Sherwood R-972 User Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 3216 Old 01-26-2012, 04:28 PM
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Trinnov is a very sensitive device. Check your phase first. If your speakers are towed in then make sure they are towed in correctly. Use a laser pointer. Make sure the Trinnov Mic is level and the front mic (above the red dot) is pointed at the location you want the phantom image. The red dot is a little off center.

If I agree with you then we will both be wrong
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post #992 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 05:52 AM
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I toed in the front speakers and was able to get a little better results. The levels for the front speakers are ok, but the rear levels are now off by a few dbs. The speaker locations look like they're off by a few degrees, but at least they're close.

Here are my firmware versions. Are they all current?

SYS MICOM 1.47I 2010.08.12 17:00
XM PART 2.16
DSP PART 10/07/15
DSP FLASH 090318/991119
HDMI PART 1.11
DVP PART 09/08/19

It's possible that one of my front speakers has a problem with the tweeter. The Trinnov test tones for the left and right front speakers sound quite a bit different. One is brighter than the other. I swapped only the speakers, and the tones stayed with the speakers. I don't notice a difference between the speakers with other test tones or when listening to music. What is a good way to test a tweeter?
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post #993 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 08:37 AM
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Tweeter- you just did it- by listening to the tones. If you want to confirm your tweeter is bad by listening to tones longer, use the manual tones. You could also cover the good tweeter, then compare the two speakers.

Trinnov does use the hi frequency for localization. All speakers ideally should be facing the listening area/mic, even if the speaker setup instructions have them facing forward and off axis from the listener. Trinnov will correct for the added brightness.

You would be surprised how many speakers are found defective through Trinnov calibration.

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post #994 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 09:00 AM
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It sounds like it's pretty simple to swap the tweeters, so I'll try that next. The local B&W dealer said that when a tweeter is bad, it usually doesn't work at all. I seem to be getting some sound from it. They said I could also have a bad component in the crossover circuit. I'll try to diagnose it and order whatever parts it needs.
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post #995 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 09:18 AM
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Hi All:

I've added to the Trinnov Application Notes, now V1.1. It can be found at:

cahoyt (dt) com (sl)trinnov(sl) R972(us)trinnov(us)application(us)note(us)v1.1.pdf

Dot/slash/underscore as indicated, with no spaces, and you'll get there.

Happy Listening!

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post #996 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 12:16 PM
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Curt, thanks for the help.

I got your first link to work, but not the second one.

I hope you'll entertain some further questions. which I'm working on now.

Noah
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post #997 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post
Hi All:

For those of you interested in some tips, I've posted some notes on using Trinnov in the R972. It can be found at

cahoyt (dt) com (sl)trinnov(sl) R972(us)trinnov(us)application(us)note(us)v1.0.pdf

Dot/slash/underscore as indicated, with no spaces, and you'll get there.

Happy Listening!

1/27/12 NOTE: New version added: cahoyt (dt) com (sl)trinnov(sl) R972(us)trinnov(us)application(us)note(us)v1.1.pdf
T'would be more convenient to attach it to the message, as below. No?

 

R972_trinnov_application_note_v1.0.pdf 12.2958984375k . file
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File Type: pdf R972_trinnov_application_note_v1.0.pdf (12.3 KB, 12 views)

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post #998 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 04:56 PM
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Confirmed that I have a blown tweeter. I put the bad tweeter in the center for now so at least the front will be balanced until the new tweeter shows up.

Ran Trinnov again, and it made some reasonable measurements. Stereo sounds quite good with the "natural" setting.
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post #999 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 05:14 PM
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OK, posting now works on website. Attached as well.

 

R972_Trinnov_Application_Note_V1.1.pdf 15.021484375k . file
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File Type: pdf R972_Trinnov_Application_Note_V1.1.pdf (15.0 KB, 8 views)

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post #1000 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 05:32 PM
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FYI, the document shows up as a bunch of font-sized rectangles with question marks inside of them.

At least when using OSX Lion.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait

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post #1001 of 3216 Old 01-27-2012, 05:51 PM
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Link is fine on a PC/Windows7/chrome.
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post #1002 of 3216 Old 02-03-2012, 10:41 AM
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I'm hoping someone can help me with an R-972 HDMI question.

I know the R-972 is built to HDMI 1.3a specs. If I connect an HDMI 1.4 device to it, with output to an HDMI 1.4 monitor, all with cabling sufficient to support 1.4 features, what 1.4 features will work?

I assume audio return is a non-starter, because the R-972 doesn't know to look for audio return.

Ethernet to the monitor also seems unlikely to work (not that I've heard of any monitors that accept ethernet over HDMI 1.4 anyway).

What about 3D? Will it work under any circumstances?

How about 4K video (assume my source is 4K, and all I need the R-972 to do is process the audio, sending the video signal as is to a 4K-compatible monitor)?

I'd really like to try Trinnov out, and with the R-972 as the only consumer-level option out there, I'm trying to decide whether I can live with any limitations from the HDMI 1.3a spec to which it is built (answer: I certainly can live with those limitations now, but it's conceivable that I might want 4K video in the next few years, and possibly 3D).

The alternative is to wait for Outlaw to possibly produce the 998 processor with Trinnov, but it's hard to know whether that will ever come to fruition, or the timetable for its release even if it does ever come out. Or, I suppose, for some currently unknown project to be released that includes Trinnov in a consumer-level processor or receiver.
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post #1003 of 3216 Old 02-03-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawtalker View Post

I'm hoping someone can help me with an R-972 HDMI question.

I know the R-972 is built to HDMI 1.3a specs. If I connect an HDMI 1.4 device to it, with output to an HDMI 1.4 monitor, all with cabling sufficient to support 1.4 features, what 1.4 features will work?

I assume audio return is a non-starter, because the R-972 doesn't know to look for audio return.

Ethernet to the monitor also seems unlikely to work (not that I've heard of any monitors that accept ethernet over HDMI 1.4 anyway).

What about 3D? Will it work under any circumstances?

This is one of the reasons I bought the Oppo 93. It has dual HDMI outputs, so you can send one directly to your HDMI 1.4 monitor and the other to your receiver for sound. You could also use the digital coax/optical out of your source for sound.

The only real feature you lose with the R-972 being HDMI 1.3 is the ability to use it as an HDMI switch for HDMI 1.4 sources. I figured I could deal with that. Worst case is that I would need a separate HDMI 1.4 switch if I end up with enough HDMI 1.4 sources. Right now, my projector isn't 3D, so it doesn't matter.
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post #1004 of 3216 Old 02-03-2012, 11:27 AM
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Thanks. That's certainly one option.

My issue is that TV is connected to the rest of my system with a long, in-wall HDMI cable. A single long, in-wall HDMI cable. So I would need, at least, a separate 1.4 switch, to allow routing of more than one source to the TV.

My other issue is that I've set things up to be as simple as possible for my wife, and the switch would complicate things. I can't use an automatic switch that merely routes the active HDMI signal to the output, because one of my sources is a TiVo, and the TiVo is always on, and always has an active HDMI signal.

So I think I would need a switch that can be controlled via remote (I don't want to set things up so that a manual switch has to be turned every time we switch video sources). I assume such a thing exists, but it would add another layer of complexity to the programming of my Harmony remote. Also, adding another device to the HDMI path worries me, given that I'm already using a 35-foot HDMI cable to get to the TV (and I've read that Sherwood at least claims that anything over 25-feet can be problematic with the R-972).

If the R-972 is capable of passing through a video signal without touching it, then even if the R-972 doesn't understand 4k or 3D, it would be able switch those sorts of signals. So what I'm wondering is whether that's possible.
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post #1005 of 3216 Old 02-03-2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawtalker View Post


So I think I would need a switch that can be controlled via remote (I don't want to set things up so that a manual switch has to be turned every time we switch video sources). I assume such a thing exists, but it would add another layer of complexity to the programming of my Harmony remote. Also, adding another device to the HDMI path worries me, given that I'm already using a 35-foot HDMI cable to get to the TV (and I've read that Sherwood at least claims that anything over 25-feet can be problematic with the R-972).

If the R-972 is capable of passing through a video signal without touching it, then even if the R-972 doesn't understand 4k or 3D, it would be able switch those sorts of signals. So what I'm wondering is whether that's possible.

I'm currently using a 35-ft HDMI cable, and everything works fine. A switch can definitely cause problems though. I tried an inexpensive switch once, and it wouldn't pass 1080p. I haven't tried them, but there are a variety of HDMI signal boosters. There are also wireless HDMI transmitters that aren't that expensive. There should be a solution out there that would work for you.
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post #1006 of 3216 Old 02-03-2012, 03:29 PM
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The last R972 firmware update before I left Sherwood at the end of 2010 did enable 3D over HDMI when the scaling in the receiver was set to bypass. Check the firmware installed in your R-972 and/or check with (Jin at sherwoodamerica dot) com for the latest versions and update instructions.

Jeff
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post #1007 of 3216 Old 02-04-2012, 07:50 AM
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Thanks, Jeff. I think it's great that you still post such good information here, even though you've left (though I guess you're still an R-972 owner, right?).

Now a Trinnov question... I'm wondering how much Trinnov magic I can expect with my room set-up:

7.1, close to symmetrical, with LCR speakers fairly well placed, though the LR angles are not as wide as would be ideal. The primary listening location (couch) is about 20 feet away, and the room isn't wide enough to get the LR speakers anywhere close to 22.5 degrees out. The LR have their tweeters at about ear level, and the C is a few feet higher, above the TV.

The bigger issues are with my surrounds and rears. My surrounds are well forward of and above our couch - maybe 8 feet forward and about 5 feet above. The rears are about two feet behind and two feet up.

All the speakers are monopoles, and none are toed in to the listening spot (nor can they be - they are mostly in-wall, except the surrounds, which are on-wall, and none of them are directable).

I doubt this setup will be ever be close to ideal for true 7.1 sound, even with Trinnov spatial correction. But I am thinking that Trinnov should be able to do quite a bit with 5.1 sound, using the rear surrounds to pull the surround sound back several feet.

Is that a reasonable expectation?

For those curious, the speakers are all from Axiom Audio. LR are M22s, center is VP100, surrounds are M0s, and rears are M2s. All are in-wall except the M0s, which are on-walls. Right now, I'm driving all of these with an Outlaw 1070.
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post #1008 of 3216 Old 02-04-2012, 02:46 PM
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lawtalker:

Having given hundreds of Trinnov demos, I believe it has the ability to transform your listening experience. It will give all speakers the same voice, put the center speaker on the same plane as the L/R speakers and will move the surround image to the proper horizontal angles.

As for not being able to toe the speakers in so their tweeters aim at the measurement location, the reason this is an issue is that Trinnov will be measuring the off axis sound from the tweeters. This means the highest frequencies will be under represented in the before curves and the end results may be too bright. There are two corrections built into the R-972 to reduce the highs: 1) The Natural playback curve has some high frequency roll-off built in. 2) If the natural roll-off is not enough for your room and listening position, simply engage the Cinema EQ and you should have the highest frequencies should be back in balance.

Jeff
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post #1009 of 3216 Old 02-04-2012, 02:56 PM
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Jeff,

I know you don't work for them anymore, but since you have some deep knowledge and are still running the 972...

Let's say I want a basic 5.1 setup, don't care much about video processing (I'll pass it through), in your experience are there any remaining bugs to getting setup?
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post #1010 of 3216 Old 02-04-2012, 04:58 PM
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My R-972 is in daily use in the family theater. When using HDMI as a source, and that's the only way I use it, HDMI from a Dish receiver, HTPC and Blu-ray player, the picture shows up 5 seconds before the sound. This is a minor annoyance when using the Dish DVR as we may have to hit the skip-back-10-second button when we skip commercials.

Jeff
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post #1011 of 3216 Old 02-05-2012, 09:01 AM
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Jeff, is that somehow related to running audio through HDMI? If I, say, run audio through optical and video through HDMI, will I experience the same 5 seconds issue with a TiVo after skipping commercials?
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post #1012 of 3216 Old 02-05-2012, 10:15 AM
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lawtalker:

I think you are correct. The audio delay was required to be certain that some HDMI audio switching noise was muted before the HDMI audio was enabled. From my memory, audio over SPDIF did not have the same lag.

Jeff
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post #1013 of 3216 Old 02-06-2012, 06:54 AM
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I installed my replacement tweeter, and now Trinnov locates all of the speakers correctly.

I don't understand what it is trying to do with the surround speakers. If I play the 7.1 test tones from the Disney WOW disc, the rear surrounds are much louder than the side surrounds. When I play a movie or 5.1 music, everything sounds about right. Is the difference in levels due to Trinnov "relocating" my surrounds?

Where does Trinnov think the surrounds should be? I know it puts the fronts at 22.5 degrees for movies and 30 degrees for music.

My speakers are approximately in the THX recommended locations.
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post #1014 of 3216 Old 02-06-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanD View Post

I don't understand what it is trying to do with the surround speakers. If I play the 7.1 test tones from the Disney WOW disc, the rear surrounds are much louder than the side surrounds. When I play a movie or 5.1 music, everything sounds about right. Is the difference in levels due to Trinnov "relocating" my surrounds?

The levels are not emphasized by remapping. You can confirm this by going to "Trinnov Spatial Mode" menu and selecting None.

Aside from the Wow disc, have you tried the 972's internal test tones? Or do you have the AIX test disc?

Roger

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post #1015 of 3216 Old 02-06-2012, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The levels are not emphasized by remapping. You can confirm this by going to "Trinnov Spatial Mode" menu and selecting None.

Aside from the Wow disc, have you tried the 972's internal test tones? Or do you have the AIX test disc?

I need to play with it a little more to see what it is doing. I'll try turning Trinnov off versus the DLY+LVL setting and see what it does.

I think I have another Blu-Ray test disc. I have the Oppo set to LPCM because I was having trouble getting any sound from the rear surrounds with it set to bitstream. The internal R-972 test tones don't work if Trinnov is turned on.
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post #1016 of 3216 Old 02-06-2012, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

lawtalker:

I think you are correct. The audio delay was required to be certain that some HDMI audio switching noise was muted before the HDMI audio was enabled. From my memory, audio over SPDIF did not have the same lag.

Jeff

Jeff, obviously up to you, but you might want to try running your Dish DVR audio through an optical connection to your R-972. If, in fact, that avoids the 5 second delayed audio issue, the "minor annoyance" you noted when commercial skipping might disappear.
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post #1017 of 3216 Old 02-18-2012, 05:51 PM
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Hello, I just ordered one from A4L at a great price. I'm all for SQ and it looks like this baby is still doing it. It also looks like the bugs have been worked out.

I hope the setup won't be too difficult. Any pointers for a new owner? I'll be using the Pre-outs to my amp and with Video processing bypassed to my Kuro.

TIA,
pbjr
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post #1018 of 3216 Old 02-18-2012, 06:46 PM
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That looks like a great deal. Thank you for pointing that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBJunior2 View Post

Hello, I just ordered one from A4L at a great price. I'm all for SQ and it looks like this baby is still doing it. It also looks like the bugs have been worked out.

I hope the setup won't be too difficult. Any pointers for a new owner? I'll be using the Pre-outs to my amp and with Video processing bypassed to my Kuro.

TIA,
pbjr

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post #1019 of 3216 Old 02-18-2012, 11:12 PM
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Can Trinnov EQ 2 subs in different positions or is it limited to only 1 sub?

Vinod
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post #1020 of 3216 Old 02-18-2012, 11:58 PM
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How much does this receiver really weigh? The Secrets review says 40.8 lbs. Another PDF from Sherwood says 46 lbs. The Sherwood website says 27 kg which is almost 60lbs.
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