Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 109 - AVS Forum
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post #3241 of 3270 Old 11-05-2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post
Coincidentally, my HDMI board died last night as well. It just continually makes a switching click sound every 10 seconds, and no longer sends a picture/connects. Keeps dropping.

Am I screwed? I wasn't in the market to buy a new receiver, as I loved this one. The new receivers don't impress me.
Just out of curiosity - was your R-972 a purchase of a new unit from Accessories4Less, or from one of the outfits that were selling refurbished units (1saleaday) back in 2012-2013? I could be wrong, but it seems from the thread that the refurbished units seemed to have more problems than the ones sold from AC4L.


It matters because IDK what the warranty on the 1saleaday AVRs was, but on the AC4L, they had a three year warranty IIRC.

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Last edited by sdrucker; 11-05-2014 at 10:01 AM.
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post #3242 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bhazard View Post
Coincidentally, my HDMI board died last night as well. Am I screwed?
Yes, you're completely screwed. And so is everyone who bought a new unit from Accessories4lLess (or elsewhere). Sherwood will not service or support your R972 in any way, nor supply any parts, in or out of warranty.

I have been going around and around with Sherwood about this and can update you with the bad news...

Sherwood closed its California offices in December. They also closed their service department and fired all their techs. Until a few weeks ago they had provided no evidence of this to customers. Their phone system was still functional, directing callers to service and sales departments that had been abandoned 9 months earlier (with those extensions going to voicemail). Their U.S. website was also still up and promoting product. After I started digging around, they promptly shut both down.

Sherwood is now selling their products through an independent U.S. distributor. While that distributor does have a service department, Etron (a.k.a. Inkel, Sherwood's Korean parent company) has made a policy decision not to service or support R972's in any way whatsoever. This includes units that are still under warranty. Furthermore Inkel has no replacement parts for R972's and no plans to source any more.

I discovered this when the HDMI board failed for the third time in one of my four R972's (this one was out of warranty). I opened the unit and discovered that the last time Sherwood replaced the HDMI board (under warranty) the bench tech had literally glued it to the motherboard with huge gobs of glue, making it impossible for me to remove it (and possibly causing the latest failure, since some of the glue had dripped and melted on the sockets). After failing to reach Sherwood in California for months, I became suspicious that there was "nobody home" and finally reached Gary Graning, who works for Sherwood/Inkel and whose email signature identifies him as the President of Sherwood. I received this emailed reply from him:

"I am sorry to say that parts for the R-972 are not available. I have checked back and received reporting from our parent company in Korea and several parts manufacturers. There are no parts and no repair available for the R-972 at this time. Our new and current service department technicians do not have facility to service this receiver. We apologize for the unavailability of the parts necessary to service your receiver. Unfortunately repair on this model is now at a dead-stop. The sales and service life of this receiver has run it's course."

I subsequently called him for clarification. He told me that Inkel had discontinued the R972 because it was a "trouble prone model," They have no more parts for it either in the U.S. or Korea, no plans to source more parts, no intention of training any U.S. techs to service the unit, and will not be supporting it in any way whatsoever, in or out of warranty. I expressed my shock given that as recently as 9 months ago the units were for sale new via Accessories4Less, who had bought them directly from Sherwood America with three year warranties, and that as recently as 12 months ago the R972 was still listed on the Sherwood America website as if it was a current model. It is unreasonable for a manufacturer to sell a product with a 3 year warranty and promote it on their website, and just 9 months later declare it "end of life" and refuse to service or support it in any way. But Mr. Graning reiterated by phone that this is exactly what Inkel has done.

Mr. Graning was nice enough to provide me with service and parts manuals for the unit in PDF form in case I could find someone to fix it locally. However, with no parts supply these are of limited value.

I then contacted American Music & Sound, who is distributing some new Sherwood product in the U.S. They are an independent importer not affiliated with Sherwood. I have to say that they were incredibly responsive and sympathetic, and I would feel very confident about buying other products that they represent. But ultimately they could do little to help me. I sent them my R972 and they managed to unglue my board. Then they spent an entire day weeding through all of the parts that they'd bought from Sherwood's California facility when it closed, hoping to find me a working HDMI board. Alas they found only one semi-working HDMI board (which still has one input out), but they did install that one and are sending the unit back to me. They didn't charge me a cent, even though they spent all day on it and had no responsibility for this mess. I asked them if they could simply repair the HDMI board, since it is the biggest failure item. They looked into it and determined that the chip on the board that generally fails is proprietary and must be programmed by Inkel in Korea. Even if they could get the chip, Inkel would have to program it in Korea and is unwilling to do so. They also confirmed what Mr. Graning had told me - that they will be receiving no parts or assistance from Inkel for the R972 and can do absolutely nothing to support it. Therefore they will not be accepting any R972's for service in or out of warranty. They were extremely apologetic but their hands are tied. Inkel has left their new U.S. distributor "high and dry" just as they have left us R972 owners "high and dry."

I then spoke to Accessories4Less, who sold most of the R972's at retail. He was not aware of what Sherwood/Inkel had done, and was shocked when I told him. He said he has heard of cheap off-brand companies (the kind that sell $9.99 DVD players) pulling a stunt like this, but never a "reputable" brand like Sherwood. He said that of 1000 or so R972's made, he sold 500 of them over the last couple of years. When Sherwood sold them to him they represented them as having 3 year warranties and never remotely indicated that they would not be serviced or supported. Unfortunately, he also has no recourse or ability to resolve the problem either, as he has no units or parts and was not the issuer of the warranty. He suggested that the easiest solution would probably be for Inkel to set up an exchange program for the HDMI boards. A few boards could be sent to Korea for repair (new chip and programming). When a customer needs a board, a repaired one would be provided and his defective board sent back to Korea to be repaired and restocked for the next customer, and so on. I have one spare non-working board, and I gather American Music & Sound has a few, so that could certainly be done if Inkel chose to.

It was on his suggestion that I am posting this information here. He said he thinks the only recourse for R972 owners is either through public pressure on Sherwood/Inkel, or perhaps through legal channels if there happens to be an attorney on the forums interested in pursuing it. Given that these units are "trouble prone" by Sherwood's own admission (and confirmed by failure reports on this forum), it is likely as an R972 owner this will affect you sooner or later - both in terms of its non-repairability if/when it fails, and its resale value should you choose to sell it.

Now you know as much as I do.
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post #3243 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 09:44 AM
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Wow, just so sad how this happened.

When the HDMI board goes bad, do other inputs work like digital audio? I am just wondering if there's still some use left in these units once the HDMI goes out.

So far mine is till working, but I have actually used only 1 hdmi input. (I have a video processor handle the switching earlier in the chain). I wonder if that's extended its life somehow.
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post #3244 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 10:03 AM
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HDMI board failures can apparently manifest themselves in various ways. The most common is for HDMI 2-4 to go out, as I understand it. (HDMI 1 will generally still work.) In that case the unit could potentially be used with an external HDMI switcher or via other types of inputs. However one of my R972's arrived out-of-the-box with a dead audio channel on all inputs, and at the time when it went back to Sherwood they listed the repair as "replaced HDMI board." So I guess there are various things that can be affected by this board. Of course it is not just HDMI boards that Sherwood says they do not have (although those appear to be the most common failure items). They claim to have no parts whatsoever.
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post #3245 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 10:19 AM
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Their US website is still up, and the R-972 is still listed as a Sherwood receiver as of a minute ago:

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/product/view.asp

"Authorized service centers" are also still on the website.

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Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

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post #3246 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 10:22 AM
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How does the language in the warranty read as regards remedies? If the warranty is binding, worst case would typically be replacement with a "similar" unit, or some pro-rata refund to the purchaser.
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post #3247 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Their US website is still up, and the R-972 is still listed as a Sherwood receiver as of a minute ago:
http://www.sherwoodusa.com/product/view.asp
"Authorized service centers" are also still on the website.
Interesting. It's back up, not still up. It was down for the last several weeks, having been taking down immediately after I inquired. The contact info is the independent U.S. distributor. The "service centers" list is ancient and long-outdated. The company listed for my area has been out of business for years. They may be honoring warranties on other Sherwood products for all I know. I was not told that no Sherwood products were being supported, just R972's specifically.

I think I'll take a screenshot of it. Hard to claim a product is "end of life and not supported" when you are still actively promoting it on your own website.

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How does the language in the warranty read as regards remedies? If the warranty is binding, worst case would typically be replacement with a "similar" unit, or some pro-rata refund to the purchaser.
As of our conversation, Gary Graning told me Sherwood is not offering any recourse at all, including replacement with a "similar" unit. The most "similar" unit would be an R977, but of course it has no Trinnov (and to my knowledge there are none in the U.S.). At least that would be something; it is the least Sherwood can do.

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post #3248 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busdepot View Post
As of our conversation, Gary Graning told me Sherwood is not offering any recourse at all, including replacement with a "similar" unit. The most "similar" unit would be an R977, but of course it has no Trinnov (and to my knowledge there are none in the U.S.). At least that would be something; it is the least Sherwood can do.

Radio Shack is still carrying a number of "Sherwood" products, AVRs as well as soundbars. The AVRs are, to put it mildly, underwhelming feature-wise. The most advanced of the in-stock offerings is a 70-watt 5.1 receiver for $169.99:
http://www.radioshack.com/sherwood-r...art=6&tab=tab2


FYI you can still buy the R-977 in the US, from Overstock.com - or at least it's listed on the website:
http://www.overstock.com/Electronics...7/product.html

Stuart

 

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post #3249 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busdepot View Post
As of our conversation, Gary Graning told me Sherwood is not offering any recourse at all, including replacement with a "similar" unit. The most "similar" unit would be an R977, but of course it has no Trinnov (and to my knowledge there are none in the U.S.). At least that would be something; it is the least Sherwood can do.
What's the language in the warranty re: their obligations?
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post #3250 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 11:35 AM
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What's the language in the warranty re: their obligations?
"Repair or replace at our option." That is boilerplate language. After you posed this question, I emailed Mr. Graning to ask if anything had changed, and more specifically whether Sherwood would replace R972's that fail under warranty with 977's. Surprisingly, he responded immediately, but this was the response:

I have not revisited this recently; but in response to your email, the short version is "No". No Sherwood companies have any R-977s (or any Newcastle branded) receivers available any longer anyway, and our parts and service capabilities are unchanged from our previous discussions.
My apologies.

Typically manufacturers of big-ticket items are expected to supply parts and service for their products for a reasonable period of time for both in and out of warranty service. Of course products do go "end of life" - no company can support a product indefinitely - but not just nine months after being available for sale through authorized channels (and while still depicted as current on the company website). If you brought in a 10 or 15 year old receiver for repair, it would be reasonable to expect some parts to be unavailable, but not a year or two old one.

This is not how reputable companies do business.

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post #3251 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 04:12 PM
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First, please post up the service manuals you received as they may helpful. Anyone that has owned an Onkyo in recent years knows what I'm talking about

Second there must be some government authority to lean on in this matter. If Sherwood still has financial interests in this country then they have to abide by the law pertaining to warranties and business practices and such. I have no idea what agency handles that type of thing but somebody here must.
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post #3252 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 04:14 PM
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By the way how about nice clear hi-res pics of this defunt hdmi board, front and back, so we can see what we are dealing with ?
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post #3253 of 3270 Old 11-06-2014, 10:22 PM
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Sherwood will not service or support your R972 in any way, nor supply any parts, in or out of warranty.
http://consumerist.com/2008/01/21/su...-fun-and-easy/

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post #3254 of 3270 Old 11-08-2014, 12:34 PM
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I may have some luck. I purchased a squaretrade warranty along with the unit from 1saleaday.

Can't believe I only paid $299 for it. I may just use HDMI1 and a switcher (1 still works), because no unit under $1,300 on the market even now can touch this thing. New AVRs are completely underwhelming.
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post #3255 of 3270 Old 11-18-2014, 07:21 AM
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So the question is, would you still buy one now (972) knowing that there is no chance for a repair? I was just getting ready to purchase a new in box (A Stock) R-972, when I saw (and confirmed as well) that there is no support, no warranty, nothing (other than the help on these forums) for the 972.. Frankly, I fear if something were to go wrong with my R-865, I don't know that I'd be able to get it repaired either the way it sounds.. For now, I've held off (despite the very strong attraction for Trinnov) on getting the 972.. It's incredibly sad to see what's become of what was an incredible set of receivers... :-(

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post #3256 of 3270 Old 11-18-2014, 11:46 AM
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I would say if the price was right it is still worth purchasing. My receiver still has the HDMI1 port working and I get along just fine using an external HDMI switch.
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post #3257 of 3270 Old 11-19-2014, 09:12 AM
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I would say if the price was right it is still worth purchasing. My receiver still has the HDMI1 port working and I get along just fine using an external HDMI switch.
If I didn't have the squaretrade warranty, I would be fine with a switcher on HDMI1 until I needed a true 4K receiver.

i sent my receiver to Squaretrade to repair. It'll be interesting to see if they can. If not, I'd get back most if not all of the price of the receiver, which I would put towards an Onkyo for now (Huge sound downgrade, but nothing under $1,000 is going to match this unit SQ wise, which is more than triple the price paid).
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post #3258 of 3270 Old 11-19-2014, 10:36 AM
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If I didn't have the squaretrade warranty, I would be fine with a switcher on HDMI1 until I needed a true 4K receiver.

i sent my receiver to Squaretrade to repair. It'll be interesting to see if they can. If not, I'd get back most if not all of the price of the receiver, which I would put towards an Onkyo for now (Huge sound downgrade, but nothing under $1,000 is going to match this unit SQ wise, which is more than triple the price paid).
Just spoke with Sherwood Usa distributor. (866-916-4667). The company is still in business. They do not answer the phone Sherwood any longer. It is Audio Video something or other but the bottom line is the warranty is in fact still valid. I purchased from Accessories4Less. They were an authorized distributor. I am relieved. I am selling mine and thought I was going to have an issue.
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post #3259 of 3270 Old 11-25-2014, 12:04 AM
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Oh. My. Gobsmackers! I just got this puppy up and running today - and I have only one of the four 18" subwoofers I'm building hooked up. I SWEAR there are sounds coming from parts of the room where there are no speakers. It's spooky. I don't even care if the HDMI boards eventually go out as long as the sound processing works.

I mean - wow, just wow! No words.

Okay back to watching movies. . .

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3260 of 3270 Old 11-25-2014, 08:30 AM
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I SWEAR there are sounds coming from parts of the room where there are no speakers. It's spooky.
It's normal. Phantom imaging has been part of stereo reproduction for as long as there has been stereo. Every speaker and its adjacent speaker form a stereo pair, and you should routinely be hearing lots of imaging between every speaker pair.

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post #3261 of 3270 Old 11-25-2014, 11:57 AM
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It's normal. Phantom imaging has been part of stereo reproduction for as long as there has been stereo. Every speaker and its adjacent speaker form a stereo pair, and you should routinely be hearing lots of imaging between every speaker pair.
Yeah I know, except I've never heard phantom imaging from multichannel sources until now in my setup. Maybe my setup is poor - but whatever magic the Trinnov processing did, it widened the soundstage beyond the L/R speakers. People are right about the power of this chip - I just wasn't expecting it. Now I'd really like to try Audyssey XT32 to compare.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

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post #3262 of 3270 Old 11-25-2014, 02:45 PM
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Any feedback on my Trinnov questions would be appreciated:

I ran the automated setup, and after doing its testing, Trinnov reported a -6 db point for all my speakers except my L/R mains - which reported a 0 Hz -6db point. This doesn't make sense to me - even my subwoofer had a -6db point reported (23 hz).

My mains are Onix Rocket 750's.

Any ideas? Does this mean that the Sherwood is running them as full range with no crossover?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

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post #3263 of 3270 Old 11-25-2014, 04:35 PM
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That sounds odd. Did you get a short set of three bursts for each of those Onyx front speakers when you did the cal (meaning: all should be "good"), or more like a set of nine bursts (which can indicate problems picking up the speakers)? As the lower read of low bass from the R-972's mic is something like 19 Hz, and Googling your speakers finds a -3db of about 38 Hz, I don't think that 0 Hz read is likely to be valid if you're picking up your subs in the calibration. Others may chime in on this, but IMO that's a flag that there's an underlying issue. Can you take a screenshot of the calibration results and post it? There may be something else going on as well.

You might want to try a basic calibration with just your front speakers and the sub and see if you get the same result, or possibly with the mic in a position more near field to the front speakers and see if you get a more reasonable crossover for the fronts. If you do, you can then ID whether moving the mic back to capture a more readable MLP, or possibly moving in the L/R mains to capture a better read on them, solves the issue. And if you have an SPL meter, it can't hurt to verify that you're getting a calibration SPL volume at 75 db or so. The R-972 is supposed to calibrate automatically at reference, but a couple of users (I want to say Ken/Rur a few years ago) reported that a pro unit wouldn't pick up speakers at too low a volume, so you may want to see if you're really getting a loud enough volume at your MLP.

If you haven't, you might want to read through Curt's R-972 notes from a few years back, and the few few pages of the now dormant R-972 Trinnov Notes thread:
http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf

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post #3264 of 3270 Old 11-25-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
Any ideas?
Might try a factory reset. I found at times the readings would be off the wall and such would bring them back in line. I also had one unit that never would report x speakers correctly...
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post #3265 of 3270 Old 11-26-2014, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
Might try a factory reset. I found at times the readings would be off the wall and such would bring them back in line. I also had one unit that never would report x speakers correctly...
Thanks Charles - I did try that at your suggestion, thanks. It took four calibrations until Trinnov found all the speakers. I'm new to room correction - maybe they are all this finicky? I don't think my room is THAT odd and there is a clear line of sight to each speaker, with distances ranging from 7-9 feet (surrounds) to 16 feet (mains).

#1 - Missed the sub. Turned up the gain and the next one was fine, but got the funny L/R main results
#2 - Found the sub but now couldn't find the right surround. My L/R surrounds are an ancient but still great pair of Ohm Walsh 4X0's.
#3 - Swapped the Ohm Walsh's for a pair of Swan Diva 2.1 bookshelves - now Trinnov couldn't find either the right OR left surround
#4 - Put the Walshes back in place but moved the right one further out from the wall - now Trinnov found both of them.

Now, however, the remote control seems to have completely quit communicating with the AVR (and yes I tested the batteries and even swapped them). The remote appears to be working okay, but the AVR is totally unresponsive. I'm doing everything with buttons on the panel now.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3266 of 3270 Old 11-26-2014, 01:45 AM
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But still, regardless of its issues - wow man, just wow. I am just so floored at the sound stage this is producing in my home. I didn't think this was even possible. I haven't run REW yet at all - so I don't know what the response in my room is. I don't have much diffusion yet, and I have only a measly two bass traps (GIK) for a 4,200 cubic foot room - and still this sound is amazing.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3267 of 3270 Old 11-26-2014, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Can you take a screenshot of the calibration results and post it? There may be something else going on as well.

If you haven't, you might want to read through Curt's R-972 notes from a few years back, and the few few pages of the now dormant R-972 Trinnov Notes thread:
http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf
Thanks so much for your reply - here are the screenshots. Yes I have Curt's notes printed out.

Forgive my messy room - the theater's aesthetics are still "under construction"

Looking at this screen again, I assume that Trinnov likes to run the L/R in large mode if it can? I haven't run REW yet (although I bought a mic for it) and I lost my Radioshack SPL so I'll have to order another one.

Thanks for any feedback - the sound is amazing - I ain't complaining!
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"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3268 of 3270 Old 11-26-2014, 02:22 AM
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Another question - if I don't do any remapping - only run the auto setup optimizer - is Trinnov doing spatial correction anyway? All I know is this soundstage is awesome.

Of course - this is my first AVR with correction, and up until now I was running with essentially a non-existent subwoofer, and I never in the past got involved with equalization of any kind. So I'm comparing apples to oranges, I suppose, vs my previous setup with a different receiver (Sony STR-DA2000ES - one of the first Class D AVR's, but from 2003, with no room correction).

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3269 of 3270 Old 11-26-2014, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
Another question - if I don't do any remapping - only run the auto setup optimizer - is Trinnov doing spatial correction anyway? All I know is this soundstage is awesome.

Of course - this is my first AVR with correction, and up until now I was running with essentially a non-existent subwoofer, and I never in the past got involved with equalization of any kind. So I'm comparing apples to oranges, I suppose, vs my previous setup with a different receiver (Sony STR-DA2000ES - one of the first Class D AVR's, but from 2003, with no room correction).
Chris

First question with the remote-Make sure the LCD screen of the
remote says Audio. It can inadvertantly be bumped into another
mode and all control of the 972 is gone. I have tried turning down
a very loud scene with no response and realize it was now in CD mode.

In quick setup or input setup try the distance and volume setting first.
The integration of the sub or subs is so well done with the Trinnov that
nothing I have tried comes close. Some use this setting for 2 channel
listening. Next you can experiment with 2D and 3D remapping.
I have my Video4 and Video5 both with my streaming. On the fly I
can switch between 2 channel or 3D remap of the same music.

Steve
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post #3270 of 3270 Old 11-26-2014, 01:01 PM
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Chris, re finding the speakers, sometimes just trying again w/o doing anything will work.

Noah
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