Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 108 - AVS Forum
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post #3211 of 3236 Old 07-14-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Augmont View Post
Output isn't my issue, xo points are but if they are related than that makes sense.
Adjusting the crossover point of your sub(s) will change the Trinnov crossover. I have 2 separate calcs, one for movies, one for music.

I have a 7.2 setup w/ all spkrs full range. With the sub crossovers bypassed, Trinnov sets the spkr crossover at 80hz. By lowering the sub crossovers to 60hz, Trinnov sets the spkrs at 40hz.

Multi-channel music sounds better to me w/ the lower crossover.
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post #3212 of 3236 Old 07-15-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by .jss designs View Post
Adjusting the crossover point of your sub(s) will change the Trinnov crossover. I have 2 separate calcs, one for movies, one for music.

I have a 7.2 setup w/ all spkrs full range. With the sub crossovers bypassed, Trinnov sets the spkr crossover at 80hz. By lowering the sub crossovers to 60hz, Trinnov sets the spkrs at 40hz.

Multi-channel music sounds better to me w/ the lower crossover.
thanks.......I'll keep playing with the sub's controls until i get it dialed in. My inexperience/knowledge (i.e. human error) continues to be the weakest link in my setup.
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post #3213 of 3236 Old 08-23-2014, 11:19 AM
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So....I decided to sell my AC4L A-stock R-972 because I have the Denon AVR-A100. But then I wanted to try Tinnov on the cheap again and found a refurbished unit on Amazon.




I tried checking the firmware version with Display+Enter, but it only displays: 80 40 21 00 00


I don't know what that means...
Will anyone with the 1.47 version respond with what they see in the VFD when pressing Display+Enter on the R-972?
Also tried to do the 1.47 upgrade. I have a working laptop with an RS-232 port, and RS-232 cable, and a gender bender for the R-972. Verified that the RS-232 lines are correct but the update program just won't talk to the R-972 .
HDMI2-4 are not working. I'm going to open it up and look for a loose connection...


On the plus side, I got a sweet calibration yesterday and am loving the seemless sound-field at the sweet spot.
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post #3214 of 3236 Old 08-23-2014, 12:24 PM
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Here's what I see when I hit display + enter:

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post #3215 of 3236 Old 08-23-2014, 12:45 PM
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twells, thanks for the reply! I was checking with the power on. Noticed that you had the unit in standby, so I checked mine in standby and it is indeed already at 1.47.

I also double-checked the pin connections on my rs-232 with gender bender, and the TX-RX lines are crossed from the laptop to the R-972. Not sure why they won't talk, or why the update program never times out (well, at least for 30 minutes).

I didn't find any loose connections inside of the R-972. Reseated most of them just to be sure.

Repair service may be needed to get HDMI2-4 working.
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post #3216 of 3236 Old 08-25-2014, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post
twells, thanks for the reply! I was checking with the power on. Noticed that you had the unit in standby, so I checked mine in standby and it is indeed already at 1.47.

I also double-checked the pin connections on my rs-232 with gender bender, and the TX-RX lines are crossed from the laptop to the R-972. Not sure why they won't talk, or why the update program never times out (well, at least for 30 minutes).

I didn't find any loose connections inside of the R-972. Reseated most of them just to be sure.

Repair service may be needed to get HDMI2-4 working.
I had HDMI 2-4 go out on me too, I sent it in for service and they had to replace the HDMI board (HDMI 1 is physically separate) It worked great then went out again less than a year later.
Currently I am using a remote control HDMI spliter because I did not want to spend another $50+ to ship it back to Sherwood only to potentially have it fail again.
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post #3217 of 3236 Old 10-01-2014, 06:19 AM
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Any owners of this unit around Kansas City who would be interested in comparing their unit directly against other avrs with audyssey, mcacc, yapo, arc, dirac, etc? This comparison at a g2g with other avs forum enthusiasts in early November?
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post #3218 of 3236 Old 10-04-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Any owners of this unit around Kansas City who would be interested in comparing their unit directly against other avrs with audyssey, mcacc, yapo, arc, dirac, etc? This comparison at a g2g with other avs forum enthusiasts in early November?
Wish I was closer, 5+ hours is a little to far away
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post #3219 of 3236 Old 10-04-2014, 05:43 PM
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Wish I was closer, 5+ hours is a little to far away
If I was 5-6 hours away I would consider making the run, but that is quite a commitment.
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post #3220 of 3236 Old 10-10-2014, 10:51 PM
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The G2G thread is up...I'm sorry to be a nuisance, but I'd really love to have one of these Trinnov units in our comparison. I've heard a lot of good things about the technology.
Here's to hoping somebody is close enough to be interested in participating!
Archaea's Auto room EQ/AVR comparison G2G - November 8, 2014 - Kansas City

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #3221 of 3236 Old 10-26-2014, 11:19 PM
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How does the R-972 handle dipole surrounds? Any issues with calibration?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3222 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
How does the R-972 handle dipole surrounds? Any issues with calibration?
I used dipole surrounds with my 972 for 2 years,
My right surround is 13 feet away. Once in awhile
I would get the dreaded 9 bursts from that channel.
All the other 3 Energy RVSS had no problem so distance
might have been an issue.

Just upgraded to 4 Kef E301's to go with my 3 Ls50's.
No issues with calibrating those. Because of the diffuse
sound of the dipoles the Trinnov has a harder time locating
them.

Steve
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post #3223 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 07:35 AM
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Just upgraded to 4 Kef E301's to go with my 3 Ls50's.
No issues with calibrating those. Because of the diffuse
sound of the dipoles the Trinnov has a harder time locating
them.

Steve
Thanks for the info Steve. How do you like the surround now that you're not using dipoles? Less diffuse? Can your ear localize the surround speakers?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3224 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 10:06 AM
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Chris

I find the detail from sides much more distinct.
The rear surrounds are much nicer being point source.
My room is 30x12 with sloping 16 foot ceilings.
Has always been a difficult room until I got the
972.

Steve
P.S. I have stored away the dipoles in case I
find the need to switch back but I don't see that
happening.
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post #3225 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
How does the R-972 handle dipole surrounds? Any issues with calibration?
Yes, that was part of the reason I ditched my first 972.

Noah
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post #3226 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 02:04 PM
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Chris

I find the detail from sides much more distinct.
So, I guess this is all academic - my R-972 is in transit and I'll found out soon enough what the sound field is like. But I'm wondering about how the claim that the Trinnov processing produces a surround soundfield which is frequently called "seamless" works with monopole side and rear surround speakers. I ask because people frequently complain that monopole side surrounds are too localizable - not diffuse. Localization seems like the opposite of a "seamless" field of sound. Does the Trinnov processing somehow split the surround signals among multiple monopole speakers (side and rear surrounds maybe) to produce a diffuse effect despite working with monopoles?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3227 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
So, I guess this is all academic - my R-972 is in transit and I'll found out soon enough what the sound field is like. But I'm wondering about how the claim that the Trinnov processing produces a surround soundfield which is frequently called "seamless" works with monopole side and rear surround speakers. I ask because people frequently complain that monopole side surrounds are too localizable - not diffuse. Localization seems like the opposite of a "seamless" field of sound. Does the Trinnov processing somehow split the surround signals among multiple monopole speakers (side and rear surrounds maybe) to produce a diffuse effect despite working with monopoles?
Chris

The best feature of the 972 is it's seamless meld between the
high pass and subs.
There are many, many ways to configure the Trinnov.
It can be quite daunting. Start with a basic setup and then
start to experiment with 3D remapping. This can really surprise
you. The various EQ settings can also be a challenge.
I tend to use none to get a feel for the sound and try out the
various choices. Natural seems to be popular.
If your room is live the Cinema setting can help tame it.

One thing not really mentioned in the owners manual is
the ability to take a source say Apple TV and assign it
to Video 4 with 2 channel EQ and also as Video 5 with
7.1 with 3D remapping. One button push and you flip
between straight 2 channel or multi channel audio.

My side surrounds are in the back corners of a big open
room so I can't speak to dipole preference. I know DS-21
loves his dipole sides for multi channel music!

Stev
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post #3228 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
Does the Trinnov processing somehow split the surround signals among multiple monopole speakers (side and rear surrounds maybe) to produce a diffuse effect despite working with monopoles?
It does that to remap speakers to where they aren't, though everything does that when panning a sound from one location to another.

I'm speculating, but the Trinnov "secret" may be the way it reconstructs the desired soundfield using wavefiel synthesis, and/or the fact that its RC corrects speaker phase as well as amplitude response, presumably giving a more cohesive soundfield.

Noah
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post #3229 of 3236 Old 10-27-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tr4a View Post
Chris

The best feature of the 972 is it's seamless meld between the
high pass and subs.
There are many, many ways to configure the Trinnov.
It can be quite daunting. Start with a basic setup and then
start to experiment with 3D remapping. This can really surprise
you. The various EQ settings can also be a challenge.
I tend to use none to get a feel for the sound and try out the
various choices. Natural seems to be popular.
If your room is live the Cinema setting can help tame it.

One thing not really mentioned in the owners manual is
the ability to take a source say Apple TV and assign it
to Video 4 with 2 channel EQ and also as Video 5 with
7.1 with 3D remapping. One button push and you flip
between straight 2 channel or multi channel audio.

My side surrounds are in the back corners of a big open
room so I can't speak to dipole preference. I know DS-21
loves his dipole sides for multi channel music!

Stev

Welcome, Chris! Good to have some new blood here. And everything Steve says is on target IMO.


Let's put it this way: with the right care and feeding (a/k/a the learning curve), even the DSP form of Trinnov in roughly six year old technology has flexibility that you can't get from a consumer version of Audyssey XT32. As long as you can address its shortcomings with separate amplification and auxiliary devices like an Oppo or Apple TV, it's a great processor. Further, you can have up to three separate calibrations (positions), and reading Curt Hoyt's notes (see the R-972 Trinnov Notes thread for details), you can get some creative configurations to experiment with. However, the major downside IMO today is that this processor was designed in a pre 3D audio world, so you're left out of the Atmos/Auro game. But if that's fine with you, you'll enjoy this unit.


Warning: Trinnov is addictive, and with enough of a fix, you'll think seriously about moving to a SOTA "full" Trinnov unit (the MC or the Magnitude for multichannel runtime capability, or the cutting edge Altitude that supports Atmos/Auro and up to 32 channels as a pre/pro) if you've the funds. One thing at a time... .

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

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Last edited by sdrucker; 10-27-2014 at 04:40 PM.
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post #3230 of 3236 Old 10-28-2014, 08:21 AM
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Welcome, Chris! Good to have some new blood here. And everything Steve says is on target IMO.
+1....and if you can get pass the quirks like most have, this is an awesome unit.
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post #3231 of 3236 Old 10-28-2014, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
So, I guess this is all academic - my R-972 is in transit and I'll found out soon enough what the sound field is like. But I'm wondering about how the claim that the Trinnov processing produces a surround soundfield which is frequently called "seamless" works with monopole side and rear surround speakers. I ask because people frequently complain that monopole side surrounds are too localizable - not diffuse. Localization seems like the opposite of a "seamless" field of sound. Does the Trinnov processing somehow split the surround signals among multiple monopole speakers (side and rear surrounds maybe) to produce a diffuse effect despite working with monopoles?
It is all about placement, and proper integration...without it, localization will happen.

Trinnov helps to alleviate these issues, and does it well.

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post #3232 of 3236 Old 10-28-2014, 11:05 AM
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+1....and if you can get pass the quirks like most have, this is an awesome unit.
After almost a year, I've only got two "quirk" related issues. Remember, my existing setup has an Oppo 103 do the decoding for BD and two HDMI input sources, then send via LPCM to the Sherwood, which in turn is pre-out to a Denon 4311. Thus the R-972 effectively is a 40 lb runtime box for DSP Trinnov, except with five presets rather than the larger set in the full Trinnov processors.


a) Aside from the five second or so delay when switching a source, I occasionally have to reset the HDMI chain by power cycling my Oppo, the Sherwood, and the Denon AVR I use as amp source, in whatever order seems to work that day given the other Denon-based sources, like Internet radio, I might be using. Not difficult, and not necessarily related to the R-972, but I didn't have the same issue before the Sherwood was in the signal chain.

b) I don't use the Sherwood for any amplification in my current 7.1 setup. However, even so, I've sent it into protection mode a few times (not the Denon "amp", though) by playing certain content near reference, notably the pod race in "The Phantom Menace" and a chase scene in Oblivion. Cutting the volume down to about -5 instead of 0 helps there.

The exact date is TBD, but since I'm buying the new Trinnov Altitude, I'm eventually putting my R-972 up for sale this winter. So anyone that's interested, please send me a PM and I can alert you when that might be and we can settle the details.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #3233 of 3236 Old 10-28-2014, 01:52 PM
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Welcome, Chris! Good to have some new blood here. Warning: Trinnov is addictive, and with enough of a fix, you'll think seriously about moving to a SOTA "full" Trinnov unit (the MC or the Magnitude for multichannel runtime capability, or the cutting edge Altitude that supports Atmos/Auro and up to 32 channels as a pre/pro) if you've the funds.
Thanks, glad to be here. As for addictiveness - that's not good news, not good news at all ...

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3234 of 3236 Old 10-28-2014, 02:01 PM
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Thus the R-972 effectively is a 40 lb runtime box for DSP Trinnov, except with five presets rather than the larger set in the full Trinnov processors.
That's how I'll be using it as well.

Quote:
I'm eventually putting my R-972 up for sale this winter. So anyone that's interested, please send me a PM and I can alert you when that might be and we can settle the details.
If I like my first one, I might be interested in a second one for a second system.

I see also that you have Audyssey XT32 but you don't use it - I assume you've done extensive comparisons of both, and prefer the soundfield you get with Trinnov?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3235 of 3236 Old 10-28-2014, 03:41 PM
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I see also that you have Audyssey XT32 but you don't use it - I assume you've done extensive comparisons of both, and prefer the soundfield you get with Trinnov?
As you can tell, I have XT32 in the Denon (actually, Audyssey Pro), and doing comparisons for both music and movies, I've found I prefer the sound from the Sherwood's implementation of Trinnov for a few reasons.

First, you can switch between "Flat" for Cinema, and a "Natural" (gently tilted, more perceptibly that physically flat) curve for Music by simply switching out presets. That's appealing because it prevents the lifeless bass effect you sometimes get with Audyssey.

When I measured back in December 2013, I found that the bass was smoother in the crossover area than with Audyssey on my main+sub REW frequency plots, and there was less need to do the "distance tweak" that's best practice for improving the sub/satellite splice. In addition, the pre/pro IR plots I ran with REW's ETC showed that Trinnov was doing something in reducing variations in energy in the room that Audyssey wasn't. I'd hesitate to make too much of this without measuring pre-outs for an Audyssey and Trinnov calibration under controlled and reproducible conditions, but there was a noticeable difference in the ability to detect distinct notes using the R-972 compared to XT32 with the 4311.

I've since switched speakers (DefTech to PSB), and haven't had an opportunity to measure recently the comparison, but I think my chart might be still in the REW thread, or possibly buried back in December or January 2013 here.

More importantly, the biggest difference in sound IMO was due to Remapping. My mains are physically +/- 15 degrees, and my surrounds are > 120 degrees due to room placement in our current living room. The Trinnov 3D remapping broadened the soundstage considerably, and also helped me achieve noticeably better center channel dialogue. With Remapping, you can use separate Cinema and Music speaker placements as goals and utilize multiple speakers to bring the image into better position. Note, though, that I'm mostly interested in MLP at the moment, so the single position measuring for a given calibration with the Sherwood is less of a limitation relative to XT32 than it might be for others.

One other advantage: I have two position configurations: a 5.1 and a 7.1, which I achieve by taking my PSB Imagine S surrounds, which can be configured in dipole or Dual Mono mode, and have dedicated calibration to each. They have separate presets among my five HDMI virtual slots on the VIDEO menu, and while I almost always use 7.1, I like to do the comparison with music vs 5.1. No way to do that without save/load on an Audyseey processor.

So yes, I use Trinnov for critical listening, and the Audyssey cal is primarily in place for listening to Internet Radio from the Denon, mostly for convenience given the built-in menus, and for TV when my wife doesn't want to deal with having multiple AVRs on just to watch General Hospital .

This is all in flux, as we're moving this spring and are planning to set up a dedicated room to replace our multipurpose living room. I'm also doing an Atmos/Auro configuration, with the higher end Altitude as the brains of the configuration. But that's a subject for elsewhere .

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #3236 of 3236 Old Yesterday, 07:25 PM
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In case anyone here is interested, I've decided to sell my 'backup' R-972.

Sherwood R-972 w/Trinnov - Brand New
twells is online now  
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Sherwood Newcastle R 972

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