Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3331 of 3345 Old 06-08-2015, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JayS99 View Post
All,

Also... does anyone have a good copy of the latest firmware (if it winds up I try a firmware upgrade).

Jay S.
Firmware is on the Sherwood website. Do a search for R-972 on their site and you should be able to find it.

Now the +3 and +6dB files, I haven't been able to find those. anyone know where to get them?

Thanks,
Jason
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post #3332 of 3345 Old 06-08-2015, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post
Firmware is on the Sherwood website. Do a search for R-972 on their site and you should be able to find it.

Now the +3 and +6dB files, I haven't been able to find those. anyone know where to get them?

Thanks,
Jason
Has anyone "upgraded" from the R-972 to an Atmos enabled receiver (with requisite speaker arrangement), and what are your thoughts?

Particularly interested if you used any height or ceiling speakers in your R-972 setup.

I would like to stay with Trinnov, but the only Atmos equipped Trinnov products are a bit out of my price range.

Thanks,
Jason
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post #3333 of 3345 Old 06-08-2015, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post
Firmware is on the Sherwood website. Do a search for R-972 on their site and you should be able to find it.

Now the +3 and +6dB files, I haven't been able to find those. anyone know where to get them?

Thanks,
Jason
Bass target files are here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post501981

You don't have to do a reset the unit though, just turn it off then on worked for me. You ONLY put the file on the USB drive that you are looking to do like the 6+ db, don't put them all on there then plug it into the 972. I think there is a better explanation of how to do the bass boost somewhere in that thread. I also had to verify that it actually installed, I did this using my Velodyne SMS-1 to measure the subs before and after to make sure the boost was applied. I had to do it a couple of times to get it to stick.
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post #3334 of 3345 Old 06-16-2015, 04:21 PM
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Whenever I run a strictly stereo calibration (no sub), Trinnov always comes back with -17 and -18 for the two channels. It doesn't matter where I set the gain adjustment on my external amp. There is a very obvious level difference to the test tones when I make the gain adjustment. Microphone is in the same position.

is there some quirky setting that might be causing this?
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post #3335 of 3345 Old 06-18-2015, 07:24 AM
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Thanks. I'l give that a go.

Looks like I've run into similar questions/problems that some of you guys did 2-3 years ago!

Multi-channel SACD seems to be a pain. I saw some earlier posts but none that specifically answer my question here. I've managed to get my SACD player to send multi-channel LPCM over to the R-972, but I'm confused by what it does with it.

If I have the input auto-surround enabled, the R-972 display shows Stereo. If I manually set the surround format (auto-surround disabled), is Multi-channel stereo the unprocessed (other than trinnov of course) LPCM? On other receivers I thought that Multi-channel stereo was a processed sound like 'hall', 'stadium', or 'neural'?

Did any of you guys see something different when using multi-channel LPCM from SACD or DVD-A? Maybe my player is fooling me and only outputting a down mixed two channel even though I have multi-channel layer selected? My player is the Denon 4010.

Thanks for any help.
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post #3336 of 3345 Old 06-18-2015, 08:03 AM
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When my 972 was working .. :-( .. I had my Oppo 981 HD (SACD/DVD A) hooked up via HDMI to 972.. The 972 (with Trinnov active) picked it up as Multi-PCM at 48KHz (apparently that's the max with Trinnov on). Are you sure the settings on the player are sending the correct signal? If I recall, I think I might have tried both auto and HDMI on the 972. I don't think you seeing Multi-Stereo is correct. More importantly, what sound are you getting out of the speakers. Are all firing.. DVD-A with Trinnov on the 972 should be an incredible sound stage for you.. I mean you'd know.. I can look and see what I have the Oppo set for (not sure it will translate to your player) if that helps..

Jay S.

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Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post
Thanks. I'l give that a go.

Looks like I've run into similar questions/problems that some of you guys did 2-3 years ago!

Multi-channel SACD seems to be a pain. I saw some earlier posts but none that specifically answer my question here. I've managed to get my SACD player to send multi-channel LPCM over to the R-972, but I'm confused by what it does with it.

If I have the input auto-surround enabled, the R-972 display shows Stereo. If I manually set the surround format (auto-surround disabled), is Multi-channel stereo the unprocessed (other than trinnov of course) LPCM? On other receivers I thought that Multi-channel stereo was a processed sound like 'hall', 'stadium', or 'neural'?

Did any of you guys see something different when using multi-channel LPCM from SACD or DVD-A? Maybe my player is fooling me and only outputting a down mixed two channel even though I have multi-channel layer selected? My player is the Denon 4010.

Thanks for any help.
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post #3337 of 3345 Old 06-19-2015, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JayS99 View Post
When my 972 was working .. :-( .. I had my Oppo 981 HD (SACD/DVD A) hooked up via HDMI to 972.. The 972 (with Trinnov active) picked it up as Multi-PCM at 48KHz (apparently that's the max with Trinnov on). Are you sure the settings on the player are sending the correct signal? If I recall, I think I might have tried both auto and HDMI on the 972. I don't think you seeing Multi-Stereo is correct. More importantly, what sound are you getting out of the speakers. Are all firing.. DVD-A with Trinnov on the 972 should be an incredible sound stage for you.. I mean you'd know.. I can look and see what I have the Oppo set for (not sure it will translate to your player) if that helps..

Jay S.
Jay, that's very helpful! I think my Denon is down-converting to stereo based on the HDMI information received from the R-972 (of course not sure which unit is to blame). I really don't want to buy another player, but I may need to check out one of the Oppo's.
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post #3338 of 3345 Old 06-20-2015, 07:06 AM
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Jason,

So just took a look at the Denon manual.. I guess the first question (and sometimes we all miss the obvious)... What layer are you selecting on the source when you go to play it.. I mean you are selecting the multi-channel layer and not the regular stereo layer of the DVD-A for example? Other than that, what are your settings on the Denon for Digital Out and Downmix? The 972 shouldn't be telling the Denon to downmix something.. It might not be interpreting what it gets correctly (say a bad setting on the Denon, or Denon's multi-channel SACD/DVD-A is somehow different over HDMI), but the 972 wouldn't tell the Denon to "change" what it's sending..

Jay S.

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Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post
Jay, that's very helpful! I think my Denon is down-converting to stereo based on the HDMI information received from the R-972 (of course not sure which unit is to blame). I really don't want to buy another player, but I may need to check out one of the Oppo's.
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post #3339 of 3345 Old 06-20-2015, 04:15 PM
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Jason,

So just took a look at the Denon manual.. I guess the first question (and sometimes we all miss the obvious)... What layer are you selecting on the source when you go to play it.. I mean you are selecting the multi-channel layer and not the regular stereo layer of the DVD-A for example? Other than that, what are your settings on the Denon for Digital Out and Downmix? The 972 shouldn't be telling the Denon to downmix something.. It might not be interpreting what it gets correctly (say a bad setting on the Denon, or Denon's multi-channel SACD/DVD-A is somehow different over HDMI), but the 972 wouldn't tell the Denon to "change" what it's sending..

Jay S.
Thanks for looking at the manual. Yeah, using the multi-channel layer. I have the denon setup to output multi LPCM. I've tried the setting with BM on and off. After reading again, maybe I have to set the video resolution lower, but I think that is just saying some of the other codecs will get converted to LPCM if lower resolution.
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post #3340 of 3345 Old 06-20-2015, 10:59 PM
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May be different settings available on the different players. On the Oppo, I have Digital Output set to RAW (not PCM) and HDMI Audio set to Auto, not LPCM.

Jay S.

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Originally Posted by jasonmichaelh View Post
Thanks for looking at the manual. Yeah, using the multi-channel layer. I have the denon setup to output multi LPCM. I've tried the setting with BM on and off. After reading again, maybe I have to set the video resolution lower, but I think that is just saying some of the other codecs will get converted to LPCM if lower resolution.
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post #3341 of 3345 Unread Today, 09:54 AM
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Hey,
It's been awhile, but as I received my Trinnov Altitude a few weeks ago, I sold my R-972 to a user looking for a backup unit. It's been a fun ride with the Sherwood, as I was one of the lucky ones that didn't have any HDMI problems or board failures. I'm still convinced that in the right circumstances, the Sherwood - even as an abandoned support product - can still be useful and ahead of its time compared to an Audyssey system for a 7.1 user, given the remapping feature, the "Natural" curve as an EQ option, and a cheap MiniDSP to allow someone to set a target curve for their subs to taste and/or using REW with Auto EQ to get more control over subwoofer dips and peaks. Not for everyone, but sometimes an older product can have unique advantages if you can live with the issues or where it's now archaic. Good luck, all...

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 16/24, NAD M27 amp, Crown XLS 1502 stereo amps (2)
Display: Panasonic VT50, Lumagen Radiance Mini
Misc.: Oppo 103, Apple TV, JRiver ID NUC
Speakers: PSB Imagine T2, Center, and X2T Surrounds; Atlantic Tech 44-DA heights (4), HSU ULS-15 subs (2)
More gear to follow as I get going with the Altitude...
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post #3342 of 3345 Unread Today, 10:31 AM
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Well, I'd hope with a Trinnov Altitude that you're getting some of the best sounding addition you could make to a system.. That said, whether Audyssey or the reduced function set Trinnov in the 972 that there's no comparison. Went through two 972s.. NOT one of the lucky ones.. First just decided to leave half its intelligence on the floor one morning.. no ability to reach Setup (even on the front panel) and no video/hdmi support (even audio).. I could assume an HDMI card failure but not both concurrently.. and the lack of any setup ability was heartwrenching.. Second one was DOA for audio.. and I was not about to try and rebuild one out of two..

Went with Denon 4311CI .. With latest Audyssey and front high, I'm hoping to recapture at least some of the spatial depth from the 972.. I know that I won't reach a point of the speakers disappearing as they did with the 972, but the reality of lack of parts and support was the final straw. At some point we're all going to have to move away from the 972. There are no more parts and we're pretty much on our own here to try and help one another..

Like you said.. A great ride with SN... Back to an R-925... But it was time to look elsewhere. I'm by no means disappointed with the 4311... It provides an excellent sound stage for both home theater and music. Will be adding to the system to make it 9.1 with front high shortly..

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Hey,
It's been awhile, but as I received my Trinnov Altitude a few weeks ago, I sold my R-972 to a user looking for a backup unit. It's been a fun ride with the Sherwood, as I was one of the lucky ones that didn't have any HDMI problems or board failures. I'm still convinced that in the right circumstances, the Sherwood - even as an abandoned support product - can still be useful and ahead of its time compared to an Audyssey system for a 7.1 user, given the remapping feature, the "Natural" curve as an EQ option, and a cheap MiniDSP to allow someone to set a target curve for their subs to taste and/or using REW with Auto EQ to get more control over subwoofer dips and peaks. Not for everyone, but sometimes an older product can have unique advantages if you can live with the issues or where it's now archaic. Good luck, all...
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post #3343 of 3345 Unread Today, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JayS99 View Post
Well, I'd hope with a Trinnov Altitude that you're getting some of the best sounding addition you could make to a system.. That said, whether Audyssey or the reduced function set Trinnov in the 972 that there's no comparison. Went through two 972s.. NOT one of the lucky ones.. First just decided to leave half its intelligence on the floor one morning.. no ability to reach Setup (even on the front panel) and no video/hdmi support (even audio).. I could assume an HDMI card failure but not both concurrently.. and the lack of any setup ability was heartwrenching.. Second one was DOA for audio.. and I was not about to try and rebuild one out of two..
Any full Trinnov offering will beat the R-972 due to the flexible parameters and faster processing than in a 2008 version of the Trinnov Optimizer, so that's a bit of a straw man. On the other hand, Audyssey MultiEQ XT before your 4311 vs. R-972 Trinnov is more or less contemporary, and the best "head to head" comparison in my opinion as Room EQ of the time went. Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 - which first was introduced with the 4311 IIRC - is less so due to its greater number of satellite filters relative to XT giving it somewhat of an advantage for correcting the sub. However, as I pointed out, something like a MiniDSP or AntiMode can make up some of that difference, but it's an additional device in the chain (between pre-outs and subs) and it requires more work than just plug and play usage.

Sorry you had the bad luck with the Sherwood. I bought my unit in 2013 new from AC4L, and even bought a second unit on the final closeout later that year as a backup. Fortunately my primary R-972 didn't have known issues after several months of use, so I sold my second unit a few months after I bought it. I'd like to think that the very small number of posters here are because there's still a silent majority of satisfied owners with their R-972s that are just lurking, but the reality is it's a dice role for a new buyer unless they're buying an already working unit. And every month that goes by, you're up against the siren call of > 7.1 channels and Atmos.


One thing: I never pretended it was a receiver. I always used it with external amplification, and about the only decoding I let it do was for two-channel audio (usually to Dolby PLII or sometimes Neural) or to upmix 5.1 to 7.1 from DVD/BluRay PCM decoded in my Oppo or JRiver. DK if that makes any real difference with unit life, but just pointing it out.

Quote:
Went with Denon 4311CI .. With latest Audyssey and front high, I'm hoping to recapture at least some of the spatial depth from the 972.. I know that I won't reach a point of the speakers disappearing as they did with the 972, but the reality of lack of parts and support was the final straw. At some point we're all going to have to move away from the 972. There are no more parts and we're pretty much on our own here to try and help one another..

Like you said.. A great ride with SN... Back to an R-925... But it was time to look elsewhere. I'm by no means disappointed with the 4311... It provides an excellent sound stage for both home theater and music. Will be adding to the system to make it 9.1 with front high shortly..

The 4311's certainly rock-solid, what a friend here called in the "Hall of Fame" of AVRs. I had the best of both worlds for awhile - having the R-972 on pre-out to my 4311, and kept an older Oppo around, so I could compare content for BD sources with Aydyssey XT32 vs. R-972 Trinnov.

But basic Audyssey, with Audyssey Reference and DEQ reflecting the mixer-oriented philosophy of Chris K. vs. the "perceptibly flat" curve other Room EQs allow - and consumers prefer as per the work of Floyd Toole - just isn't Trinnov, or Dirac for that matter. Even without remapping, Audyssey is essentially minimum phase and even the R-972 version with 2008 tech - isn't. You just don't get much correction of impulse response and phase due to the lesser to minimal correction in the time domain. But does this make a difference in what you hear? I thought so, especially because of the more expansive sound stage and clearer center channel dialog with the R-972 Trinnov. For you? That depends how treated your room is and your personal taste. Those extra two channels might make the difference for you.
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Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 16/24, NAD M27 amp, Crown XLS 1502 stereo amps (2)
Display: Panasonic VT50, Lumagen Radiance Mini
Misc.: Oppo 103, Apple TV, JRiver ID NUC
Speakers: PSB Imagine T2, Center, and X2T Surrounds; Atlantic Tech 44-DA heights (4), HSU ULS-15 subs (2)
More gear to follow as I get going with the Altitude...

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post #3344 of 3345 Unread Today, 11:16 AM
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Thanks for the reply.. Tried to do the right amount of homework before going with another AVR and the 4311 seemed to jump to the top in most all categories. I don't expect front high to be a substitute for Trinnov and as I said, the seamless disappearance of speakers under Trinnov is amazing (even more so I'm sure with what you've got now). :-) The Denon is driving Center fine.. where I noticed it the most, was DVD-A coming out of my Oppo.. Again, Denon is no slouch and anxious to add the other channels, but the purity what was coming off those DVD-A/SACD was incredible. There's far too much variability on most of the sources these days as well to make any one "definitive" statement.. We've all read about the Blu-Rays to use as reference, etc. For me it was the Eagles Hotel California DVD-A as my source of comparison.

I've still got the 972 that went kind of bonkers.. I'll hunt and peck around to see if I can get it back in some form, so I'm interested in your marriage of the 972 and 4311.. We can take offline if you want..

Jay S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
Any full Trinnov offering will beat the R-972 due to the flexible parameters and faster processing than in a 2008 version of the Trinnov Optimizer, so that's a bit of a straw man. On the other hand, Audyssey MultiEQ XT before your 4311 vs. R-972 Trinnov is more or less contemporary, and the best "head to head" comparison in my opinion as Room EQ of the time went. Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 - which first was introduced with the 4311 IIRC - is less so due to its greater number of satellite filters relative to XT giving it somewhat of an advantage for correcting the sub. However, as I pointed out, something like a MiniDSP or AntiMode can make up some of that difference, but it's an additional device in the chain (between pre-outs and subs) and it requires more work than just plug and play usage.

Sorry you had the bad luck with the Sherwood. I bought my unit in 2013 new from AC4L, and even bought a second unit on the final closeout later that year as a backup. Fortunately my primary R-972 didn't have known issues after several months of use, so I sold my second unit a few months after I bought it. I'd like to think that the very small number of posters here are because there's still a silent majority of satisfied owners with their R-972s that are just lurking, but the reality is it's a dice role for a new buyer unless they're buying an already working unit. And every month that goes by, you're up against the siren call of > 7.1 channels and Atmos.


One thing: I never pretended it was a receiver. I always used it with external amplification, and about the only decoding I let it do was for two-channel audio (usually to Dolby PLII or sometimes Neural) or to upmix 5.1 to 7.1 from DVD/BluRay PCM decoded in my Oppo or JRiver. DK if that makes any real difference with unit life, but just pointing it out.




The 4311's certainly rock-solid, what a friend here called in the "Hall of Fame" of AVRs. I had the best of both worlds for awhile - having the R-972 on pre-out to my 4311, and kept an older Oppo around, so I could compare content for BD sources with Aydyssey XT32 vs. R-972 Trinnov.

But basic Audyssey, with Audyssey Reference and DEQ reflecting the mixer-oriented philosophy of Chris K. vs. the "perceptibly flat" curve other Room EQs allow - and consumers prefer as per the work of Floyd Toole - , just isn't Trinnov, or Dirac for that matter. Even without remapping, Audyssey is essentially minimum phase and even the R-972 version with 2008 tech - isn't. You just don't get much correction of impulse response and phase due to the lesser to minimal correction in the time domain. But does this make a difference in what you hear? I thought so, especially because of the more expansive sound stage and clearer center channel dialog with the R-972 Trinnov. For you? That depends how treated your room is and your personal taste. Those extra two channels might make the difference for you.
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post #3345 of 3345 Unread Today, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JayS99 View Post
I've still got the 972 that went kind of bonkers.. I'll hunt and peck around to see if I can get it back in some form, so I'm interested in your marriage of the 972 and 4311.. We can take offline if you want..
Jay S.

Sure - I built a "Frankenprocessor" with an Oppo 103, R-972, and the 4311. If you search the thread back about two years ago you'll see some of my thoughts about how I got there. But you'll need a working R-972 to make it work, and it's only going to keep you at 7.1 (or with remapping, maybe 5.1 with two "heights" or wides).


If you're serious about this route, you also might want to look at the old R-972 Trinnov Notes thread and read Curt Hoyt's comments about what you can do to stretch out the R-972 beyond basic 5.1 with some innovative ideas. That's actually what got me started down the path that led me to the Altitude.

Audio Gear: Trinnov Altitude 16/24, NAD M27 amp, Crown XLS 1502 stereo amps (2)
Display: Panasonic VT50, Lumagen Radiance Mini
Misc.: Oppo 103, Apple TV, JRiver ID NUC
Speakers: PSB Imagine T2, Center, and X2T Surrounds; Atlantic Tech 44-DA heights (4), HSU ULS-15 subs (2)
More gear to follow as I get going with the Altitude...
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