have the TV on to play SACD's or anything else over HDMI.

HDMI Control is kinky, though, as similar functionality is used by different manufacturers, but they are not 100% compatible brand to brand, or even model to model within the same brand (I discovered that things that worked on my 5080 would not work on other Kuros).

If something isn't working properly via HDMI, the first thing I'd do is turn HDMI Control Off on every piece of equipment that has it or its equivalent. If the problem goes away, and I wanted the function, I'd turn it back on one piece at a time until it started causing a problem again. In the end, I decided it was more trouble than its worth to me, but YMMV.
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post #724 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I have a Yamaha C961 and an Oppo 981 (also a Sony SCD-CE595, but it doesn't have HDMI). Both have worked flawlessly with both my VSX-01 and SC-07 with any settings I've used with them, including various formulations of HDMI Control (aka KuroLink). My TV is a Pioneer Kuro PDP-5080. Currently, HDMI Control is Off, as I am using SR+. I've never had an issue with having to have the TV on to play SACD's or anything else over HDMI.

HDMI Control is kinky, though, as similar functionality is used by different manufacturers, but they are not 100% compatible brand to brand, or even model to model within the same brand (I discovered that things that worked on my 5080 would not work on other Kuros).

If something isn't working properly via HDMI, the first thing I'd do is turn HDMI Control Off on every piece of equipment that has it or its equivalent. If the problem goes away, and I wanted the function, I'd turn it back on one piece at a time until it started causing a problem again. In the end, I decided it was more trouble than its worth to me, but YMMV.

Thanks for the feedback MacFan, I do believe the issue is with my particular television. Not the end of the world though everything still sounds fantastic with my Anthem. I'll set the VSX-23 up in another room soon and try some different equipment with it to see how it works.

Both you and ccotenj have been great resources, and I have appreciated the input you guys have provided on this forum.
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post #725 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 10:26 AM
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What are the crossover options with either the 21/23 when speakers are set to small? Is the lowest available 80hz?

"Dang! You got shocks, pegs... lucky! You ever take it off any sweet jumps? "

Sony 55EX500 Settings
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post #726 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cburbs View Post

What are the crossover options with either the 21/23 when speakers are set to small? Is the lowest available 80hz?

The lowest is 50Hz, although if you use it you will cut off LFE above that point. It's a good choice for many speakers for two channel music, but not recommended for anything with an LFE (.1) channel. Other available crossover points are 100, 150 and 200 Hz. In most setups, the best choice is 80Hz.
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post #727 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 02:48 PM
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I just got done working with the Harmony remote program in deleting the other receiver and adjusting the delay and everything it working as expected. So, all is well.

Well, at least with the remote. Now I've gotta decide if I'd rather deal with the delay or get a new TV. The fun of upgrading.
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post #728 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 03:07 PM
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^^^

cool, glad you got it working...

new tv! new tv! new tv!

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #729 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBH2 View Post

...Now I've gotta decide if I'd rather deal with the delay or get a new TV...

This is a decision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

...new tv! new tv! new tv!

The only answer! Many an upgrade has been made with less provocation.
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post #730 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amherst View Post

I should see my 23 within the upcoming week. When I get it I will try the sacd over hdmi with both the 79avi and I also have an oppo bd player, so I will see if that source reacts the same.... curious. Will try shutting off video within the AVR, as suggested.

no can do for sacd from the 79avi over hdmi... ilink or analog only...

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post #731 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

This is a decision?

should be an easy one... especially for what new flat panels are going for these days... you can get killer deals on plasmas these days... consider it a contribution to getting the economy back on it's feet again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

The only answer! Many an upgrade has been made with less provocation.

man, you are NOT kidding about that... heck, i've "upgraded" to the same exact speakers just to get a different finish...

- chris

 

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post #732 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 05:48 PM
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Got my 21 hooked up for the most part. I am a bit lost in all the dsp modes for multi channel playback and what they mean. I get what pure direct does but from there it gets weird. What is the actual difference between these? If you have 7.1 channels I mean:

THX Surround EX - Allows you to hear 6.1 or 7.1
channel playback with 5.1 channel sources7
2 Pro Logic IIx MOVIE+THX CINEMA5
THX Select2 CINEMA5 - Allows you to hear 7.1
channel playback with 5.1 channel sources
2 Pro Logic IIx MUSIC+THX MUSIC
THX Select2 MUSIC5- This mode is suited not only for
sources recorded in Dolby Digital and DTS, but also to
all multi-channel music sources (DVD-Audio, etc.).
THX Select2 GAMES

Are all these modes 7.1? If so they sound sort of redundant and hard to tell what the difference is.

Then you have advanced sound which seems to be pure DSP and not seperate channels correct? What I mean is when you are using advanced surround you are not using PLIIx or THX modes any longer so are you limited to 5.1?
ACTION - Designed for action movies with dynamic
soundtracks
DRAMA - Designed for movies with lots of dialog
SCI-FI - Designed for science fiction with lots of
special effects
MONO FILM - Creates surround sound from mono
soundtracks
ENT.SHOW - Suitable for musical sources
EXPANDED - Creates an extra wide stereo field2
TV SURROUND - Provides surround sound for both
mono and stereo TV sources
ADVANCED GAME - Suitable for video games
SPORTS - Suitable for sports programs
CLASSICAL - Gives a large concert hall-type sound
ROCK/POP - Creates a live concert sound for rock
and/or pop music
UNPLUGGED - Suitable for acoustic music sources
EXT.STEREO - Gives multichannel sound to a stereo
source, using all of your speakers
PHONES SURR - When listening through
headphones.
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post #733 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 06:01 PM
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first group...

yes, they will all sound different (although necessarily at first blush) and do different things... you should experiment with those...

second group...

those have always sounded "fake" to me, and after playing with them in the first avr i had with them, have never bothered with them since... some do like them though...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #734 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 06:23 PM
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When you say first group does differnt things, where can I go read about them. The second replaces PLIIx and THX correct?
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post #735 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 06:29 PM
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the dolby and thx websites would be a good place to start...

i'm not sure what you mean by "replaces"?

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #736 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 06:39 PM
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anybody out here that had the pioneer 1019 and the 21/23 is it a worth upgrade sound wise? does it sound any louder than the pioneer 1019? my room is 15x40 and the pioneer 1019 sounded excellent, just not loud
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post #737 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 06:42 PM
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^^^

speakers? how far away are you sitting? any other details would be helpful.

15X40 is a pretty large area to fill...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #738 of 3525 Old 12-06-2009, 08:25 PM
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for the fronts i have polk rp20t and center is a polk 350 and than i have two infinity 360, i plan on getting two more infinity speakers, sitting distance right now is within 10 feet, once i get a projector it will be 12to16feet, i am just curios are the21/23 louder than the 1019, i found that the 1019 only does 28 watts all channels driven, i know the 21/23 have better amps but still wondering if somebody has had both and can confirm that 21/23 is louder than the 1019!!!
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post #739 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 06:29 AM
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Question, cause I'm impatient. I have an Axiom system, sounds great but a tad bright. I also like more mid to low freq's. I plan on bi-amping the mains. does the EQ provide for separate adjusting of the bi-amped SB channel used in this situation?
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post #740 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 06:37 AM
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^^^

no.

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #741 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popmasina View Post

for the fronts i have polk rp20t and center is a polk 350 and than i have two infinity 360, i plan on getting two more infinity speakers, sitting distance right now is within 10 feet, once i get a projector it will be 12to16feet, i am just curios are the21/23 louder than the 1019, i found that the 1019 only does 28 watts all channels driven, i know the 21/23 have better amps but still wondering if somebody has had both and can confirm that 21/23 is louder than the 1019!!!

I have tried both 1019 and 21, the latter definitely sounds louder, with 110 watts 7 channel driven. 1019 only has an effective all channel output of 90 watts. It is not the only thing that matters, 21 has a better power supply and amp section which gives a more punchy SQ and a deeper sound stage. 21 weighs 10 lbs more than 1019. Other features of the two are very similar though.
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post #742 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhferry View Post

Got my 21 hooked up for the most part. I am a bit lost in all the dsp modes for multi channel playback and what they mean. I get what pure direct does but from there it gets weird. What is the actual difference between these? If you have 7.1 channels I mean:

THX Surround EX – Allows you to hear 6.1 or 7.1
channel playback with 5.1 channel sources7
• 2 Pro Logic IIx MOVIE+THX CINEMA5
• THX Select2 CINEMA5 – Allows you to hear 7.1
channel playback with 5.1 channel sources
• 2 Pro Logic IIx MUSIC+THX MUSIC
• THX Select2 MUSIC5– This mode is suited not only for
sources recorded in Dolby Digital and DTS, but also to
all multi-channel music sources (DVD-Audio, etc.).
• THX Select2 GAMES

Are all these modes 7.1? If so they sound sort of redundant and hard to tell what the difference is.

They may seem redundant at first blush, but they are all slightly different, and many of us develop definite preferences over time.

To over simplify, in general the Movie/Cinema settings emphasize the center channel, while the Music settings tend to send more information to the right/left channels. Game settings tend to add emphasis to the surround channels.

Dolby PLIIx and DTS Neo 6 are two different companies ways to create surround sound out of 2 channel or matrixed input, or add rear channels to 5.1 input. Some people think PLIIx alters the tonal balance less, while Neo 6 has more bass emphasis creating a "warmer" sound.

THX processing is applied on top of DTS or DD decoding. It uses several sophisticated algorithms to alter the sound to better suit a home environment. (Whether you agree or disagree with their approach is a matter of personal preference.) THX EX is basically a 6 channel system, sending the same signal to both rear speakers. THX Cinema attempts to create separate sounds in each, and is intended to be used with an ASA rear speaker setup, as is THX Music with 5.1 music sources.

Quote:


Then you have advanced sound which seems to be pure DSP and not seperate channels correct? What I mean is when you are using advanced surround you are not using PLIIx or THX modes any longer so are you limited to 5.1?
• ACTION – Designed for action movies with dynamic
soundtracks
• DRAMA – Designed for movies with lots of dialog
• SCI-FI – Designed for science fiction with lots of
special effects
• MONO FILM – Creates surround sound from mono
soundtracks
• ENT.SHOW – Suitable for musical sources
• EXPANDED – Creates an extra wide stereo field2
• TV SURROUND – Provides surround sound for both
mono and stereo TV sources
• ADVANCED GAME – Suitable for video games
• SPORTS – Suitable for sports programs
• CLASSICAL – Gives a large concert hall-type sound
• ROCK/POP – Creates a live concert sound for rock
and/or pop music
• UNPLUGGED – Suitable for acoustic music sources
• EXT.STEREO – Gives multichannel sound to a stereo
source, using all of your speakers
• PHONES SURR – When listening through
headphones.

These are all specialized DSP modes, which create various effects using proprietary digital processing techniques. They will use all channels in a 7.1 setup.

Whether they are useful to you depends upon your taste. They tend to be more obvious alterations of the originals than the Standard modes. They can be useful in special situations.

For example, I enjoy the Sports setting which enhances the crowd noise in the rear channels and have found the Mono Film setting to improve some (not all) old movie sound tracks. Several members seem to use EXT.STEREO to send stereo to all seven speakers, which is loud if nothing else.

As chris said, experiment. It's the only way to find out which settings you might like.

Or you could just use the Auto Surround mode and let the AVR decide for you.
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post #743 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

I have a Yamaha C961 and an Oppo 981 (also a Sony SCD-CE595, but it doesn't have HDMI). Both have worked flawlessly with both my VSX-01 and SC-07 with any settings I've used with them, including various formulations of HDMI Control (aka KuroLink). My TV is a Pioneer Kuro PDP-5080. Currently, HDMI Control is Off, as I am using SR+. I've never had an issue with having to have the TV on to play SACD's or anything else over HDMI.

HDMI Control is kinky, though, as similar functionality is used by different manufacturers, but they are not 100% compatible brand to brand, or even model to model within the same brand (I discovered that things that worked on my 5080 would not work on other Kuros).

If something isn't working properly via HDMI, the first thing I'd do is turn HDMI Control Off on every piece of equipment that has it or its equivalent. If the problem goes away, and I wanted the function, I'd turn it back on one piece at a time until it started causing a problem again. In the end, I decided it was more trouble than its worth to me, but YMMV.

Hi, for a fwiw...
I also have the VSX 21, and Pio 5080, too, (and a sony 550 bd player). All HDMI linked (Kuro off)
I could not get the AVR to play CDs without the TV on. I would get "HDCP Error" message from the AVR.
To workaround, I created a new input for CDs using a coaxial in. I realize that won't help the SACD via hdmi issue
MacFan, you mention SACDs over HDMI without TV on, but can you also play CDs via HDMI without your TV on? Thanks
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post #744 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
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Hi, for a fwiw...
I also have the VSX 21, and Pio 5080, too, (and a sony 550 bd player). All HDMI linked (Kuro off)
I could not get the AVR to play CDs without the TV on. I would get "HDCP Error" message from the AVR.
To workaround, I created a new input for CDs using a coaxial in. I realize that won't help the SACD via hdmi issue
MacFan, you mention SACDs over HDMI without TV on, but can you also play CDs via HDMI without your TV on? Thanks

Yes I can. Never had a problem with either my VSX-01 or SC-07 playing CDs, SACDs or DVD-As on my Yamaha or Oppo SACD/DVD players with the TV off. I've used an Onkyo DVD non-SACD changer with regular CD's via HDMI as well.

Maybe Pioneer did make a change in the 2x series, although I can't imagine why they would "fix" something that wasn't broken.

Many players have an option to turn the video off when playing audio discs. If your Sony has that, would activating it help? It makes no difference with mine, but might be worth a try.
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post #745 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabkab View Post

I don't know for sure, but I think it is the DTV box's issue, not the AVR's port--could be wrong. I think it will overide, but you need to go to the Menu in the 23 and assign the specific digital input to your TV/Sat(or whichever) input. Again, I didn't try this. There is the dealbreaker fix which would be to use Component video and your digital input. I did test that scenario and noticed a softness to the picture I didn't like. I know the other fix(turning of DD) works and it's easy. Let me know if it does override the HDMI audio. In the manual, I know at least for video, HDMI is given higest priority, but other lines such as composite video still input simutaneously on the same avr input as evidenced by my zone 2 video working because I run a parallel set of RCA cables for A/V.

I have the 21 and a Dish Vip722 and have experienced this problem with loosing audio on the non-DD channels. What I did was to hook up both an optical cable as well as the HDMI. The trick is to cycle through the audio source choices with 'Input Select' on the remote. Just hooking up the cables and setting up the input menu is not sufficient , you must select the optical audio source via the remote. This has worked flawlessly for the last 2 or 3 weeks.

The only other thing that might work, which I have been too lazy to try, is to explicitly select the HDMI audio input as opposed to leaving it in Auto. It might be that Auto is getting confused, erroneously selecting a dead input. But, like I said, the optical line is working for me so I've left it as is.
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post #746 of 3525 Old 12-07-2009, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

Yes I can. Never had a problem with either my VSX-01 or SC-07 playing CDs, SACDs or DVD-As on my Yamaha or Oppo SACD/DVD players with the TV off. I've used an Onkyo DVD non-SACD changer with regular CD's via HDMI as well.

Maybe Pioneer did make a change in the 2x series, although I can't imagine why they would "fix" something that wasn't broken.

Many players have an option to turn the video off when playing audio discs. If your Sony has that, would activating it help? It makes no difference with mine, but might be worth a try.

This is interesting...I have a 21TXH and my kid was playing Christmas music over CD via HDMI on my Panasonic DMP-BD55 blu-ray player. When I turned off the tv to save energy, the music stopped cold until I turned the tv back on. I do have a Pioneer DV-48AV universal player also hooked up via HDMI that I will have to test this on as well.
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post #747 of 3525 Old 12-08-2009, 01:02 AM
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Hi

I got a VSX-21TXH 2 weeks ago. Hooked it up, and it's running nicely except for 1 issue I'm having.

My current setup is as follows

DVB-S Receiver --- HDMI input 1 ---> VSX-21TXH --- HDMI out ---> Panny Plasma

My DVB-S receiver is an HD receiver. I'm passing the DVB-S receiver signal to the VSX-21TXH untouched.

As of this time, most DVB-S channels are in SD, with only a few of them in HD. The problem I'm having is that I can't get the VSX-21TXH to upscale the SD channels to 1080p. I checked the manual and in page 68 it indicates that I should set the Video Options. However when I try to access the Video Options on the HDMI Input 1, the front display of the VSX-21TXH says "NOT AVAILABLE"

Can anyone point me in the right direction please

Thanks

Anyone please?
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post #748 of 3525 Old 12-08-2009, 01:35 AM
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Anyone please?

Basically, anything connected to the avr won't be touched as far as scaling and upconverting go. If you want to be able to upconvert sd, then it will be necessary to connect the dvb to the avr via component video cables.
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post #749 of 3525 Old 12-08-2009, 01:55 AM
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Has anyone found a professionally prepared review of the Pioneer VSX-23 anywhere on the web yet?

I'm still using my Pioneer Elite VSX-05 and am looking to do an upgrade sometime in the next year or so.

(Bonus Question for you Pioneer afficionadoes: When did the VSX-05 come out?)

Onkyo HT-RC 180 AVR
Oppo BDP-80 Blu-ray player
Shaw Motorola HD 3400 PVR
Toshiba Regza 52RV535U 52" LCD HDTV
Magnepan MMG speakers
JBL surround speakers
Soundstage 8" subwoofer
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post #750 of 3525 Old 12-08-2009, 05:33 AM
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^^^

- i haven't seen one...

- an oldie but a goodie... hmm... late 90's, iirc... 1997 or 1998 maybe?...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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