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post #721 of 3220 Old 03-29-2010, 08:49 PM
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Roger,

Trinnov Room EQ doesn't work in its 972 implementation, so as far as I'm concerned it's a dead horse. And yes, if you want Trinnov Remapping, the 972 is the only game in town, at least for now.

Thank you for the information. You have obviously done your homework and know more than I do about smoothing out the bass response of a room. In the boring crap that follows, feel free to apply your expertise and correct me where I have gone off course, if you want to bother reading it at all.

I know what you mean by room modes, which occur at the resonant frequencies of a listening room, just as they do in wind instruments( organ pipes ), and which depend on the dimensions of the room together with the effects of corner reinforcement on bass response. But unless you are sitting smack dab in the center of a null, room EQ should have some corrective effect even on the resonant frequency at your sweet spot(s). The nulls only occur for the resonant frequency and its harmonics across the two dimensions of the room: that's only a few frequencies, but where the resonances interfere destructively the bass frequency response will be weakest. If you see nulls and peaks at a particular position, don't sit there! The effect of the nulls can be minimized( though not eliminated ) at your sweet spot(s) by careful selection of the sweet spot and speaker( woofer ) position relative to the room boundaries and the sweet spot(s). There is a really good article by Bill Rasnake in issue No.13 of The Audio Critic( Fall 1989 )* on optimizing woofer cone placement relative to seating position. He has formulas and charts for optimizing the speaker( woofer ) placement, so you don't have to solve any equations. In a private phone conversation, I had asked him about placement of downward-firing subwoofers and in-wall mounted subwoofers( which were not explicitly included in his recipes, though they would be included in the general equations ): his advice was that the distance from the center of the woofer cone to one side wall should be 1.7 times the distance of the center of the cone to the other side wall( The theory also helps in positioning turntables, which you would want to be IN a bass null, but who cares about LPs when we have CDs ). I am only interested in optimizing one sweet spot, anyway, not a whole array of seats( as you are ). Since that article, there are probably commercially available computer programs or freeware that will compute the optima for you, but the physics hasn't changed, so the article remains relevant( to us nerds ). I think you are saying that with multiple subwoofers you can eliminate the nulls, at least for many seats. For me it's a non-issue, as I am only optimizing for one seat and to hell with the others. You should put a sign on the bad seats: "YOU ARE SITTING IN A 40 Hz NULL( IF YOU CARE )". The response of most people would probably be to tear up the sign or set it on fire and to sit there anyway.

*Correct Speaker Placement for Optimum Bass Response: A Simple Mathematical Method, William Rasnake, 1989
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post #722 of 3220 Old 03-29-2010, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by xjr15 View Post

I know what you mean by room modes, which occur at the resonant frequencies of a listening room, just as they do in wind instruments( organ pipes ), and which depend on the dimensions of the room together with the effects of corner reinforcement on bass response. But unless you are sitting smack dab in the center of a null, room EQ should have some corrective effect even on the resonant frequency at your sweet spot(s).

Two of my six seats are equidistant from the side walls. And I dare say the ears are dangerously close to equidistant between the floor and ceiling.

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The nulls only occur for the resonant frequency and its harmonics across the two dimensions of the room: that's only a few frequencies, but where the resonances interfere destructively the bass frequency response will be weakest.

Even if you just want to consider the strongest--the axial modes--besides length and width, there's height. (And a bunch more if we want to consider tangential and oblique modes.)

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If you see nulls and peaks at a particular position, don't sit there! The effect of the nulls can be minimized( though not eliminated ) at your sweet spot(s) by careful selection of the sweet spot and speaker( woofer ) position relative to the room boundaries and the sweet spot(s). There is a really good article by Bill Rasnake in issue No.13 of The Audio Critic( Fall 1989 )* on optimizing woofer cone placement relative to seating position.

Yes, the Toole book maps out the danger zones, too. I might have been able to dodge those zones if a) I wanted to support fewer seats (4 vs 6), and b) wanted to sit offcenter of the room, which would have c) forced a smaller screen. I chose not to do those things. My bad. But I went another route to a solution, so in the end, I did not have to compromise.

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I think you are saying that with multiple subwoofers you can eliminate the nulls, at least for many seats. For me it's a non-issue, as I am only optimizing for one seat and to hell with the others.

Understood. It's a valid choice, and quite reasonable. I did not raise the issue of the BassQ to say you needed it at all. It was just an example for our discussion of relative sophistication in consumer bass EQ boxes. I think solving the bass modes problem in consumer-sized (smallish) rooms is the last great frontier.

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You should put a sign on the bad seats: "YOU ARE SITTING IN A 40 Hz NULL( IF YOU CARE )". The response of most people would probably be to tear up the sign or set it on fire and to sit there anyway.

While my main motive for finding a solution was to get the sweet spot to sound right, I'm happy that it has yeilded benefits to all the seats in the room. But I am not deluded--even after all this, there's still only one sweet spot in the room, front and center.

Deadwood theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #723 of 3220 Old 03-29-2010, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by xjr15 View Post

Roger,

Trinnov Room EQ doesn't work in its 972 implementation, so as far as I'm concerned it's a dead horse. And yes, if you want Trinnov Remapping, the 972 is the only game in town, at least for now.

Thank you for the information. You have obviously done your homework..

Roger not only did his home work, he has been helping write the book for a long time.
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post #724 of 3220 Old 03-30-2010, 12:10 AM
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Roger not only did his home work, he has been helping write the book for a long time.

I don't doubt it.

I think have been spending too much time talking about sound and not enough time listening. It's time for me to jump off of this thread and get back to the real world.
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post #725 of 3220 Old 03-30-2010, 03:52 AM
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Thank you for the information. You have obviously done your homework...

Do you do realize who Roger is, and his past history of who he worked for, for 26 years?


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-dressler/b/879/336
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post #726 of 3220 Old 03-30-2010, 10:51 AM
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Do you do realize who Roger is, and his past history of who he worked for, for 26 years?

Be that as it may, the topic of bass and room modes we're discussing here was what I learned as a result of building my first home theater room after leaving Dolby a couple years ago. Thank you, Dr. Toole & crew!

Deadwood theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #727 of 3220 Old 03-30-2010, 03:47 PM
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Well room shape is a huge factor. I have a 13 x 13 room and my bass is all over the place. I have it about as smooth as I can get it, but as you move around the room, you will get different bass levels. Stupid box room!

If I agree with you then we will both be wrong
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post #728 of 3220 Old 03-30-2010, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bighifi View Post

Well room shape is a huge factor. I have a 13 x 13 room and my bass is all over the place. I have it about as smooth as I can get it, but as you move around the room, you will get different bass levels. Stupid box room!

I know. I know. My room is about 16x16 but I don't move around that much when I am listening.

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post #729 of 3220 Old 03-30-2010, 07:23 PM
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well good thing my kids like it bass heavy, because in the back row (I calibrate for the sweet spot, my chair) they can get there chest crushed......pow.

If I agree with you then we will both be wrong
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post #730 of 3220 Old 03-30-2010, 07:42 PM
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Im possibly interested in getting a 972 but I cant seem to find a dealer that sells them. Any recommendations?
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post #731 of 3220 Old 03-31-2010, 09:21 AM
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This might have been answered already but does the 972 do onscreen volume over HDMI?
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post #732 of 3220 Old 03-31-2010, 11:18 AM
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This might have been answered already but does the 972 do onscreen volume over HDMI?

No.

And unless they fixed it in the last month, it doesn't pass 24p when the video scaling is engaged, which is a system, not per input, setting. (At least it didn't work with my LG BD390.)
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post #733 of 3220 Old 04-01-2010, 06:46 PM
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Do you do realize who Roger is, and his past history of who he worked for, for 26 years?


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-dressler/b/879/336

I don't care who anybody "is". Especially in an online forum, I am only interested in what they say. Titles do not impress me; they never have, and they never will. Besides, you don't know who I "am" and I don't know who you "are", and it doesn't matter anyway. Learn to think for yourself and you won't need to fear others who may know more than you.
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post #734 of 3220 Old 04-01-2010, 07:03 PM
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Good for you..


Maybe if you're even more rude than you already are, even more forum members will jump through hoops to help you out.
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post #735 of 3220 Old 04-02-2010, 11:20 AM
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did you guys know that Marantz will be coming out with their new receivers in June with the Room Perfect system? same one Mcintosh is putting on their overpriced pre-amp
I talked to someone who has heard room perfect and it is supposed to be awesome; does some similar things to trinnov. only you can put the mic all over the place ;next to the speaker next to a wall, etc and measure all kinds of stuff
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post #736 of 3220 Old 04-02-2010, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Be that as it may, the topic of bass and room modes we're discussing here was what I learned as a result of building my first home theater room after leaving Dolby a couple years ago. Thank you, Dr. Toole & crew!

I was just referred to a chat between Scott Wilkinson and Floyd Toole on this topic of bass and multiple subs, among others. The germane parts start about 20 minutes in. At 43:00 he mentions one can even successfully deal with square rooms. Worth a listen.

Deadwood theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #737 of 3220 Old 04-03-2010, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I was just referred to a chat between Scott Wilkinson and Floyd Toole on this topic of bass and multiple subs, among others. The germane parts start about 20 minutes in. At 43:00 he mentions one can even successfully deal with square rooms. Worth a listen.

Is this available in a readable format? (I have no patience for video interviews, discussions and lectures.)

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #738 of 3220 Old 04-03-2010, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Is this available in a readable format? (I have no patience for video interviews, discussions and lectures.)

While not a transcript, a lot of it is covered here. And of course it's all in his book. But I sense there are a lot of folks who have not read Toole's book, so this is an easily digested primer with some useful meat. What you get in the interview that you do not see in print are Floyd's more candid comments and opinions.

Deadwood theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #739 of 3220 Old 04-03-2010, 04:31 PM
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Thanks. I have read the book.

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post #740 of 3220 Old 04-05-2010, 11:33 AM
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When are we supposed to see this Sound & Vision Mag Review??

Mark Conner
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post #741 of 3220 Old 04-05-2010, 12:54 PM
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When are we supposed to see this Sound & Vision Mag Review??


It's in the current April/May print issue, nothing to see from them about it online.
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I managed to find a dealer that had a good price on a 972 & Il going to give it a whirl. Mine arrives tomorrow.
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post #743 of 3220 Old 04-09-2010, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

While not a transcript, a lot of it is covered here. And of course it's all in his book. But I sense there are a lot of folks who have not read Toole's book, so this is an easily digested primer with some useful meat. What you get in the interview that you do not see in print are Floyd's more candid comments and opinions.

I hadn't seen that one. Thanks.
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post #744 of 3220 Old 04-09-2010, 11:17 PM
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Maybe if you're even more rude than you already are, even more forum members will jump through hoops to help you out.

I never asked anybody for any help in this forum. I only posted my experiences and thoughts in the hope that they might help others. My 'rudeness' is only in response to rudeness initiated by others. If somebody attacks me or bullies me I will defend myself, accusations of 'rudeness'( or worse ) be damned. I have also thanked others when I have been politely corrected by them( when I was wrong about something ): that's hardly the response of somebody who is 'rude'.
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post #745 of 3220 Old 04-09-2010, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

While not a transcript, a lot of it is covered here. And of course it's all in his book. But I sense there are a lot of folks who have not read Toole's book, so this is an easily digested primer with some useful meat. What you get in the interview that you do not see in print are Floyd's more candid comments and opinions.

Thanks for the link. That's a really good overview.

BTW, I installed a Velodyne SMS-1( which is a 20-120 Hz parametric EQ box ) to optimize bass at my single listening position and got a surprisingly flat EQ( 30 Hz - 100Hz plus or minus about 2 dB ) after only about an hour or so of tweaking and it sounds good( my setup is not nearly as elaborate as Roger's ). I think The Audyssey MultEQ XT might have been a bit 'fat' in the bass, but I now prefer Velodyne flat to Audyssey fat, having heard them both.

Your JBL BassEQ has not, to my knowledge, been reviewed by any consumer publication as a separate processor apart from the complete JBL Synthesis System, which includes JBL speakers and pro installation, and I do not see it listed anyplace on the web for retail sale, so it is essentially 'off the radar' as a consumer audio product. Where can an audio consumer buy one and how much will it cost? I don't even see a MSRP for the BassEQ processor on the JBL site. If you haven't studied Floyd Toole's book, you would not even know it was not an EQ box like practically all other bass correction consumer products, even the really 'high end' ones. JBL has not been selling it as a consumer audio processor, unless you want the whole Synthesis system, and for most audio hobbyists, buying a one-brand home theater is not an option and not wanted, even if it were.
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post #746 of 3220 Old 04-09-2010, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

It's in the current April/May print issue, nothing to see from them about it online.

You can get it online by subscribing to the on-line edition( $10.00/yr. ). You can also download it for free( as a pdf ) from hotfiles.
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post #747 of 3220 Old 04-09-2010, 11:54 PM
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Yes, you can subscribe to their online mag and get to read all the full reviews instead of just some teasers of the latest issue. But I get the print version of the magazine, so I have no reason to also pay another $10 a year to also see the same thing in their online version.
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post #748 of 3220 Old 04-10-2010, 12:11 AM
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Yes, you can subscribe to their online mag and get to read all the full reviews instead of just some teasers of the latest issue. But I get the print version of the magazine, so I have no reason to also pay another $10 a year to also see the same thing in their online version.

But if you have the print issue, why whine about it not being online?( If they put all of the current print issue on line at the same time, they wouldn't sell many print copies, no? ) Besides, it was available as a free download on hotfiles on March 16.
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post #749 of 3220 Old 04-10-2010, 01:33 AM
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Well room shape is a huge factor. I have a 13 x 13 room and my bass is all over the place. I have it about as smooth as I can get it, but as you move around the room, you will get different bass levels. Stupid box room!

According to Toole, with rectangular( including square as a special case ) rooms, the dimensions are not a big issue, contrary to what many people believe. He says you can get a really good result even in square rooms, simply by placing the subs at the right places, with no EQ or DSP applied. His advice is to put the subs in the corners or along the walls( at the mid points ) to eliminate most of the resonances.
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post #750 of 3220 Old 04-10-2010, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tboo View Post

I managed to find a dealer that had a good price on a 972 & Il going to give it a whirl. Mine arrives tomorrow.

My advice is to install the latest firmware before doing anything else, or you risk blowing out a speaker. Send a private email to Stereojeff and he will email you the link to the upgrade, if you need an upgrade.
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